Anti-lag Exhaust Manifold

[Blizz92tsi]

Hi guys,
I recently read the article in Turbo Magazine about Brainstorm's Evo VIII. In this article it mentioned that they upgraded the exhaust manifold (among many other things) to an AVO unit that has the anti-lag features that the Evos that are sold in Australia and Japan come with. I wrote Brainstorm to find out what exactly these anti-lag features are exactly and to find out if that manifold would bolt up to our DSMs. I don't think they would since the turbo faces the opposite direction, but I didn't think it hurt to ask. I also asked them what the possiblity of AVO making a manifold for us DSMers would be, and this is the purpose of this thread. I was wondering how many people would be interested in purchasing an exhaust manifold if it flowed as well as a ported 2g and had this anti-lag feature? A ported 2g exhaust manifold from Buschur costs $275. Would you purchase this exhaust manifold over a ported 2G? Please let me know what you think of this idea. Also if anyone knows specificly what this anti-lag feature is and does that would be helpful too. Sorry for the long post and thank you for your time!

 

[DSMJim]

Anti-lag systems have nothing to do with the manifold other than gas is being ignited inside the manifold to spool the turbo. An ALS used on a rally car is retarded timing and lots of fuel which ends up buring up inside the manifold. It really doesn't have anything to do with the design of the manifold itself.

Maybe he means less lag or something.

 

[Blizz92tsi]

I'm not sure what was meant by the "anti-lag feature" that's why I e-mailed them to get more in depth info. I'll let you guys know when I get a reply. Being that its Saturday (when I sent the e-mail) it might be Monday before I get a reponse.

 

[Defiant]

Hm, I'd wondered if it'd work to burn fuel in the exhaust to spool up the turbine. I'd also pondered making some kind of induction motor out of the turbo in order to give it a spool-up boost, apparently Garret beat me to that one as well.

Just what I get for thinking without having my tinfoil hat on.

 

[DSMJim]

Originally posted by Defiant
Hm, I'd wondered if it'd work to burn fuel in the exhaust to spool up the turbine.

Yeah it works, and really works well, however you want to talk about making a harsh environment a lot worse, an ALS will melt a regular manifold and would not be even remotely feasable for a car that is street driven.

 

[irn__man]

If you are interested in "AntiLag", DSMlink Version 2 has a dragstrip antilag feature. From all the info I have gathered so far the DSMlink Antilag feature will spool a 50 trim turbo at the line enough to open the wastegate.

For more info go the their website, http://dsmlink.com/

fwm

 

[1LE]

Anti-lag systems such as those typically used on rallly cars ignite fuel in the manifold to keep the turbo spooled. VERY, VERY bad for the turbo... The teams that do this replace turbos frequently

 

[Blizz92tsi]

Hey guys,
Thank you for all of your responses. The race anti-lag system you were talking about sounds cool, but not practical for a street car. However, I'm not sure if that is exactly what they were talking about or not. I still await Brainstorm's reply. Is there anyway it could be a change in the manifold design that decreases spool time? Later.

 

[Defiant]

Well, then lessee.... gitcha an accumulator off a diesel air starter, and a nozzle, and hook it up to blast the turbine and....

 

[hostile]

He is still just talking about a manifold that will reduce lag. If it was a pulse drive manifold it would have faster spool up times. But they are expensive and wouldnt fit on a street car very easily.

Why dont you just spend the extra money on a ball bearing turbo, it will help spool faster if that is what your looking for.

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

Exactly what everyone said.

Unless you got money to burn on turbos and manifolds I don't suggest trying to rig up an ALS on and street car.

 

[Blizz92tsi]

Here you go guys a quote from Brainstorm's web site:
"Complete turbo upgrade kit rated at 450hp. Includes a state-of-the-art Garrett GT40 dual ball bearing turbocharger with internal wastegate, ni-resist, high-flow cast manifold, and 3' downpipe

This manifold flows so much better than the restrictive stock one and has provisions for the anti-lag systems on Japanese and Australian cars.

Fits with the stock heatshield.

Awesome power with a very fast spool up."
This turbo upgrade is for the EVO VIII which was on the featured EVO in Turbo magazine. I'm still waiting to hear back from Brainstorm if that manifold will fit a DSM, and if it doesn't (highly likely) if AVO would be willing to make one that would. I started the thread to guage interest for an alternative to the 2g or 2g ported exhaust mani. If we could get this mani and it flowed as well or better and reduced lag I was wondering how many would be interested in purchasing the AVO unit. I hope to hear back from them soon. If I don't hear anything today I'll try calling and or emailing them tommorrow. Later.

