Please take a look at these valves

[sonicnofadz]

I'm in the middle of a complete head rebuild, and I've ran into a bit of a problem. I've tried soaking the exhaust valves in several different types of carbeurator cleaners and the carbon deposits on the bottoms of the valves STILL WON'T COME OFF. My wire wheel can't take the stuff off, it seems as if its completely solidified, almost like it were made of metal itself. Below are a few pics of two of my exhaust valves. I would REALLY like to reuse them because they are in perfect condition, however I'm not sure what will happen if I stick them back in and DON'T clean there bottom side (will it cause detonation ???). Their top sides are all nice and clean, and seal nicely with the valve seats, so that shouldn't be an issue. What should I do? Have a machine shop polish them? Use some other type of chemical to soak them in?

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[laserRSawd]

did you use a wire wheel on a bench grinder? A machine shop should be able to clean them up

 

[sonicnofadz]

No it wasn't a bench grinder, it was a black and decker drill capable of up to 2,500 rpm. Maybe I should use something that can go faster? A die grinder is capable of speeds up to like 30,000 rpm, would this be enough ? Is there some type of specific valve cleaning fluid I should also invest in? I would really rather do the polishing myself since most of the shops around here charge $5.00 per valve.

 

[laserRSawd]

yeay try the die grinder on them, or find someone that has a bench grinder.

 

[Suparata]

Originally posted by sonicnofadz
No it wasn't a bench grinder, it was a black and decker drill capable of up to 2,500 rpm. Maybe I should use something that can go faster? A die grinder is capable of speeds up to like 30,000 rpm, would this be enough ? Is there some type of specific valve cleaning fluid I should also invest in? I would really rather do the polishing myself since most of the shops around here charge $5.00 per valve.

Would you be willing to tell us what exactly is it you are doing to have the head completely rebuilt ? How many miles on it?
Thanks.

 

[sonicnofadz]

The head gasket blew, and while I have the head off I just thought I'd make sure everything was rebuilt back to new.

 

[sonicnofadz]

Oh yeah, the car has almost 100k.

 

[Suparata]

How is everything going to be rebuilt back to new if you do not even want to recondition the valves after 100K? What about cleaning, guides, valve seats and surface?
I was really hoping you will tell us what and how exactly you intend to do? You think you can do that?
Thanks
Mitch.

 

[sonicnofadz]

Everything already has been done. The head has been resurfaced, tanked, there isn't excessive play between the valves and the guides, new seals are in. The ONLY thing left is valves. I've already spent alot of money and I was wondering if I could somehow clean the valves myself. The springs were also tested, and were found to be within spec. I think I'm just going to take a die grinder to them, although I was wondering if there was any type of strong cleaner that would help with the process. I honestly don't know why you must know what else I'm doing to my head to know how to clean the valves. I simply want to find out if anyone here knows an effective way to clean the valves themselves.

 

[turbowop]

Glass bead blasting should do the trick.

 

[Defiant]

A $30 bench grinder from Harbor Freight and a new wire wheel would make short work of it. A 2500 rpm Black and Decker is a joke.

And yes, glass-bead blasting would be best of all. Or, just leave it to your machinist to do.

Don't breath the dust that comes off. Vanadium and other nasty salts there.

 

[Suparata]

Originally posted by sonicnofadz
Everything already has been done. The head has been resurfaced, tanked, there isn't excessive play between the valves and the guides, new seals are in. The ONLY thing left is valves. I've already spent alot of money and I was wondering if I could somehow clean the valves myself. The springs were also tested, and were found to be within spec. I think I'm just going to take a die grinder to them, although I was wondering if there was any type of strong cleaner that would help with the process. I honestly don't know why you must know what else I'm doing to my head to know how to clean the valves. I simply want to find out if anyone here knows an effective way to clean the valves themselves.

