TopLine Rebuild Questions

[GSXeclipsePSI]

Hey my 1st Engine Build. I have a 6bolt block in a 2g.

I melted a piston due to a injector short. I'm looking to do a stock build with a few bolt-ons.

Block and head are on there way to being at machine shop getting cleaned and cylinder honed due to damage. Is there anything I need to tell him for the parts I'm using. I'm guess I need .020 over pistons.

Need help and explanation

I need some info/feedback on this rebuild kit from Topline
TOPLINE Eclipse Rebuild Kit 4G63 Turbo Pistons 1G 90-92 on eBay.ca (item 190306962036 end time 09-Aug-09 14:43:15 EDT)
*Any parts you wouldn't use from this kit and parts you recommend


I am also looking to get the BSE Kit.
New Timing kit

I have new water pump already and I am rebuilding my head with 272's all other mods are listed in my profile.

I am also getting a wideband and AFPR.

I ran 25psi before and I have ARP head studs. Can I reuse the head studs? What do I need to do to use the old ones.

Piston rings, how do I put them on correctly, if I buy the kit do I need to file them.

ALSO I know people ask this alot but is 30psi too much to ask for out of this build?

 

[bling5tatus]

I have reused the same arps in my motor two or three times (head studs) without much problems. Some people may not agree with doing this, but when you're short on money necessity gets the best of you and makes you try things that aren't generally "correct" in some peoples' books.

Also, if you're going to bore your block to 20 over, you will need to FIRST get the pistons that are 20 over and give them to the machinist w/ the block so that he can properly bore the block to meet the needs of the pistons and the spec sheet for them.

You don't have to buy a BSE kit, you can cut the oil pump shaft and tap into the hollow part and loctite a bolt in there to keep the oil from coming out. If you screw up doing this, don't blame me, but many have done it before with good success. There are a few writeups on how to properly do a BSE elimination. Also, there is a "stub shaft" that, I believe, came out of a galant's oil pump housing from the factory that will work on our cars. This is how some of the vendors are claiming to have an "all oem bse kit"... they're using the stub shaft out of a different mitsubishi. Maybe someone else can add to this.

 

[Rob10_99]

Thats the colt BS on the oil pump if I remember correctly.
Your headstuds are fine as long as the threads aren't bent over, thats why arp's wear out. On their webpage you can see an example of this I think. It takes 3-5 uses for ARP's to really get worn out, so your sounding good on those with only one use. Don't over torque them, leave them in a rag with engine oil.(dont burn your house down like an idiot, keep it on a bench in the open air).
The Topline kit is decent, honestly I would get ACL bearings for it and use the rest, its basically an OEM rebuild kit.

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

OK so I was thinking of upgraded to the ACL bearings also. The guy who sells the kit claims to have done 500 rebuilds with this kit in his machine shop or however he was trying to sell me n it. I mean if Slowboy Racing trusts the parts I'm good.

So if I have light scoring on the walls I'm guessing .020 over. I'll wait for him to tell me what its gonna need to be. He's a one man show this machine shop cause he can't make enough business to keep staff so he's a little slow but he works all hours.I called at 8pm just to get a hour of operation from a answering machine and he was there doing work and been doing it for 30years so I take his word.

He told me $20 a cylinder and he'll clean both head and block for $40

Should I use any type of grease or w.e. you call it on the studs?

What torque should I be doing. I know the 3 step pattern part.

Should I be using different head gasket if I plan on running more boost with a meth kit?

What about piston ring placement? Will the rings need to be gaped in that kit?

 

[bling5tatus]

Rings should not be gapped, that's the reasoning behind giving the pistons to the machinist with the spec sheet when you send the block to be bored.

Unless you are doing something special like trying to run your pistons loose, you should not have to mess with the rings.

As far as the head studs are concerned you're best following the manufacturers instructions for installation.

 

[Rob10_99]

There's plenty of ring gap setups here, it all depends on how much boost your running and how much power your making. Yes your rings need to be gapped.

 

[bling5tatus]

Well I stand corrected, I thought my rings came with a gap in them that could be left alone or widened for special purposes. (.020 wiseco btw)

 

[BogusSVO]

you need to check the ring end gap for each compression ring in each cylinder, and file fit as needed, then put the rings on the pistons.

its better to know than assume.

it should not take more than 30 mins to check ring gap and do any file work that is needed.

most of the performance ring makers will have a formula that you use based of the engine app. of what they recommend for ring gap.
most of the time it is your bore times there factor will equall your end gap.

here is an EXAMPLE, this info is for total seal gapless rings
on there chart locate the engine you are building, 4G63T would fall under "blown, Gas"
so top ring would be borex.007=ring gap and second ring would be bore x.006= ring gap

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

I want to go with a setup that goes as much boost as I can handle without knock.. So I know I can pull 22-25psi without knock..

How can I get to 30-32psi safe ?

And what should I be looking at for ring gap for those boost levels?

 

[BogusSVO]

I want to go with a setup that goes as much boost as I can handle without knock.. So I know I can pull 22-25psi without knock..

How can I get to 30-32psi safe ?

And what should I be looking at for ring gap for those boost levels?

the first thing is get the engine built and running to stock specs, then you can turn up the boost....The main thing will be your ecu tune for the higher boost levels.

As I stated before, check with the ring maker for there ring end gap info.