 

[Cirus_93TSI]

im sure there are plenty of people in japan running ALS on street driven evos, but thats not to say its easy to make it work without ruining your turbo and manifold frequently
ALS is notorious for creating lots and lots of heat that will quickly ruin your turbo, but if you could figure a way to be able to turn it on and off it would be a great mod
even if you cant, there should be a way to run it safely, although the way might be to buy a expensive turbo that can handle the heat

this guy on a teckademics video had a porsche with a top speed of 206 mph, they showed it on the dyno with a camra pointing at the manifolds and turbos in a dimly lit room. when he got into it hard on the dyno
the manifolds and turbos heated up to the point that they glowed orange, you actually see them heat up as the rpm's rise, then cool and stop glowing afterwards
if that cars turbo can handle that head then there is some way to deal with it on our cars, but thats all in theory, it may be impossible to get these things built for anywhere close to a reasonable price

 

[Cirus_93TSI]

oh, i completly forgot, i guess i was still a little hung over earlier
after that he drove the car over 4000 miles in about a week, taking the really long and scenic way from NY to LA
and they werent cruising, they some people were doing over 200 on public roads at some point in the video, and that porsche was keeping up with the groups pace for the most part

 

[Blizz92tsi]

hey guys,
I just got an e-mail from Brainstorm Performance. They said that their manifolds will bolt up to our DSMs and that the anti-lag system is a way of routing compressed air into the exhaust manifold under certain conditions to reduce lag once throttle is applied again. They said that this anti-lag system could be retro-fitted to our DSMs as well. Here comes the catch. The manifold by itself without the turbo costs $840!!! So much for this being a reasonable alternative to the 2g/2g ported exhaust manifold. Well back to the old drawing boards. Thought I'd let you guys know what I found out. Later.

 

[RipperXX]

Why not just get a diveing tank since I think they can hold a crap load of pressure pump it up to it's limit. get a nozel, hose etc. and there you go run that into your exhaust manifold and when you know your about to take off press a little butten.. psshhhhht and go. there turbo is spooled and your all happy....


seems something ghetto could be riged up pretty cheap to me.. I dont see how it could be much harder than taping a manifold for a EGT sensor.

 

[Blizz92tsi]

This is very true. I don't think a setup like that would be very hard to make. A more extensive knowledge of how the Japanese version works would make things a lot easier. Anyone know where we can get a diagram of how one of those works? What parts are hooked up to what, how it knows when to send the compressed air, and etc. Thanks.

 

[dave92tsi]

has anyone thought of the side effects of this yet. Let's see you want to shoot compressed air or co2 into the turbo. Think about that thermally a really hot turbo and manifold then inject co2 or compressed air I think that could make the turbo brittle and prone to cracking. Another problem i see could be pressurizing the exhaust manifold to feed back into the combustion chamber and slowing the exhaust stroke, rpm will drop drasticly which is going to defeat you purpouse. just a thought thou

 

[MNGSX]

The ignition cut antilag is just a side effect of one method of stutterbox type of revlimiting.

It is refered to as "Drag Antilag"

It does'nt work like rally antilag. It wont engage at speed, when the throttle is not open or when the clutch switch isn't engaged.

Rally ALS works different.


http://f2.autospeed.com/A_0161/cms/article.html

Read the whole thing.

Then

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/Mitsubishi_Evo_V/EvoV_3.html


All you really need to do to a stock manifold is D&T for some fittings and make a common air rail out of tubing to distribute air to each runner.

Get it pretty close to the head. The air coming out the exhaust will be pretty low on oxygen obviously as compared to intake charge air.

So it is hot and low on the stuff that helps fuel burn. In a nutshell.

So we find a way to squirt some more air in there to help the burn. That actually lowers temps and detonation in the exhaust manifold compared to ALS without the exhaust manifold air taps.

Then the ignition is retarded and more fuel is added. The spark comes after TDC of the compression stroke which results in more burn out the exhaust. The injectors are then used by the ALS to add extra fuel.

How hard or soft the ALS is depends on how far you retard the ignition and how much fuel you add.

Im thinking the ultimate best system is to apply seperate fuel, air and spark to the exhaust manifold. If one had dynamic control of all three a really potent ALS would not be as abusive or hard to tame. That is a tall order however.

