inline turbos

[Salad 419]

Here's the deal.....I want to know if you've ever seen this attempted and did it work or not.

I have a 90 Laser with the stock 14B. I also have a turbo off an older car that will bolt directly to the O2 housing of the 14B. I plan on running them with the exhaust inline as described, but I'm curious as to the problems I'm going to experience with the lack of pressure drop from the 1st to the second turbo or any other problems you'll forsee. I'm going to run seperate boost controllers to find the optimum efficiencies for each turbo.

Any theories or real results will be great.

Thanks,
Salad 419

 

[BAD-TSi]

Thats not really a good idea.

 

[kpt4321]

I'd like to know WHY you thought this would work?

No way.

 

[Tevenor]

What are you trying to accomplish with the 2nd turbo? Why try to spin up 2 turbo's with 2.0l of engine displacement? Where is the benefit over optimizing a single turbo setup?

 

[Salad 419]

Here's what I was trying to accomplish.......

1) CHEAP. I have these parts lying around the shop and it won't cost anything to do this but some time. I'd really prefer to buy a new big turbo but don't have the cash.

2) The Cool factor. Open the hood, see two turbos. That's cool AND different. (It's the big block factor in old hot rods. Everybody goes oooooooo. Even if they're not as fast as my small block.)

3) The Theory....

small turbos such as the 14B only flow 405cfm @ 15 pounds of boost which is good for about 250 whp or so. agree??

people put bigger turbos such as a 50 trim (Green, RS49, pick your fav) that flow around 710cfm @ 15 pounds of boost and are good for about 450 whp or so. agree???

IF I can get the 14B to flow the 405 and if the Garret can flow equally which shouldn't be a problem because it's bigger, that's 810 cfm @ 15 pounds of boost. agree????


SO, IF we can get these puppies to work and both spool up with no problems we'll have big hp potential because of the flow with stock lag. agree??


I've seen "compound" turbos before which utilize a smaller turbo to get the boost up quickly and then switch over to a larger turbo to put big power numbers down. However, I'm not sure how they do it. I'd imagine the second turbo would run off of the wastegate of the 1st which WHEN this setup doesn't work, I'll fab up something like that with a homemade O2 housing for this setup.



That's what the heck I was thinking. It's logical, but now we have to see why it WON'T work.

The only problems I can see are that the pressure drop from the 14B will not be that great, so it may not want to turn the turbine of the 14B. And I'm not sure if the wastegate for the second turbo is big enough to handle all the extra exhaust gasses so I'll probably have to find and external wastegate sometime.

More feedback please....

 

[talonted_one]

Let me get what you are saying correct...


You want to have one turbo feed into the inlet of the second turbo, or do you want to set a sequential type set up where there is a smaller turbo than shuts down when a bigger turbo kicks in?

Either way you don't want it. Why you ask? In the first set up I described( I can't remember the proper name for it) the arrangement in a 1G engine bay would be pretty much impossible. There is no physical room to do it. Also I don't believe a 2.0l will breathe deeply enough to fully utilized the turbo set up. One last note in this set up if both turbos were putting out 15psi, the end product wouldn't be 30spi, but actually some where closer to 45 or so if I'm not mistaken.

In a sequential turbo set up there is a huge rat nest of vaccum lines and solenoids that you would have to deal with which can be kinda complicated. You would have to pay particular attention to your fuel management,and most of all there are single turbos that will do just a good of a job if not being a thousand times better. There is a reason the sequential and twin turbo guys to to a single configuration.


In closing the amount of modifications you would have to do will probably end up to be as much as a larger more efficent turbo. I say buy a Green and be done with it.

 

[Tevenor]

Originally posted by Salad 419
Here's what I was trying to accomplish.......

1) CHEAP. I have these parts lying around the shop and it won't cost anything to do this but some time. I'd really prefer to buy a new big turbo but don't have the cash.

Build cheap. Get cheap. Nuff said.

Originally posted by Salad 419

2) The Cool factor. Open the hood, see two turbos. That's cool AND different. (It's the big block factor in old hot rods. Everybody goes oooooooo. Even if they're not as fast as my small block.)

Right there you lost me. Are you building it for a go car or a show car? So you want the OOOOO over the OOOOO from going fast?

Originally posted by Salad 419

3) The Theory....

small turbos such as the 14B only flow 405cfm @ 15 pounds of boost which is good for about 250 whp or so. agree??

No. I don't agree. Why stick with 15 when no one else does? The 14b is capable of more than you think. But that's not the point is it. Let's continue....

Originally posted by Salad 419
people put bigger turbos such as a 50 trim (Green, RS49, pick your fav) that flow around 710cfm @ 15 pounds of boost and are good for about 450 whp or so. agree???

This is a broad statement since I can pick my turbo for my application and boost desires. Suffice to say that there is a turbo for every need made by someone.

Originally posted by Salad 419
IF I can get the 14B to flow the 405 and if the Garret can flow equally which shouldn't be a problem because it's bigger, that's 810 cfm @ 15 pounds of boost. agree????