I wanted to know what else has been done on the head because I'm blown away by the fact that you think you can just clean the valves yourself and you have the nerve to say that you are doing a "complete head rebuild" to "make sure everything was rebuilt back to new"! Where did you learn that rebuilding a head is a DIY kind of deal? Just to give you an idea what a valve needs to be reconditioned take a look at a valve that has been slightly touched on the face to show why it needed to be refaced. http://www.engintecs.com/gallery/album14/Toyotavalve
I wonder who is the hungry SOB who even agreed to work on your head without doing the right thing! How did he checked the guides without having the valves cleaned and measured ? What does "excessive play" mean to you? WHAT IS THE CLEARANCE ?
http://www.engintecs.com/gallery/Shop/100OLYMP_P4180007_P4180007
http://www.engintecs.com/gallery/album14/100OLYMP_P4180010_P4180010
How did he machined the seats without using the reconditioned valves as a reference?
http://www.engintecs.com/gallery/album14/Seats_faces2
I can tell you just by looking at your valves that they are not getting rid of the heat as they should because of both improper contact with the seat and loose guides. Just take a look at the heat marks going up the stem. If you think that after 100K miles your valves, seats and guides are still in good condition you are a very optimistic guy.
And you guys out there who are giving him advices on how to clean the valves himself why do you do it? Why do you encourage him to do a shity job when he might as well leave them like they are because it doesn't make any difference anyway since he is not going to do what the valves need?
If you cannot afford to pay 80 bucks to have the job done right just walk to work and save some money then do it right. You are saying that you've " already spend a lot of money" and it would be interesting to know how much did you spend to have a shity job done.
It's the same old story that circulate in the DSM community saying that you don't need to recondition your engines because a "stock engine" is capable of making 400+ HP just by throwing more boost at it so you don't have to spend on "unnecessary" things like rebuilding them:just buy thousands of dollars worth of "upgrades" like a loud BOV open to the atmosphere, lowering springs without better shocks, external wastegate on a 16G and other "necessary" things like these!
Sure there are only so many battles than can be fought against public opinion but it is up to you guys with more experience to teach people how to do the things right.
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!
Mitch.

 

[sonicnofadz]

Rebuilding a head can be a DIY project if you have the time, knowledge, tools, and money to do so. I unfortunately don't have any of these things, so I did in fact let the machine shop do most of the work (I disassembled the head of course, but thats about it). I left the entire head, along with all related components (springs, valves, lifters, etc.) at the machine shop. How my machinist measured the play between the guides and the valve stems is beyond my knowledge. He did insist that he take care of the whole valve cleaning and reshaping of the seats. But I thought that maybe to save some cash that I might try just cleaning the valves and then letting him do the rest. So I took the valves home for a day to try to wirebrush them. However, after realizing that I lack the tools to even accomplish this, I think I'll just let the shop take care of the valves =) I really appreciate everyone's advice.

 

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Suparata
And you guys out there who are giving him advices on how to clean the valves himself why do you do it?

Welcome to the Land of DSM, or The Land That Time Forgot.

MOST of us here wouldn't be driving DSMs. Exept that we can't afford Supras, MR-2s, Porsches, Maseratis, Lamborghinis, DeTomasos, the "new" GT40, Bizarrinis, Aston-Martins, Jaguars, Bugattis, Saleens, Vectors, or even (puke at the thought) a 3G Eclipse.

A large portion of the owners here are under 20, and are finding out about things with their first cars. They have DSMs because the perfomance/price ratio makes a damned Honda look like a gold chariot.

Eighty bucks isn't much.... unless your part-time "double-size that?" job takes up two weeks of your time to bring home that much.

I'd not re-use those valves, and for the price of a new set I'd find a complete head in better shape than what those look like. But out intrepid young Barny Oldfield here probably doesn't have those sorts of resources. He's trying to clean off a decade's worth of deposits with a goddamned hand drill, for chrissake.

 

[sonicnofadz]

Well actually I'm a college student (22 years of age), but I am still on a budget (work only on the weekends). I am trying to re-use the valves because I am doing a full engine rebuild this summer (and I plan to replace everything then, since I'll be working full-time). If I have have the valves polished by the machinist, I think they will probably function properly, at least until the summer comes. Or should I get the valves replaced now, or can they wait until the summer? The only reason I have the car apart right now is that my head gasket starting pushing coolant, and the car needs to pass inspection. While I was in the engine I just thought I might clean things up a bit just for the hell of it.

I have some experience building engines, (used to help my father work on his hot rods) but I am not all that familar with how to work with the valves in particular.
If I did buy a new set of valves, would I also be required to buy a new set of guides? How would the old guides (which have been worn away with about 13 years of abuse) fair when matched up with a brand new set of valves. It seems like I need to replace the valves AND the guides. Or should my machinist be able to somehow make them fit? Also, with a brand new set of valves would I be required to have any machining done to the seats?

 

[set3422]

You could do this if you have a drill press. I fed the valve to the drill chuck and spun at 2000 rpm. Used some fine grit 3m to smooth out the surface little by little. The valves are nitride coated (i think). I removed them anyway. Make sure you don't remove too much on the bottom portion where it contacts with the valve seat. The stainless steel surface provides much better flow than the rough coating. Without the coating, the valves run at a higher temp. Good luck.

