Fuel delivery/return hard lines

[Ludachris]

Like many other DSMers, I installed a steel braided fuel feed line from the pump to the rail to ensure I had enough volume. I used a -6 line. At some point here I'm going to be modifying my fuel system, adding a surge tank and changing over to E85. I might also use this time to swap out my steel braided line with a hard line to save a little weight and possibly go a little bit bigger.

What size would be sufficient? Any recommendations on flaring tools/other tools to do the job? I have a decent line bender. Anything else I should consider when doing hard lines?

 

[Gamble97]

Get some lightweight hoses then. I got mine from here, the black ones and they are so much easier to put the ends on and a lot lighter.
Race Parts Plumbing, Performance AN Hose Fitting, Fuel Management
Lightweight Hoses - Race Plumbing

 

[99gst_racer]

1/2" line should be large enough. I'd recommend buying a coil of aluminum hard line for the job.

All of the major plumbing companies (Aeroquip, XRP, Earls, Fragola, etc...) offer aluminum tubing adapters that utilize a compression ferule, so you don't have to worry about flaring the line.

 

[Ludachris]

1/2" line should be large enough. I'd recommend buying a coil of aluminum hard line for the job.

All of the major plumbing companies (Aeroquip, XRP, Earls, Fragola, etc...) offer aluminum tubing adapters that utilize a compression ferule, so you don't have to worry about flaring the line.

I was under the impression aluminum didn't like ethanol?

 

[Ludachris]

Get some lightweight hoses then. I got mine from here, the black ones and they are so much easier to put the ends on and a lot lighter.
Race Parts Plumbing, Performance AN Hose Fitting, Fuel Management
Lightweight Hoses - Race Plumbing

I also figured the hard line would be a bit cheaper than the braided line and take up less room underneath the car - less chance of snags in the event of an off track excursion at the road course...

 

[Ludachris]

25 ft. of aluminum 1/2" fuel tuning, $22:
Summit SUM-G2512 - Summit® Aluminum Fuel Lines – SummitRacing.com

25 ft. of lightweight -8 braided hose, $137:
-08 Pro Series 200 Double Braided Premium Lightweight Hose only $5.50 - Lightweight Hoses

Ouch.

 

[Gamble97]

For 1 single feed line, you don't need 25 feet.

 

[99gst_racer]

I was under the impression aluminum didn't like ethanol?

That part slipped my mind.

If I were you, I'd still buy the aluminum line, but have it anodized. There's even a few write-ups floating around that show how to anodize at home. But, even if you pay someone to do the anodizing for you, you'd still be cheaper in the long run than going to a braided hose set-up.

 

[rock1t]

That part slipped my mind.

If I were you, I'd still buy the aluminum line, but have it anodized. There's even a few write-ups floating around that show how to anodize at home. But, even if you pay someone to do the anodizing for you, you'd still be cheaper in the long run than going to a braided hose set-up.

And Gamble is right - 15ft is all you would need for a feed line.

Aluminum tends to decompose and rust and corrode with E85, that is why every flex fuel vehicle out there comes with an entire stainless fuel delivery and return system. Also E85 tends to eat away the insides of your engine more than regular gasoline.

 

[Ludachris]

Aluminum tends to decompose and rust and corrode with E85, that is why every flex fuel vehicle out there comes with an entire stainless fuel delivery and return system. Also E85 tends to eat away the insides of your engine more than regular gasoline.

I haven't read about any tests that confirm early engine wear. Can you link to some sources on this?

 

[99gst_racer]

Aluminum tends to decompose and rust and corrode with E85, that is why every flex fuel vehicle out there comes with an entire stainless fuel delivery and return system. Also E85 tends to eat away the insides of your engine more than regular gasoline.

I know alcohol is corrosive to aluminum, that's why I recommended anodizing. Or is there something else I'm missing? Every DSMer out there running an anodized aluminum fuel rail seems to not have issues with E85 and methanol, so I can't figure out how anodized fuel line would be any different.

 

[Ludachris]

For 1 single feed line, you don't need 25 feet.

I'm thinking of doing feed and return.