 

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Cirus_93TSI
this guy on a teckademics video had a porsche with a top speed of 206 mph, they showed it on the dyno with a camra pointing at the manifolds and turbos in a dimly lit room. when he got into it hard on the dyno
the manifolds and turbos heated up to the point that they glowed orange, you actually see them heat up as the rpm's rise, then cool and stop glowing afterwards

So does your DSM, as well as any other turbocharger. Take a peek some night after a hard pull.

Can I get a CARB number on this other stuff?

 

[Blizz92tsi]

I'd first like to respond to dave92tsi. Stock EVOs in Japan and Austrailia come with this anti-lag system of using compressed air fed into the exhaust manifold. They however aren't supplied by any kind of "diving tank" or anything like that as far as I know. The compressed air is used from some other part of the car's system. You are completely correct the use of an outside source of compressed air or CO2 would certainly be catstrophic (sp?) to the exhaust manifold and turbo because of the extreme temp. differences. We need more info on how the stock system works before anymore ideas can be thrown around. Second, MNGSX ....... thanks I think. More air, fuel, and spark directly to the manifold. That would create some serious heat and damage to your manifold and turbo. Defiant, CARB # on what stuff?

 

[set3422]

it would be far cheaper if you inject n20.

 

[Turbo Monk3y]

r u guys talking about The misfiring systems they use in the Rally races???? That is basically watever this Anti lag feature is , i belive it Cuts the Ignition at low rpms on and off in a staged manner and allows gas and air to enter into the exhaust manifold then it ignites making the turbo spool up faster. This results in Multiple loud backfires from your muffler. and significanly cuts the life of your turbo... but if your sponsored from a Rally team who cares about the costs of turbos right ?? ?

 

[MNGSX]

Second, MNGSX ....... thanks I think. More air, fuel, and spark directly to the manifold. That would create some serious heat and damage to your manifold and turbo.

The big improvent the ALS mitsu uses on rally cars is the air injection to the exhaust manifold over previous ALS designs. The system does'nt produce as violent explosions or heat in the manifold because when the timing is retarded and fuel is added it does'nt need to use so much fuel in the exhuast manifold. It's closer to stocih.

Air injection by itself has been used just for emissions. Shoot some cool clean air in their at the exhaust port and emmisions go down. They use a "smog pump" (air injectiion pump).

A 2nd spark plug on the exhaust port or in the exhaust mani runner has been done for emissions too.

The best way to do fuel to the mani is jets like N20 kits. They can tolerate the heat unlike injectors.

Yes done wrong you could, break, burn or even blow sh&t up. Done right it would be alot better system than what is common. Since you have control of 3 of the factors as opposed to just two.

Maybe the seperate spark source is un needed. Having control of air and fuel may be enough. The key is to get it to burn exh runner out like a torch. Als goes on and a bit of air and fuel gets added to the manifold and lights a steady flame growing untill boost is reached then the system fades out.

The way they are now fuel is dumped into the cylinder and the retarded ignition lights it late so its still burning and pushing vapor out the head and it reignites violently in the manifold. On the air injection type it has more air so it burns smoother and earlier in the manifold. You wont really see stuff like flames out the muffler tip since the mix in the manifold can be burned in the manifold with the added air.

I'm just saying a "soft touch" ALS is'nt that far from reality. Someone will come up with it if they have'nt already. If someone has watched a rally race compare a mitsu in ALS mode to some other cars in ALS. Then again maybe they all run this system now. Before you could see a big difference. The other cars would flame out the tailpipe some and were alot lounder

Now if garret figures out how to get their VGT (its on fords new 6.0 T-diesel) to handle a gas engine or someone does get a holset VGT (5.9 Cummins) to work ALS will be less needed. It is a EGT and lubricity issue Gas vs Diesel. Holsets design is simpler, less moving parts, and looks less likely to jam up or wear out in a gas engine. The exhaust in a diesel does tend to lube up the parts in a turbo a bit.

 

[Blizz92tsi]

I'm not interested in the rally anti-lag system. The compressed air into the exhaust manifold is what I was after. However more infomation on how the stock jspec system works is needed before any more ideas on how we could transfer this to our DSMs should be thrown around. Anyone with info, diagrams, schematics, etc. on how the jspec system works is greatly needed and would be greatly appreciated. Doesn't anyone out there know what I'm talking about and how it works in detail? The rally anti-lag system is an interesting idea and a milder street version would be really cool, but its off topic. If the thread is continued to be hijacked by the rally topic I'll ask for the thread to be closed. Later.