No. Not at all. Where did you get 810 from? What do you mean 'flow equally'? There are tons of dynamics that you aren't considering.

Originally posted by Salad 419
SO, IF we can get these puppies to work and both spool up with no problems we'll have big hp potential because of the flow with stock lag. agree??

No I don't. Stock lag? who the fu wants stock lag. My turbo spins up to 21 psi by 3200 or so. that's FASTER than a stock 1G 14b setup. And it will out flow it. And I am making 350 to the wheels on pumpgas. Hell the guys that accept high boost threshold and lag points are are also making 450+. Will yours perform the same? Or don't you know yet? Which leads me to the next item....

This is entire statement is a HUGE ASSUMPTION. Its an assumption that you get mate whatever piece of 20 year old turbo technology you have sitting there to the 14b ratings and get lots of Horsepower. Go ask the Supra guys how they like their twin turbo setup. And remember they have another liter of displacement to help spool them up.

Originally posted by Salad 419

I've seen "compound" turbos before which utilize a smaller turbo to get the boost up quickly and then switch over to a larger turbo to put big power numbers down. However, I'm not sure how they do it. I'd imagine the second turbo would run off of the wastegate of the 1st which WHEN this setup doesn't work, I'll fab up something like that with a homemade O2 housing for this setup.

That's what the heck I was thinking. It's logical, but now we have to see why it WON'T work.

The only problems I can see are that the pressure drop from the 14B will not be that great, so it may not want to turn the turbine of the 14B. And I'm not sure if the wastegate for the second turbo is big enough to handle all the extra exhaust gasses so I'll probably have to find and external wastegate sometime.

More feedback please....

You do know the twin turbo, in both forms has been tried and ultimate in those cases it turned out to be more of a hassle than it was worth.

If you are going for the bling bling OOOOOOO factor, go ahead. Make sure any custom pieces you make are chromed up and polished. Otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time, which I consider just as much as a commodity as money, on it for a performance solution.

 

[Defiant]

It doesn't work. That's why it isn't done.

You're not the first guy to have spare turbos laying around.

 

[GRNDSM]

The reason why turbos are so efficient is because they take hot pressurized exhaust gases (1600deg F) and expend them through the turbine. That lower the pressure and temperature (down to around 1200deg F). That gas is pretty much spent at this point. Taking it and sending it through another turbo will not be no where near as efficient as sending it through just one turbo.

However, such turbo set-ups are sometimes used to build up very high boost (over 40psi).

Not to mention all of the logistical issues with plumbing two turbos…

Lastly, improper forum, thread moved.

Leon
RR

 

[13secGST]

I read this in the extreme tuner forum...still wondering...what kind of turbo is this other turbo? And, how do you think you are going to be flowing 810cfm at 15psi with stock like spool??? sure the 14b may spool quick...but you'll be lucky if the other one can ever spin out 5psi.

 

[psychlow]

Originally posted by Salad 419
lack of pressure drop from the 1st to the second turbo

This would be the single biggest concern I would have as far as the entire project. Your first turbo is going to be working very hard to push out any boost.

A second concern is going to be oiling and cooling for your second turbo. Routing those lines is going to be a pain in the ass, and that's going to be compounded if the second turbo is also water cooled.

A third concern is going to be heat. On a single turbo setup, the exhaust heat is extreme, but it is dissipated after the turbo rather quickly. I'm pretty confident that putting a restriciton in the exhaust as major as another turbo might cause the first turbo to exceed it's designed operating temperature, leading to premature failure. Also - I'm trying to picture this in my head - I'm thinking that the second turbo is going to be even closer to the radiator than the first (could be wrong), so your chances of melting a fan may increase.

I say go for it! If nothing else, you'll be able to say you tried. I'd be interested in the results. Don't say you weren't warned that you're in for a helluva project, though.

EDIT: Another problem - mounting a wastegate actuator for your second turbo. You may have to mount an external wastegate on your O2 housing.

 

[RipperXX]

I am realy curius about this and want to know the results.

And to the above. Why couldn't he just use a Y connection to the stock water and oil lines?

 

[DSMJim]

First there is no oooo factor, thats just stupid. Second a 14B has gone 12's and your nowhere near that so when you get to 12's with your 14B then feel free to try something new.

450hp at 15psi? Lol.. Show me one car with a green or 50trim at 15psi making 450hp and I'll send the Sweedish fellatio team to your door.

 

[pr0_re]

i say go for it try new stuf see if you can make it work you can free up some space ill help you drop the power stering and move the alternator to the other side. hell its your money not mine and if some how you get it to work ill fly down to see it and shake your hand

 

[Salad 419]

Several points that I may not have included enough info on..... the flow rates for the turbos is just for reference, not that I'm ONLY going to run 15 pounds of boost, or that people with Green's, etc ONLY run 15 pounds to get that much HP. I'm aware of that fact, but most of the specs for turbos are listed in flow at 15 pounds.

The mounting of the 2nd turbo is going to be simple. It bolts directly to the O2 housing. The plumbing for the oil and water lines may take an afternoon to smooth out.