 

[Ludachris]

Found some Russell anodized lines:
Russell 639273 Aluminum Fuel Line 0.5 in. Tube Size Black
Russell Performance 639270 - Russell Anodized Aluminum Fuel Line – SummitRacing.com

More expensive, but still cheaper than braided line.

 

[rock1t]

I haven't read about any tests that confirm early engine wear. Can you link to some sources on this?

Effects of Alcohol Fuels on Engine Wear.
"For ethanol contaminated with larger amounts of water (i.e., approximately 11% water, 89% ethanol, equivalent to 178 proof ethanol), considerable engine wear will occur, especially during times while the engine is heating up to normal operating temperatures. For example, just after starting the engine, low temperature partial combustion of the water-contaminated ethanol mixture takes place and causes engine wear. This wear, caused by water-contaminated E85, is the result of the combustion process of ethanol, water, and gasoline producing considerable amounts of formic acid (HCOOH, also known as methanoic acid and sometimes written as CH2O2). In addition to the production of formic acid occurring for water-contaminated E85, smaller amounts of acetaldehyde (CH3CHO) and acetic acid (C2H4O2) are also formed for water-contaminated ethanol combustion. Of these partial combustion products, formic acid is responsible for the majority of the rapid increase in engine wear."

Effects of Alcohol Fuels on Engine Wear.

Also, with you forcing me to use the google button, I think that E85 seems to increase engine wear during the start up, and low temp situations. Also you can fix this problem by using the correct fluids that will help nurture your engine along, while running E85

 

[matthewdesigns]

Where is the full text of that document? Is it only available by purchase? Care to post it up somewhere, since you appear to have it? Those links only lead to the abstract/author info.

From the abstract:

This research work has indicated that during low-temperature engine operations such as winter commuter service and warmup, use of pure methanol may result in increased engine wear. This increased wear appears to be primarily a low-temperature problem. With the engine warmed to normal operating temperatures, this increased wear has not been observed. To this point, the research with ethanol-containing fuels has not detected any wear increases.

How much of the supply of e85 is contaminated? I'd guess it's a small amount of fuel contaminated at a lower percentage than 11%. And what was the duration of the test which shows those results you quoted?

Chris, have you already deleted your factory hard lines? There are plenty of folks here (locally) using stock lines and e85, making lots of power. Or is there some reason other than capacity that you want to get rid of them?

 

[Lumix315]

You can't just put this fuel in your non-equipped daily driver and go. If you do, you're going to see excessive wear and premature failure. Period.

About a year and a half ago, I was a car salesman at a Chrylser dealer here in town. While having to go through the "certification" process and learning everything about "my product," there was some information on the E85 equipped vehicles, that these programs covered.

Now, for starters, I'm not clear on the "contaminant" percentage in the fuel, but I am sure that it's a completely different mixture than your regular unleaded gasoline.

Regular unleaded gasoline is 90% "gas" and 10% ethanol. E85 is, self-explanatory enough, 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline and other assorted hydrocarbons. The ratios are clearly different.

Starting with your fuel system and the moving on to your motor:

This explains it the best way I can AND i'm not taking credit for THIS explaination because it didn't come out of my mouth. Instead, it's wikepedia FTW. Here's the link for the entire article: E85 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These were the bits that I felt were relevant to the discussion, and the question at hand, about "wear" characteristics.

"There are a few major differences between FFVs and non-FFVs. One is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel. Fuel injection control systems have a wider range of pulse widths to inject approximately 40% more fuel. Stainless steel fuel lines, sometimes lined with plastic, and stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks are used. In some cases, FFVs use acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used."

Furthermore:

"Depending on composition and source, E85 has an octane rating of 100–105 compared to regular gasoline's typical rating of 85–93. This allows it to be used in higher compression engines which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. Since the reciprocating mass of the engine increases in proportion to the displacement of the engine E85 has a higher potential efficiency for an engine of equal power.

One complication is that use of gasoline in an engine with a high enough compression ratio to use E85 efficiently would likely result in catastrophic failure due to engine detonation, as the octane rating of gasoline is not high enough to withstand the greater compression ratios in use in an engine specifically designed to run on E85. Use of E85 in an engine designed specifically for gasoline would result in a loss of the potential efficiency that it is possible to gain with this fuel. Using E85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiometric fuel ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline. This corresponds to a lower heating value (units of energy per unit mass) for E85 than gasoline. E85 consumes more fuel in flex fuel type vehicles when the vehicle uses the same compression for both E85 and gasoline because of its lower stoichiometric fuel ratio and lower heating value."


