Welcome to DSMtuners - the largest Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, 4G63t and 420A DSM performance resource on the web



















Login



Go Back   DSMtuners > DSM Forums > DSM Tech > Bolt-on Tech
Welcome to DSMtuners - the largest Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, 4G63t and 420A DSM performance resource
You are browsing the site as a GUEST. Please login (or register) and gain the ability to post on our site and interact with other DSMers. You also get to browse the site with fewer advertisements. It is FREE to join!

Bolt-on Tech: 4G63 intake, exhaust, intake manifold, ignition, fuel system, cooling, etc.

Reply
 
LinkBack   Thread Tools
Old 06-04-2002, 11:28 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #1 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

snipe99999's Avatar
Registered: May 2002
Tech Posts: 238
Photos: 4
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: snipe99999 is an unknown

Harmonic Balancer gone bad...happen to anyone else? [MERGE]


Does anyone know what this does? I took my car to the dealer because it was making a poping and a squeeling noise and they told me that this was what was wrong with it. They also told me that it was cause by someone putting the belts on to tight.

View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 12:07 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #2 (permalink)
DSMtuners Wiseman
 

GRNDSM's Avatar
Registered: May 2002
Tech Posts: 1,750
Photos: 17
Classified Ads: 1
Classifieds Rating: 9
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
“Harmonic balancer” is really “torsional harmonic damper”, it is used to cancel out some harmful harmonics in your crankshaft. It is made from two metal parts bonded together with rubber. That rubber dries out and the two metal parts separate. It usually happens after 5-10 years of use. I have never heard of 4 year old part failing, but I guess anything is possible…. Especially if you belts were over tightened.

When they fail they can take out your timing belt causing thousands of $$$ in damage… So that is not something that one should ignore. Many people change them as PM.

I would advise to stay away from solid underdrive pulleys, as they get rid of harmonic balancer feature. You will not damage your engine from that thing separating (it is all one piece), but you could damage your motor bearings… So ether go with new factory until (which will need to be replaced in another 5-10 years) or if you can afford, BR makes an underdrive pulley with fluid damper build in.


____________________________
Leon R
96 Spyder GST
93 Eagle Summit TSI AWD
Visit GRNDSM's homepage!  View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 12:11 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #3 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

snipe99999's Avatar
Registered: May 2002
Tech Posts: 238
Photos: 4
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: snipe99999 is an unknown
Thanks
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 04:02 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #4 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

4Banger's Avatar
Registered: May 2002
Tech Posts: 9
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: 4Banger is an unknown
I have a 99gsx and mine failed with 35k miles, I instaled a underdrive pulley from extreme turbo, It's way cheaper than a damper pulley, but if you have the cash go for the underdrive damper. I believe Buschur Racing sells one.

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 04:09 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #5 (permalink)
jw jw is offline
Proven Member
 

jw's Avatar
Registered: Dec 2001
Tech Posts: 392
Photos: 2
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: jw is more helpful than not
There is another company selling which looks pretty good.
http://www.fisherconcepts.com/
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 04:37 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #6 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

GVR-4's Avatar
Registered: May 2002
Tech Posts: 44
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: GVR-4 is an unknown
Dude, my harmonic balancer just failed and I replaced it with an Unorthadox Racing underdrive pulley. It was about $220 shipped to my door in three days. The stock balancer is about eight pounds (I can't remember exactly), and the billet (aluminum) replacement pulley is under three. (They say every pound of rotating mass you remove is worth 2.7 hp.) It gave me a little better bottom end, better mileage (theoretically) and won't ever fail. I would do more research into these types of pulleys causing damage/problems. I weighed the risks (if there are any) and decided it was worth it. People remove their balance shafts all the time without having the bottom end balanced. I would think that that would put more strain on the engine (as far as balance issues go) than replacing the harmonic balancer with an underdrive pulley.