DSMJim, how do you know I'm not already running 12's? I don't think I have a timeslip listed, anywhere. Just checking. 12's are easy.

Does anyone think that it will be better than JUST the baby 14B. That's all I guess I was wondering.

I'm gonna try it just until I get the cash for a turbo. It's only time, not money and then I can give my feedback as the idiot that tried it, and WHY it didn't work from experience. When it doesn't work, I'll just pull the 2nd one off. No big deal. It's a LONG winter, and my fast car is all ready for race season next year.

I will keep you posted.

 

[Tevenor]

Originally posted by Salad 419
Does anyone think that it will be better than JUST the baby 14B. That's all I guess I was wondering.

Better maybe. Better than just buying the right size single in the first place? No.

 

[bigfoot]

Lol.. Show me one car with a green or 50trim at 15psi making 450hp and I'll send the Sweedish fellatio team to your door.

You can do that? You rule. OK, let me hook up a wet shot and then I'll tell you where to send them. Thanks dude.

 

[fwdtsi]

I say, try it. You cant go off what other people say until you found out yourself. I wanted to try this awhile back but didnt want to go through the hassle and plus it would suck to do all of this work and it not work like you thought it would have. But if you want to try it go for it, there's another post about this in engine performance forums called "going twin turbo"

 

[fwdtsi]

Also, I thought dsmer's were supposed to find the cheapest way out instead of just buying parts. I guess you could take the easy way out and just buy a turbo, But the hassle might save you some money. Actually I heard of a gst doing this and it sounded like he was not dissapointed with it

 

[NosLaser]

...450hp at 15psi? Lol.. Show me one car with a green or 50trim at 15psi making 450hp and I'll send the Sweedish fellatio team to your door....

Well, since you said 'one car' and '50 trim' then I guess that will apply if I put a 50 trim on my Mustang and run 15 pounds?

Regards,

 

[Staged]

Oh wow... Swedish Fellatio Team? hehe
Here's the deal, there are plusses and minus' to this "project."
First of all, to manifold the turbos, you will need to make a custom manifold that will support both. Stop trying to figure out how to connect the turbos together. To accomplish this, you need to run one turbo off of 1 and 4, and the other off of 2 and 3.
Space, run one under, as in stock, and one above. Remove your A/C core (Which you should have done already if you are truly hardcore and in Nevada), and for $150 build a custom radiator into the fitting. Then you can use your custom manifold to "fold" into the area where your fans and radiator used to be. You can also just visit a fiberglass fab shop (boat shop), and they can fix you up with a custom hood.
Using the twin setup is exactly as if you were using the V-6, sequential. BUT! You need to go ahead and bore to a 2.2 monster and coat and ARP everything. Run your 14B at 14lb.s and your 50trim at 21. Check with builders like turbonetics to get the design for your plumbing started, and begin an independent cooling system for the 2nd turbo. Pricy, but well worth it.
Okay, I am going to stop here. Once you have paid the $25000 or so up to this point on design, manufacturing, and parts, you should be on the right track.
In other words, your "bling" will cost you. Oh yeah, and it will cost you again after your 8-second run to go through everything again.
My opinion, get a friend at a metal shop, and do some math. Start with how much you can get for that extra turbo. And start scraping that loose change together!
All-right, all crap aside, I am not completely sure what you're thinking. But it IS a good idea...

 

[MNGSX]

You will need a huge turbine housing. Like a big T4 housing.

Every sequential twin I have seen that worked as advertised had a really huge turbine housing on turbo #2. The small turbo gets exhaust first.


Cold side...

The large turbo intake goes to the airfilter.

The large turbos outler goes into the small turbo..

The small turbos outlet goes to the IC system then the tb.


What happens is the small one spools first. It actually draws air thru the big one.... helping it spool a bit. As exhaust gas flow increases eventually there is enough to get the big one going. Once it is spooled it really mostly pushes air thru the smaller one.

If you are'nt looking for like 25psi plus while minimizing lag don't bother.

If you want 25psi plus and dont care about lag... dont bother.

 

[fwdtsi]

dsmtrader.com had a custom twin turbo manifold and two t-25's for sale for 550. But I think somebody already nabbed it.

 

[MNGSX]

Now that is even more stupid.

Two crappy turbos that spool half as fast...

I have met and discussed things with people who have designed sequential twin systems... for diesels really but the basic concepts apply.

Use a turbo with 7cm2 turbine housing (hint does'nt come on a 14b) then use the biggest t3 garret flanged turbine housing or a T4 style you can get. Honestly on the diesels I think the second turbine housing is like 24cm2 or something.

You will also need a manifold mounted wastegate.

So recap..

1. Parallel twins and a 4cyl don't mix
2. Sequential twins can theoretically be pretty cool.
3. Problem... Nobody listens as how to do it right so it ends up running like ass.

 

[DSMJim]

OK Aslan, the mustang at 15psi would probablly make 450hp (I was talking about DSM's) But the team shoudl be at your door any minute now... Congrats to you ..


Ok here is the real answer. I shot this pic at sema.