You ever wonder why the consumption rate (MPG) changes, in a flexfuel car, when this, "wonderful," reproducable fuel is used instead of plain old gas?? Or why the price of E85, on average, is 15% lower than the latter?

Well, now ya know.

 

[rock1t]

Where is the full text of that document? Is it only available by purchase? Care to post it up somewhere, since you appear to have it? Those links only lead to the abstract/author info.

From the abstract:


How much of the supply of e85 is contaminated? I'd guess it's a small amount of fuel contaminated at a lower percentage than 11%. And what was the duration of the test which shows those results you quoted?

Chris, have you already deleted your factory hard lines? There are plenty of folks here (locally) using stock lines and e85, making lots of power. Or is there some reason other than capacity that you want to get rid of them?

What you highlighted, was only part of the entire document. They said they did not test the engines long enough, and that could of been a problem since they were only running them for a short period of time.

But just google it. Kind of like using the search button on the forums.

 

[matthewdesigns]

You can't just put this fuel in your non-equipped daily driver and go. If you do, you're going to see excessive wear and premature failure. Period....

You ever wonder why the consumption rate (MPG) changes, in a flexfuel car, when this, "wonderful," reproducable fuel is used instead of plain old gas?? Or why the price of E85, on average, is 15% lower than the latter?

The potential performance gains are what's on the line here, not engine longevity. Yes, building from scratch and starting with the 'right' materials is a great idea, but there are locals who have been running e85 on stock fuel systems for years and have yet to see any ill effects. So what's 'right vs wrong' has not been an issue as of yet, or verified by real users. And the issue of reduced fuel economy is not really a concern to those who switch to e85 for the purpose of creating more power, at least it's not for me.

What you highlighted, was only part of the entire document. They said they did not test the engines long enough, and that could of been a problem since they were only running them for a short period of time.

But just google it. Kind of like using the search button on the forums.

Thanks for the sarcasm. I was trying to point out that the abstract contradicts what the article otherwise goes on to state. And I did google the title of the paper, and what I get is the abstract, and an invitation to purchase the entire paper. Which is why I asked if you would make the full text available to us here, because you obviously have it, as your quote is not within the abstract.

 

[Lumix315]

The potential performance gains are what's on the line here, not engine longevity. Yes, building from scratch and starting with the 'right' materials is a great idea, but there are locals who have been running e85 on stock fuel systems for years and have yet to see any ill effects. So what's 'right vs wrong' has not been an issue as of yet, or verified by real users. And the issue of reduced fuel economy is not really a concern to those who switch to e85 for the purpose of creating more power, at least it's not for me.

Oh, well yeah, I'd say that's Fair enough . I totally understand the reason for using E85 in these cars.

Personally, I don't like this "alternative" fuel, but that's neither here nor there.

I haven't read about any tests that confirm early engine wear. Can you link to some sources on this?

I, merely, posted what I did to help answer this big guy's question.

Plus, it's a nice reference piece if you ever need it in the future.

 

[Ludachris]

Alright guys, let's save the premature wear for another discussion. This is not for use in a daily driver. This is a track car that gets driven on the street once in a long while. I'm really not too concerned about the premature wear with the low miles I put on the car every year.

Back on topic now please.

 

[Ludachris]

Chris, have you already deleted your factory hard lines? There are plenty of folks here (locally) using stock lines and e85, making lots of power. Or is there some reason other than capacity that you want to get rid of them?

Since this is a road race application, I just want to make sure I have more than enough capacity.

 

[wishihadatalon]

You can't just put this fuel in your non-equipped daily driver and go. If you do, you're going to see excessive wear and premature failure. Period.

About a year and a half ago, I was a car salesman at a Chrylser dealer here in town. While having to go through the "certification" process and learning everything about "my product," there was some information on the E85 equipped vehicles, that these programs covered.

