rebuild gone bad... need some answers

[jasonlee]

I had this non-turbo block put together for a guys car at a local engine shop.

its a 6 bolt, with big rods, and .020 oversized 2g pistons. balance shafts removed, and new topline oil pump.

basically I got the engine installed got everything set so the car was running great. took it for the first drive, being pretty gentle on it.

less than 20 miles and a knock develops... and gets worse quick!

engine shop says mains and rod bearings furthest from the oil pump were damaged, he says it looks like the car lost oil pressure.

what could have caused this?? I have a deadling comming up on getting this car finished, but i have to find the source of the problem before putting it all back together

J here is more info on the car:

non turbo block (no oil squirters) balance shafts gone, 16g turbo, fmic, 650cc, oil for turbo coming from head, oil/water cooler (factory)

J

 

[BISHILVR]

The junk topline oil pump is the prime suspect. Its a gamble if you will get a good one or not.

 

[Slowboy]

The junk topline oil pump is the prime suspect. Its a gamble if you will get a good one or not.

Huh, I use the Topline pump on all of my own cars now for four years, never had an issue.

I would fist ask for the clearances from the machine shop.

I would then ask you what oil you were using to break in your new motor?

Feel free to email or PM me as well..... [email protected]

Mike Huml

 

[FORMONTOYA]

Yes, any "real" engine builder should supply a "build sheet" along with the motor (at the very least, on demand). A list of all the parts, clearances, issues and the like. It could be any one or a number of things done or not done that caused the problem.

Assembly lube on ALL bearing surfaces...pack the oil pump....clearance issues (mentioned).....improper torque....piss poor block cleaning, etc.

Did you disable the ignition/fuel and give it the 5-10 second crank burst a couple of times to further insure oil pressure? It's probably still running the factory oil pressure gauge.....what was going on?

The bad thing about all of this is that I can find 100 engine builders (here in Houston). Out of that 75 of them wouldn't touch anything except a "run of the mill" domestic V8. 20 of the rest may or may not know what's going on, and if they did it would probably be Honda related. And then the remaining 5 would be able to get the job done right the first time without issue.

Mechanics = doctors......when you find a good one, you stick with him for a long time.



Since Mike is offering to be extremely helpful.....

 

[jasonlee]

ok, just got off the phone with the guy. I gave him a little more info, and he gave me a little also.

I told him before i did anything once i heard the noise i did a compression test.. 1&4 were just over 120, and 2&3 were right about 150... to me that says not good.

also when i drained the oil, it was very thin, and smelled gassy.. i was thinking a lot of blowby...

then he tells me, (I paid for .020 stock pistons btw) that those ring in 1&4 were a bit torn up so he ordered new ones, and tells me he "thought about" honing the cylinders before he put it together, but "thought" they would be ok. that tells me he probably didnt get oversized pistons either... WTF! he didnt hone the cylinders??? duh! looks like its time to find a new engine builder...

the worst part about it is, he is just finishing up my race engine, but thats another topic....

so, could the blowby/thinned out oil be the culprit?

 

[groundPork]

ok, just got off the phone with the guy. I gave him a little more info, and he gave me a little also.

I told him before i did anything once i heard the noise i did a compression test.. 1&4 were just over 120, and 2&3 were right about 150... to me that says not good.

also when i drained the oil, it was very thin, and smelled gassy.. i was thinking a lot of blowby...

then he tells me, (I paid for .020 stock pistons btw) that those ring in 1&4 were a bit torn up so he ordered new ones, and tells me he "thought about" honing the cylinders before he put it together, but "thought" they would be ok. that tells me he probably didnt get oversized pistons either... WTF! he didnt hone the cylinders??? duh! looks like its time to find a new engine builder...

the worst part about it is, he is just finishing up my race engine, but thats another topic....

so, could the blowby/thinned out oil be the culprit?

That kind of stuff is always very hard to diagnose (experienced pro or not). The damage is usually so bad that usual tell tale signes are often skewed by the sever damage. You case is getting pretty close. some odd things I notice... upper edges of the lower bearing shells are beaten out!!! usually if something gets beaten out it's cause of detonation. Wonder if the bearing caps were mixed up or maybe installed backwords. I could see too much fuel over a long period of time allowing the bearings to gall like that, but it's rare, especially if the idle maps and AFR are still controlled by the stock ECU. As far aas lack of clearance... did the bearings spin in the rods? What are the condition of the mains... if fuel wash was the culprit they'd likely show signs as well.

as far as the statements he made.... I don't know that I'd want to go back either.

 

[groundPork]

so there is no confusion in regards to my comment on beaten out bearings being caused by detonation... I was not implying the flatened upper edges of his lower bearing shell got that way from detonation... I was pointing out the very odd location of such severe pressure damage.

 

[groundPork]

one other thing... oil starvation usually shows a lot of discoloration.. and I can't really make it out in the pics. perhaps some clearer side shots might be in order?

 

[TSIfreek]

Oil stavation = more heat and when this happens the bearing caps get extremly hot and discolor blue/black on the surface. How did the mains look?? Oil from the mains feeds the rod bearings. A problem like you have in a short period is a sighn of assemby/ clearance issues. You see this happen alot reusing the stock rods from not reconditiong them fully and fautly assemby.

 

[XtremeRS2gnt]

When any engine builder says that the cylinders "look ok" to not hone them for new rings, that's a true sign to get rid of that guy! I've built quite a few engines now, and i'm by no means a professional engine builder, but damn, there are some simple guidelines to go by when assembling an engine. Everyone here has given great suggestions as to what could have happened, and the fact is that there are a myraid of issues that could have caused it, esp if your engine builder is somewhat careless. Was the crank turned, or even polished for new bearings? Did he measure bearing oil clearance on ALL journals before final assembly? I suppose an inexperienced builder could get the bearing caps on backwards, but if he payed attention on disassembly, he would notice that the bearing tabs are on the same side of the rod, for the lower and upper halves. Did you prime the engine before starting it? Once it was started, what was the oil pressure gauge reading? When i first start up a new eninge, in the first few seconds, my eyes are glued to the oil pressure gauge, and if something isnt right the engine gets shut down immeadately! The assembly lube should protect the bearing for a few seconds if no oil pressure is evident. I wonder if the guy even used assembly lube on them..soo many mistakes could have been made..its hard to say for sure what caused it..

 

[BISHILVR]

Thats oil starvation in those pics. I would almost bet on it.