Originally posted by sonicnofadz
I'm in the middle of a complete head rebuild, and I've ran into a bit of a problem. I've tried soaking the exhaust valves in several different types of carbeurator cleaners and the carbon deposits on the bottoms of the valves STILL WON'T COME OFF. My wire wheel can't take the stuff off, it seems as if its completely solidified, almost like it were made of metal itself. Below are a few pics of two of my exhaust valves. I would REALLY like to reuse them because they are in perfect condition, however I'm not sure what will happen if I stick them back in and DON'T clean there bottom side (will it cause detonation ???). Their top sides are all nice and clean, and seal nicely with the valve seats, so that shouldn't be an issue. What should I do? Have a machine shop polish them? Use some other type of chemical to soak them in?

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[Suparata]

Originally posted by sonicnofadz
Well actually I'm a college student (22 years of age), but I am still on a budget (work only on the weekends). I am trying to re-use the valves because I am doing a full engine rebuild this summer (and I plan to replace everything then, since I'll be working full-time). If I have have the valves polished by the machinist, I think they will probably function properly, at least until the summer comes. Or should I get the valves replaced now, or can they wait until the summer? The only reason I have the car apart right now is that my head gasket starting pushing coolant, and the car needs to pass inspection. While I was in the engine I just thought I might clean things up a bit just for the hell of it.

I have some experience building engines, (used to help my father work on his hot rods) but I am not all that familar with how to work with the valves in particular.
If I did buy a new set of valves, would I also be required to buy a new set of guides? How would the old guides (which have been worn away with about 13 years of abuse) fair when matched up with a brand new set of valves. It seems like I need to replace the valves AND the guides. Or should my machinist be able to somehow make them fit? Also, with a brand new set of valves would I be required to have any machining done to the seats?

Mitsu valves hold up well and they might not need to be replaced if they measure good, are straight and they have enough margin left after they have been refaced so you cannot make the judgment to replace the valves or not without having your machinist check them out. When a valve gets reconditioned it is cut,refaced,machined or whatever you want to call it besides polishing it. As you could see in the picture, in time valves get pitted and loose their concentricity so they have to be worked on both the tip of the stem and on the face of the valve and have a fresh, smooth and concentric surface that will contact the valve seat .

Valve seats also get pounded and pitted so they need to be machined but that is not possible if the guides are worn out(bellmouth),out of round because you cannot take a reference "point" that is not straight and on size anymore. So if you don't have the guides worked on not only you start with a bad valve job but you will also end up with the valves not being able to get rid of the rest of the heat that wasn't "discarded" through the seat and oil consumption down the guides will be excessive. So guide work is necessary no matter what valves you will use but both guide work and seat work has to be done after you decided what valves are you going to use.

Bottom line things wear out and need to be reconditioned to have them perform like they should and nobody can do that except your machinist so that's why I was saying that these things cannot be done by the regular mechanic, no matter how much he knows about it. The equipment that is needed is tens of thousands of dollars for each machine and there are a lot of them needed to have the job done right.

Check this link out for more info because I'm already tired after all this typing.
http://www.engintecs.com/html/cylinder_head.html

Do the right think and you will do it once(and end up saving time and money).
Mitch.

 

[Frontwheeler]

sonicnofadz,

I had my head apart last month and my valves looked identical, if not worse. My talon has 175,000 miles on all bone stock internals also. I let my valves soak in Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner for a couple of days. Then I used 3M's scotch pad disks on a die grinder. Much more forgiving then a wire wheel, and very good for cleaning gasket surfaces. It took most of it off, and my car runs great.

Same situation as you, needed new seals and gaskets in head and going to college. I'm not sure why so many people on this site insist on bashing someone for not spending as much money as they did.

Best of luck on your project man.

 

[Suparata]

Originally posted by Frontwheeler
sonicnofadz,

I had my head apart last month and my valves looked identical, if not worse. My talon has 175,000 miles on all bone stock internals also. I let my valves soak in Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner for a couple of days. Then I used 3M's scotch pad disks on a die grinder. Much more forgiving then a wire wheel, and very good for cleaning gasket surfaces. It took most of it off, and my car runs great.

Same situation as you, needed new seals and gaskets in head and going to college. I'm not sure why so many people on this site insist on bashing someone for not spending as much money as they did.

Best of luck on your project man.