Now, for starters, I'm not clear on the "contaminant" percentage in the fuel, but I am sure that it's a completely different mixture than your regular unleaded gasoline.

Regular unleaded gasoline is 90% "gas" and 10% ethanol. E85 is, self-explanatory enough, 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline and other assorted hydrocarbons. The ratios are clearly different.

Starting with your fuel system and the moving on to your motor:

This explains it the best way I can AND i'm not taking credit for THIS explaination because it didn't come out of my mouth. Instead, it's wikepedia FTW. Here's the link for the entire article: E85 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These were the bits that I felt were relevant to the discussion, and the question at hand, about "wear" characteristics.

"There are a few major differences between FFVs and non-FFVs. One is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel. Fuel injection control systems have a wider range of pulse widths to inject approximately 40% more fuel. Stainless steel fuel lines, sometimes lined with plastic, and stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks are used. In some cases, FFVs use acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used."

Furthermore:

"Depending on composition and source, E85 has an octane rating of 100–105 compared to regular gasoline's typical rating of 85–93. This allows it to be used in higher compression engines which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. Since the reciprocating mass of the engine increases in proportion to the displacement of the engine E85 has a higher potential efficiency for an engine of equal power.

One complication is that use of gasoline in an engine with a high enough compression ratio to use E85 efficiently would likely result in catastrophic failure due to engine detonation, as the octane rating of gasoline is not high enough to withstand the greater compression ratios in use in an engine specifically designed to run on E85. Use of E85 in an engine designed specifically for gasoline would result in a loss of the potential efficiency that it is possible to gain with this fuel. Using E85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiometric fuel ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline. This corresponds to a lower heating value (units of energy per unit mass) for E85 than gasoline. E85 consumes more fuel in flex fuel type vehicles when the vehicle uses the same compression for both E85 and gasoline because of its lower stoichiometric fuel ratio and lower heating value."


You ever wonder why the consumption rate (MPG) changes, in a flexfuel car, when this, "wonderful," reproducable fuel is used instead of plain old gas?? Or why the price of E85, on average, is 15% lower than the latter?

Well, now ya know.

Huh? The price is lower because the government subsidizes it.

Chris, don't let these people discourage you. If you are worried about water contamination, just get some Stabil Marine fuel stabilizer. It is for high ethanol content fuel and worked perfect for my wifes car sitting over winter.

 

[Lumix315]

Huh? The price is lower because the government subsidizes it.

Chris, don't let these people discourage you. If you are worried about water contamination, just get some Stabil Marine fuel stabilizer. It is for high ethanol content fuel and worked perfect for my wifes car sitting over winter.

MAYBE...but I don't think subsidize is the word you're looking for here.

E85 burns faster than gasoline, therefore, you're going to go through it faster and more often. It's, simply, cheaper than gasoline to offset the cost of frequent use in an attempt to make it a more "efficient" or "cheaper" alternative to gasoline.

And.. I meant NO discouragement, to Chris, in my post. If anyone wants to run E85, then go for it. I'm not going to lose sleep over it. BUT...atleast you know what the effects of using it will eventually lead you to.

To each his own. I'll stick with good ol' fashioned gasoline.

 

[Hal]

This is the flaring tool I use:

RIDGID 41162 Model 377 Ratchet Flaring Tool - Toolup.com

E85 will be fine in aluminum hard lines without anodizing. People have been running it for years without anodizing the oem fuel rail which is aluminum.

Hal

 

[rock1t]

MAYBE...but I don't think subsidize is the word you're looking for here.

E85 burns faster than gasoline, therefore, you're going to go through it faster and more often. It's, simply, cheaper than gasoline to offset the cost of frequent use in an attempt to make it a more "efficient" or "cheaper" alternative to gasoline.

And.. I meant NO discouragement, to Chris, in my post. If anyone wants to run E85, then go for it. I'm not going to lose sleep over it. BUT...atleast you know what the effects of using it will eventually lead you to.

To each his own. I'll stick with good ol' fashioned gasoline.

You have to also look at what america's number 1 export is; agriculture. Since we can produce corn, and lots of it, we create E85 or a mixture of pure grain corn alcohol (85%) and a little bit of gasoline (15%).