4G63 or 4G64

[RipperXX]

Ok, I have heard some good things about the Magnus 4G64 and how the extra dispalcement realy helps turbo spool time and is easier to make more power..

I was looking for 95GSX's thread were i think he ran mid or high 11's on a built Magnus 4G64 engine but it wasn't even tuned well. (if anyone can find the thread plz post a link)


Anyway so here is the question... Which engine would you use to build your "monster" engine?

OEM US spec. 4G63
OEM JDM 4G63
or Magnus 4G64




I am looking to build a 500whp daily driver that would some times be building 600whp (track only other wise lower the boost to the 500whp range)

 

[BryanK]

man I think if you're looking for a daily driven 500whp car you're going to have to go with a built (forged internals a must) 4G64. The only reason I say you'll have to go with the bigger displacement engine is because you're going to need some extra exhaust flow to spool a turbo thats big enough to support 500whp without having too much lag to make it less than streetable. An extremely knowledgable guy that I've talked to, who has this setup, is rdrkt. Talk to him, he's forgotten more about this stuff than I know.

 

[RipperXX]

Ok, thx.

But yea i know most of what all will have to be done.. i expect to spend 10-15grand on my car before it's completely done (engine, drivetrain, interior, & exterior).

 

[swordfish]

You need what I am building. Actually I'm almost finished with it now. You will have to wait a while to get the rods, but I think its going to be well worth it. Its a Magnus variation on their own 4G64. Instead of using the stock length rods, we (Marco and I) had longer rods made from Pauter. It took about 4 months to get them. It revs higher than the regular 4G64 and has a better rod ratio.

OK, so you really dont need this engine. But I would suggest getting a 4G64 or at least a 2.3L (4G63 w/ 4G64 crank) to make metting those lofty goals easier.

jeff

 

[RipperXX]

ok, so i will use the Magnus 4G64 as I love higher rev limits.

but my question is now, is everything else in the engine the same as a 4G63? far as the cams etc. other than of corse the higher compression pistons?

 

[RipperXX]

Ok so this is what i have just off the top of my head that i will need (going to list everything hear to make this sucker pump the power i want it too)

Engine
-------
* Magnus 4G64 engine
* HKS metal head gaskit
* HKS 272 intake/exhaust cams
* ARP Head Studs
* AEM Cam sprockets (yea like the looks)
* Pauter connecting rods
* Ross pistions
(will the SBR stage III head work on the 4G64?)
* watter pump
* front case w/oil pump gears
* 90 oil filter houseing


Intake
-------
(should i get a larger TB?)
* Magnus intake manifold
* GM 3.5" MAFT
* Best FMIC i can find with 2.5" intake and output.
* 2.5" lower IC pipe
* 2.5" upper IC pipe

Exhaust
---------
* Tubular SS exhaust manifold w/dump tube & tial external WG.
* SBR GT-14 Turbo
* 3" Thermal Research turbo back w/race pipe
* 3" resonator

Fuel
-----

* 720cc injectors
* S-AFC II
* 255lph pump
* Venom Fuel Rail
* -8an Feed and Return Lines
* Aeromotive Fuel Pressure Regulator
* Propane injection kit

Drivetrain

* Custom driveshaft loops
* ACT 2600 clutch
* SSG aluminum flywheel
* Stainless Clutch line

Breaks

2G rotor and caliper upgrad



and after all that is done once i get money again .. if it's not to low wiht the body lit lower it 1" but i duno if i will do that or not.

 

[RipperXX]

BTW how much good does the 4 coil MSD ignitions systems do for our cars?

 

[swordfish]

You will need a cometic big bore head gasket and you will want a turbo with a larger turbine housing than that. Remember, the 4G64 is roughly 20% larger that the 4G63. Consider that going from a 351 cu inch engine (V8) to a 406 cu inch engine is only a 13.5% difference in displacement. That will kinda put into perspective what a 4G64 is like.

Oh, I would also suggest a bigger fuel pump I am going to be running 2 Bosch -044 pumps.

jeff

 

[RipperXX]

would tge pumps your going to use work? and is it volume or pressure the 255 lacks?

and when you discribe the displacement like that... THAT is quite a defernce.. damn this is makeing want to get started that much sooner (just got to pass my stupid GED test first) which i know im gona fail

 

[swordfish]

The reason I am using the larger pumps is that the 255 is doing about all it can once you get over 500whp. Smithey made over 600whp on a supra pump with spray, but I bet that pump was hating life. I just dont want to have a pump run out of steam and go really lean and ruin this thing. One of these pumps alone will support over 750hp. I guess I'm just captain overkill

jeff

 

[RipperXX]

so realy the 255 is enough?... becouse i am trying to stay under 15grand on this project..

i mean i want this thing to be show car quaility but at the same time make some serious power..


BTW i tried calling magnus but i guess there closed as late as it is.. but i was wanting to ask them if the SBR stage III 4G63 head will work on the magnus 4G64 block...i would sooooo love to have a 9,000rpm redline

 

[RipperXX]

So now comes one last question... will the SBR GT 14 be enough and spool quick as i want?

and does anyone know how long it takes this turbo to spool to say 25 psi on a well setup car?

and where does it start makeing boost?

 

[RipperXX]

BTW, what waste gate would you guys recomend?


hmm so far after adding up my entire parts list it comes up to $12,828

not counting alot of odds and ends.. and then the pain job, body kit & recovered interior..

wow i think this is going to come right up to the limit im willing to spend....figures.


oh well if i pass my GED in 2 weeks and get the job with my bro i should have all this done in 8-9 months (i hope) which also figures since raceing seasion will be closed oh well i guess that gives me plenty of time to learn how to tune it right and break it in good...