You think you are helping him with your input and guess what: you are . You teach him HOW NOT TO DO THINGS. The difference between you and him is that he knows he made an honest mistake and he is willing to learn how to do it right and you are not. So you did a shitty job on your head to "save" money but does that make it right? HELL NO !!! The problem is that even after you did it you don't realize that what you did was wrong and you're trying to share your "experience" with others. Nobody is "bashing" him for not spending money and even though I jumped on him at the beginning of this thread , he did not feel insulted and he showed the willingness to learn which he did. Did you?. It is not about how much money gets spent , it is about how to do it right. Besides giving you great satisfaction DSM's also give you the opportunity to learn a lot especially how to approach things in life : put your hearth in what you are doing and you will be rewarded. Even if other things go bad on you , you can still wake up every morning and look in the mirror without being ashamed of what you see in there. You are going to approach things in life just the way you are approaching the work on your DSM. They were designed with this concept in mind. The designers knew that in ten years there will be an army of young warriors that will need to find their way in life and need to learn that it is not the "Easy Street" who will take them at the destination.

This was deep wasn't it?

Mitch.

 

[Frontwheeler]

OK,

I may have been a little misinterpretted in my last post. I am not against having a profesional machinest do it. I was just simply stating that my deposists came off after soaking in Mopar Combustions Chamber Cleaner.

I am a little confused why your taking personal shots at me, my car, and "the way I approach life." It's just a car performance forum man. It's to discuss, learn, and argue about cars.

 

[joeym4130]

I give this thread a 5 out of 5 for entertainment value. I especially enjoyed the scene where rebuilding your head constitutes the type of person you are

But I would get the valves done by someone, not horribly expensive...

Probably good to try to DIY however, because next time you will know what to do and what to outsource to shops besides..skimping on things and having them not work is a part of being a DSMer haha....

 

[sonicnofadz]

I really didn't mean to spark up so much debate, all I really wanted to find out is how to clean carbon deposits off of old exhaust valves =) I have no idea how the topic morphed into some type of philosophical discussion. My head is currently at the machine shop getting it's valves cut, seats done, etc. I figured its one less thing I'll have to worry about during the next rebuild this summer (unless I snap the belt, knock on wood). I realize there are many ways to approach a head rebuild. In the time I've spent in these forums, I have noticed that there are three different categories of DSM owners. There are those who try to do most of the work, and leave only the most difficult of jobs to the machinist. Others leave everything to the machinist. And then there are the few crazies () that try to do everything themselves. I happen to fall pretty close to the crazy side =) but I sometimes realize when to consult someone elses expertise. I truly appreciate everyone's input, and I have not taken offense to anything said. I just ask that people try to keep an open mind about other people's opinions, and avoid taking things too personally. I'd really hate to see this thread turn into an all out flamewar.

 

[Defiant]

Well, Mitch is still kinda new with us, you need to give him time to get his linings bedded-in with us.

Click on his website link, you'll soon see why he's such a fuss-budget.

Too bad he's so damned far away....

 

[Suparata]

Guys we need to laugh too from time to time. We also have to try to learn more every day.
While I recommend everybody to try to do what they can do themselves on their cars , there are certain things that they just cannot do by themselves and I would like them to know why . So please take a look at these pictures so you can understand why is it that just cleaning is not enough. Click on the pictures to enlarge them.

http://www.engintecs.com/gallery/album16/Exh_valves1
http://www.engintecs.com/gallery/album16/Exh_valves2
http://www.engintecs.com/gallery/album16/Merc_int_valves1
http://www.engintecs.com/gallery/album16/Merc_int_valves2
http://www.engintecs.com/gallery/album16/Seat_off

Notice how valves that are cleaned and apparently don't look so bad are in fact not only pitted but they also pounded themselves crooked loosing their concentricity. If those valves were to be reinstalled without reconditioning them the engine would have run but how well and for how long? Furthermore if the seat is out too how can you expect to have good sealing and good heat transfer?

I guess you can take a teacher out of the classroom but you cannot take the teacher out of a teacher. I must be getting old and "advicy".
I'm going to go now since I cannot concentrate too well because my wife just gave me great news last night and I'm still "under the influence".
Mitch.

P.S. Defiant . Nobody is too far away these days. Most of my stuff I've got from RRE and that wasn't because they were close.

 

[sonicnofadz]

Hey suparata, lets say someone took the valves from above, and tried to take a feeler gauge between the valves and the valve seat (while properly installed). If there was no gap (or at least an extremely tight clearance) according to the feeler gauge, would you say it would be safe to run the valves without modification? I'm not a machinist so I don't really know if a feeler gauge would be the right way to measure this sort of thing. If not, how do machine shops determine if the valves are indeed sealing properly against the seats? What kind of instruments do they use to measure this? While my cylinder head was at the shop I didn't get a chance to watch the machinist do much of anything, I was too busy getting my car ready for the re-installation of the head.