Dual valve springs and stock retainers???

[v8s_are_slow]

I have Comp 101400 cams with 1mm oversized valves, dual valve springs, and titanium retainers. I guess the springs weren't shimmed to match my cams and the ends of the rockers have been riding on the retainers and chewed 4 of the retainers up. Need to get my car up and running and currently, money is tight. So looking at my options...

Option #1, Put on some stock cams and stock retainers (off of another head I have laying around with bent valves) for now and not worry about getting springs shimmed. (free)
Option #2, Stock retainers on dual valve springs, get springs shimmed, and keep the Comp cams on it, or.... (lil money)
Option #3, Replace titanium retainers and get springs shimmed properly with Comp cams. (can't afford this right now)

Is option 1 or 2 do-able? Can stock retainers hold the pressure of dual valve springs? Thanks in advance for replies....

 

[Defiant]

You could pick up the car with stock retainers.
You need to find out what's going on with your lifter geometry. How the devil much lift are those things running? I don't see how shimming the springs would affect where the lifter rides.

 

[nitrouskris]

Is option 1 or 2 do-able? Can stock retainers hold the pressure of dual valve springs? Thanks in advance for replies....

you can do it. we have but i DO NOT like too.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Stock retainers will hold the springs but like Defiant said, why in the world where you rocker arms riding like that. I would recheck everything before reassembly.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Went to the machine shop today as he was checking over the head. Apparently, the springs aren't shimmed right. The cams are making the lifters bottom out and the valves aren't closing all the way.

This head was built by FFWD but it was back around the year 2000 and cams this big weren't around at that time. Head was stll brand new when I got it and threw it on this year.

I have a 2.3 liter and T67 turbo with smim, etc. etc. I'm wondering if stock valves would gimme some bottom end power yet still keep an outrageous top end. I mean I'm shifting at close to 8k anyway and the 1mm oversized valves with smim would be good for the topend right? What do ya'll think about this if I tried goin with the stock cams versus Comp 101400's?

 

[v8s_are_slow]

you can do it. we have but i DO NOT like too.

Why not?

 

[GVR4592]

Can you get a picture of the rocker making contact with the retainer, I'm trying to get a mental picture of how that could happen but it's not happening. I think it's either a lifter problem or a valve installed height problem, although installed height would have to be way off in order for something like that to happen.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Well the lifters are brand new 3rd gen lifters and of course everything else on the head was/is new. Sorry, my digi cam is down right now at the moment. I'm thinking the shim is too thick and so everything's really close to the cam and so it pushes it way down compared to what some 272's would've done. The shim on the bottom of the spring looks like it's between 1/4 to 1/2 inch tall.

Any opinions on the stock cams with my setup though?

 

[GVR4592]

The thick shim on the bottom is normal for most dual spring setups. Regardless of the shim, the location of the retainer won't change unless the valve installed height changes. It doesn't seem likely that it's a valvespring issue.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Hmmm, well how could you change the install height? Is there different length valves for our cars? I mean I'd think when it's closed, the height would be the same regardless. I dunno. If I threw on stock cams, this wouldn't still be an issue would it?

I'd think the location of the retainer would make a difference if it's getting pushed down further because of the cam. Thus, the lifter standing on it's edge and chewing it up???

 

[GVR4592]

I'm getting lost here. Are you saying that the valvespring is compressing too much and allowing the rocker arm to hit the retainer?

 

[Defiant]

The shim on the bottom of the spring looks like it's between 1/4 to 1/2 inch tall.

Holy crap, it ain't no ½".
If that's the closest you can eyeball, we require pictures.
I don't get why you're hung-up on shims. The geometry is going to be the same even if there's no springs in there.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

I'm getting lost here. Are you saying that the valvespring is compressing too much and allowing the rocker arm to hit the retainer?

Yep, that's pretty much what I'm saying.

 

[GVR4592]

Ok as Defiant said the spring has no bearing on the geometry and that's what I was trying to say before. The spring has no affect on the position of the retainer, when the valve is closed or open.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Alright, well what should I look into correcting to fix this problem?

If I just swap out to the stock spring and retainers with stock cams, would this fix the problem? Or does the valve height need to be changed? Although I'm not sure how that could be changed cause when it's closed, it's closed, so dunno how the height could be changed. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[defrag010]

The stem installed height can be changed depending on how much is ground off of the valve face and seat face, along with how physically tall the stem is above the key grooves. If you do a valve job and cut alot off of the seats and valve faces, you can add quite a bit to the stem installed height. Your local machine shop can do this, and they can also fix it. Springs have zero affect on retainer height and valvetrain geometry.