 

[gritsak]

dont forget the tranny, clutch, and a shitload of replacment parts....im in the middle of a buildup right now and im soo broke its not funny.

about the wastegate...ide go with a tial or an hks

i personally have a tial 40mm on my car but they stopped making it...either a 38m or a 46mm now

the hks are super nice...the standard 40mm should do fine, or you could go with a big gt series

 

[RipperXX]

i saw some 40mm ones on dsmotorsports a min ago i think..


but yea i got all the other stuff in a .doc file with price's and links beside it. im just asking about the engine here...


i guess i could update the info above though...

 

[swordfish]

Yes, that head will work. But I suggest that if you want to rev to 9K then do the long rod setup. The thing is, you dont have to spin the 4G64 past 8K for it to make rediculous amount of power.

The 255 will be just barely enough. Maybe.

I am running a Tial 46mm gate. It really just depends on how low an amount of boost you want to run. The lower you want, the bigger the gate you will need.

That GT14 is going to spool up like a freakin pinwheel. With that small 7cm based housing, it will be making full boost before 3500. But it will also be choking the crap out of thing on the top end. I would at least do a regular garrett setup of some sort with at least a T350 turbine wheel in a .82AR turbine housing. Plus, that GT14 is $1500. You can get a full garrett setup (non BB) with manifold and gate for that.

jeff

 

[RipperXX]

heh, i figured you would want a larger gate for a larger amount of boost.. wait theres that whole serfus area x pressure = force or something like that thing... i guess a 38mm or 40mm would be best then.


hmm so you think 8,000 rpm would be enough with the setup im going to build to make 500whp daily and maybe 600hp on c-16 and propane ?

Also, are there any disadvantages to useing longer rods? wont that cause it to raise the compression and the stroke? makeing it more than 2.4L ? i mainly want the head room of 9,00rpm and then not rev past 8,500 that way i know im not pushing the engine to it's limit.. as this will be a daily driver and i want it to last..

or could it take 8,000 fine? (with standard sized rods)

 

[swordfish]

No, its larger gate for less boost. IE, if you wanna run 10psi you are going to need a larger gate to bypass all the extra exhaust gases around the turbine wheel. Whereas if you are only going to run 18 psi at the lowest, then you can use a smaller gate because more of the exhuast gas is flowing through the turbine housing and turbine wheel in order to make that boost. Less is being bypassed through the gate.

On long rod engines the displacement doesnt change. The rod is longer but the wrist pin is moved up in the piston to accomodate for the longer rod. You will then have a rod ratio of 1.56:1 instead of 1.50:1 which is what the stock 150mm rod length of the 4G64 will give you.

You should be fine revving to 8k on the '64 and stock length rods though.

There arent really any disadvantages to a long rod engine in our application.

jeff

 

[RipperXX]

I heard someone say they use more oil or something about the pistons doesn't do something at TDC that it does on the 150mm rods.

 

[rdrkt]

RipperXX: I sent you my thoughts by email.

Two thoughts that I want EVERYONE on this board to get through their heads. 1. A bolt on turbo would be a CRAPPY choice on a 2.4. I get full boost on my big as AGP56 trim with the 5 bolt 82 ar exhaust housing by 4200 rpms. If you want quicker spool get a different car. 2. A factory ECU is NOT up to the task of trying to manage that much power. Your map will be entirely different then the stock map buck up and get a standalone.

 

[RipperXX]

Ok, well what is a very good but afordable stand alone?

Insted of just telling me a bolt on is a crapy choice, could you tell me why I shouldn't go with the SBR GT-14? It seems like a great turbo IMO. (But then I have little hands on experiance with large turbos so I will defently take note of anything you wish to tell me.)

What turbo would you recomend?
What is the best exhaust manifold for this turbo?
What clutch do you use? The ACT 2900 is out of the question, it's not streetable enough.



P.S. Thanks to every one for lending me there thoughts.

 

[gritsak]

Originally posted by RipperXX
Ok, well what is a very good but afordable stand alone?

Insted of just telling me a bolt on is a crapy choice, could you tell me why I shouldn't go with the SBR GT-14? It seems like a great turbo IMO. (But then I have little hands on experiance with large turbos so I will defently take note of anything you wish to tell me.)

What turbo would you recomend?
What is the best exhaust manifold for this turbo?




P.S. Thanks to every one for lending me there thoughts.

just get the AGP turbo kit..they offer up to a 60-1 in t3 platform (thats what ive got) and it will support 500hp...if you want to step it up then i think they have t4 kits in the works.

comes with a nice manifold, turbo, o2 housing, oil lines, external gate, dump tube...it makes things so much easier when you buy a good kit like this

 

[RipperXX]

hmm sounds good to me, do you have a link? (although im honustly and no im not jokeing.. is 500whp enough to run a low 11?)

Also rdrkt just how much WHP do you have?

 

[gritsak]

Originally posted by RipperXX
hmm sounds good to me, do you have a link? (although im honustly and no im not jokeing.. is 500whp enough to run a low 11?)

Also rdrkt just how much WHP do you have?

500whp is plenty to run solid 10's depending how your car is set up..you can definitely be in the 11's

heres a link to the AGP kit

http://www.agpturbo.com/kit.htm

its really well put together and fits awsome.

 

[RipperXX]

Well thats good news.

All I am realy looking for is low 11's But I want the thing to be overbuilt so it will HOPEFULLY be more reliable..

And I asume there would be no real issues runing lower boost leavles and 93 octane on the street with this turbo?