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

Thanks for the info. I know the tune part I just want to know these will be ok.

Now my hopefully last question is what about main bearings? Should I go ACL for all my bearings? Or is topline fine for the mains and just ACL's for the rods?

 

[BogusSVO]

my personal prefrance is the ACL or Clevite for anything more than stock grocery getter.

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

Thanks for your input.

Now I was trying to make a cam selection. Just got off the phone with scott at Delta Camshafts he said for my setup and what I'm looking for I would wanna run a 280 intake and 272 exhaust. Does this sound good or should I got different route?

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

So pulled the whole engine apart block is in my truck ready to go.

The center main bearing was chewed up pretty good I will post pics. And my piston was BAD!!!

I hate not having the car with me.. I live in a townhouse the car is at my dads in his garage so I gotta take pics and work on it when I feel like going there.

 

[Rob10_99]

I would go with 272's front and back, tons of top end and still has less overlap than that 280 for lower rpms.

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

OK, I figured I would post these pics here 1st before another post.

Ok 1st here is my melted Cyl 1 Piston

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Chewed up Center Main Bearing
(found the metal shavings in the oil pan stuck to oil pick up)

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Timing Side - Thanks to whoever heilcoiled the timing sprocket and a piece of sprocket broke off almost finished taking out my lower timing belt.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

They have to be resurfaced but I can't really afford to replace them but the flywheel and pressure plate have some good HOTT spots.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

And also how is the meat on this clutch disk? Still good should only have like 10k on it

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

In this picture you can see how cyl.1 is way scored compaired to all the other 3.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[FLASH1970]

If you're wanting to run 30-32psi, I'd get a MLS head gasket for sure. I'd rebuild with tri-metal bearings. ACL or Clevite. Take the crank, block and rods to the machinist and he'll tell you what size bearings to get for the mains and rods. They have stock and .010 over bearings I believe. The Topline rebuild kit from what I've read is like doing a factory rebuild. If you plan to run 30 psi, I'd go with stronger rods and pistons. The stock crank should be fine.

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

I know I'm asking for a lot out of those pistons and rods but I do know people have done it close to 30psi.

So the problem is $800 for pistons and rods is a lot of the $1600 I got saved up so far. Are there any other options or piston rod combos you know of at this time that aint crazy priced..

So if I don't go better pistons and rods should I bother with MLS HG or just use provided one. Regardless I'm getting the topline full gasket kit.

I still got to order my valves, cams, afpr and wideband also.

 

[donniekak]

Can you get better pictures of the scored cylinder? How deep are the gouges?

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

that's the best i can really get my camera wont focus on the walls but to the touch they feel really light.. My fingernail just barely gets caught

I'll try in the day time also

 

[FLASH1970]

I know I'm asking for a lot out of those pistons and rods but I do know people have done it close to 30psi.

So the problem is $800 for pistons and rods is a lot of the $1600 I got saved up so far. Are there any other options or piston rod combos you know of at this time that aint crazy priced..

So if I don't go better pistons and rods should I bother with MLS HG or just use provided one. Regardless I'm getting the topline full gasket kit.

I still got to order my valves, cams, afpr and wideband also.

1600 is not nearly enough for a properly done 30psi setup.

If your set on 30 psi, do it once and do it right so you don't have to worry. Trust me.
Maybe see if you can find an already built short block... That might be an option instead of the Topline rebuild.

Do you need the car running any time soon?

If your budget is 1600, keep the stock cams and springs and valves. I'd get a 3" exhaust, do a Topline rebuild (copper spray the headgasket), get a manual boost controller, a 14B turbo, a 190 pump (avoids having to get an AFPR), Boost gauge, and a wideband. You might be able to squeeze in an SAFC and some bigger injectors out of that 1600 budget. With that budget, the classifieds are your best friend.

 

[Rob10_99]

Wow thats bad!

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

Ok well I already have 550cc Injectors, SAFC and Walbro 255 the rest of my parts are in my profile.

OK so I talked it over with the g/f we can so do $2100 for a built kit..

Topline rebuild kit minus pistons

Wiseco Pistons w/Eagle Rods

Race Rod & Main Bearings

MLS HG

Cams 272's

AFPR

Wideband

I totaled it to be about $2100 with everything.. so I guess an extra $400-500 to save aint bad.

NOW I KNOW IT COMES DOWN TO TUNE... But what can I expect from this setup then?

So does that sound like a good setup then? Screw the topline pistons deal my g/f said she thinks we can save the last bit up.

This setup should do me fine til I can get a bigger turbo, more fuel and dsmlink then I can try for some NASTY power...

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

also my friend I bought the motor from thinks he put ARP's in but he is a ass and just says he built so many he can't remember but they are Allen headed?

So this would make them head bolts?

How can you tell if they are ARP's ?

And so is studs a better way to go?

 

[BogusSVO]

if you have arp studs, they will be stamped ARP on the end, you would have un-done nuts off the top of the head if you have studs. yes studs are better.

remember to have the block checked and decked as needed for the MLS gasket, have the machine shop use a torque plate when you have the block bored/honed

Have the rotating assembly spin balanced.

Here is a good write up about machine work, written by DSMT Wiseman Big Woo

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/303225-engine-machine-work-explained.html

I would say spend the bulk of your budget on the bottom end, and get it right, you can always com back and swap cams later, or if need be do a head swap.