What you need to do is take the head (with the cams) to a machine shop and tell them to fix it.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

K, thanks for the info. Now the trouble of deciding which cam I wanna go with. Stock or the Comp 101400's.

By getting all this fixed, is the cam I go with dependant on this? Since right now I've have the Comp cams in it, could going with a stock cam eliminate having to do this?

 

[defrag010]

Cams also have nothing to do with the lifter contacting the retainer. As long as your rocker geometry is right, and you have enough spring for your cam, you can run any cam you want.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Well, I don't know how the lifter would be contacting the retainer. Lol.

But anyway, I've decided to take a head that I have laying around with bent valves and use the springs and retainers off it and throw on some stock cams. Gonna see how fast I can get these stock cams. I'd like to hold SOME kinda record since I'm sure I won't be beating Shep, or have the fastest 14b record etc. Fastest on stock cams I'd hope to be able to capture

 

[GVR4592]

Well, I don't know how the lifter would be contacting the retainer. Lol.

But anyway, I've decided to take a head that I have laying around with bent valves and use the springs and retainers off it and throw on some stock cams. Gonna see how fast I can get these stock cams. I'd like to hold SOME kinda record since I'm sure I won't be beating Shep, or have the fastest 14b record etc. Fastest on stock cams I'd hope to be able to capture

Can you just post up some pictures?

 

[defrag010]

sorry, by fingers typed lifters but my brain meant rockers

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Can you just post up some pictures?

I'll try and post some up here shortly of what happened. I have to get my digi cam from my stepdad since mine stopped working. But incase I didn't already mention it, the valve height looks to be the cause.

Going with the stock cams but just trying to find the fastest times on stock cams....cause I wanna beat it. Fastest I see right now is Danl at 11.5's.

 

[Black95TSIawd]

i spoke with someone at slowboy in regards to upgraded springs on the stock retainers. He said it was fine as long as you dont rev up passed 8k. I mentioned fp2x cams and he said the same, just dont rev over 8.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Well, I have a 2.3L stroker so don't plan on going over that. But thanks.

 

[toybreaker]

Just a quick word of caution from the old guy....always check non stock parts combinations for geometry, and for coil bind during pre-assembly, using the pieces you intend to use in their final machined state. You can just assemble one intake and exhaust valve without springs, (or just the inner of a double spring set-up) drop in the the lifter/rocker/cams, and swing the cam lobes past the rocker whilst eyeballing the retainer/guide clearance, and the rocker valve stem tip geometry. You can also measure your installed height at this time and compare it to specs. I keep a set of old jet valve springs around to quicky test the valvetrain combinations I think may be marginal. You can just push them down with your fingers to assemble/dissassemble them.

You will need this measurement anyway (installed height) to test your springs on a bench top tester for coil bind, and installed tension as well.

As was stated before, installed height is determined by how much was cut from the cylinder head's valve seat, and then how much was taken from the valve face, and then how much the valve stem's top tip was ground to re-correct the installed height "seen" by the rocker tip. No spring/shim involvement Only the retainer thickness could affect installed height and/or rocker clearance. Some of the aftermarket retainers have a different cross-sectionional thickness.

A few things come to mind as to your rocker/retainer contact....

One possibility is the machine shop took too much off the valve face, and had to compensate on the valve stem tip by grinding an excessive amount off the stem tip. You wouldn't think it would happen, but I've seen it a couple of times. Shops get busy, and the new guy does the dirty work,..and the next thing you know .020" is "missing" WTF It's usually visually appearant if you place a virgin valve next to one of yours. Were your valves pitted, requiring a deeper face cut, or were they even faced at all?

The danger in removing too much material from the stem tip is that the keeper groove/stem tip dimension shrinks when the stem tip is cut, effectively moving the keepers, and therefore the retainer closer to the stem tip. At some point, the rocker will now contact the retainer at the extremes of it's motion. Especially if you're running a bumpier cam.

Another possibility is that your valve train has some abnormal wear on the rocker contact pads from the increased valve spring pressure. Again, a comparison with a virgin rocker would tell the tale.

And, a final possibility is that you've got a combination of things conspiring to give you grief. A lil' too little keeper/stem tip length, a little different location/thickness on the retainer, and a little bumpier cam giving a little more extreme operating range/angle on the rocker/retainer interface.

Good luck, and please post some pics!