Just my $.02...

dp


____________________________
1992

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 05:13 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #7 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

SPEEDY's Avatar
Registered: Apr 2002
Tech Posts: 603
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: SPEEDY is an unknown
Quote:
Originally posted by GVR-4
Dude, my harmonic balancer just failed and I replaced it with an Unorthadox Racing underdrive pulley. It was about $220 shipped to my door in three days. The stock balancer is about eight pounds (I can't remember exactly), and the billet (aluminum) replacement pulley is under three. (They say every pound of rotating mass you remove is worth 2.7 hp.) It gave me a little better bottom end, better mileage (theoretically) and won't ever fail. I would do more research into these types of pulleys causing damage/problems. I weighed the risks (if there are any) and decided it was worth it. People remove their balance shafts all the time without having the bottom end balanced. I would think that that would put more strain on the engine (as far as balance issues go) than replacing the harmonic balancer with an underdrive pulley.

Just my $.02...

dp
Hey dude where abouts in Asheville do you live? I live here in Enka-candler. It's good to see someone that's into DSM's, that lives near by. Anthony

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 05:15 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #8 (permalink)
jw jw is offline
Proven Member
 

jw's Avatar
Registered: Dec 2001
Tech Posts: 392
Photos: 2
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: jw is more helpful than not
I would never run an underdrive crankshaft pulley w/o a damper on my car. Period. The HP gain is just not worth the risk involved. Unless you have a race motor and has balanced for high rpm, you are risking for bearings failure. Imagine the crank rotating at high rpm and the thing started vibrating. Putting that into a daily driven... You decide.
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 05:33 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #9 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

GVR-4's Avatar
Registered: May 2002
Tech Posts: 44
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: GVR-4 is an unknown
Like I said earlier, has that happened to anyone you know because they replaced their harmonic balancer with an underdrive pulley?

Anthony, I'm in north Asheville, near The Hop on Merrimon.

dp


____________________________
1992

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 05:44 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #10 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

SPEEDY's Avatar
Registered: Apr 2002
Tech Posts: 603
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: SPEEDY is an unknown
Quote:
Originally posted by GVR-4
Like I said earlier, has that happened to anyone you know because they replaced their harmonic balancer with an underdrive pulley?

Anthony, I'm in north Asheville, near The Hop on Merrimon.

dp
That's cool man, maybe we could hook up sometime and share some lies ! On a side note... I have an ASP crank pulley, billet aluminum, It's suppose to add about 10whp.

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 05:52 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #11 (permalink)
jw jw is offline
Proven Member
 

jw's Avatar
Registered: Dec 2001
Tech Posts: 392
Photos: 2
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: jw is more helpful than not
None of the guys I know run underdrive pulley. Even if they do and nothing happens to their car, will I do it? The answer is still NO.
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 11:05 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #12 (permalink)
DSMtuners Wiseman
 

GRNDSM's Avatar
Registered: May 2002
Tech Posts: 1,750
Photos: 17
Classified Ads: 1
Classifieds Rating: 9
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
>People remove their balance shafts all the time without having the
>bottom end balanced. I would think that that would put more strain on
>the engine (as far as balance issues go) than replacing the harmonic ?>balancer with an underdrive pulley.

Dude,

That is a very ignorant statement... We can argue all we want about merits of harmonic dampers but here are some basic engine FACTS:

# 1 balance shaft have nothing to do with engine balance in a sense that we are talking about them, they cancel out inherent vibration in 4 cylinder inline engines (notice now V engines never have balance shaft, but they have "harmonic balancers")
# 2 "Harmonic Balancer" has nothing to do with balance... Its real name is harmonic damper and many people mistakenly call them balancers...

Using both of those when talking about balancing bottom end (something that is done in a machine shop prior to engine assembly) is not correct.

These are very common mistakes for normal people to make. But what is scary is that companies who manufacture solid underdrive pulley use the same incorrect arguments. Showing that they are ether:

- clueless, or
- fraudulent

Ether way, that does not speak well of them...

IMHO, solid underdrive pulley might be worth the risk on 150 NT motors (like found in Hondas). Where ~5 hp that you get from one of those pulleys (that is more real number that I saw in the mags), is more noticeable because it is ~4% of power. Put the same pulley on a 400hp DSM motor and you will never notice those extra 5 horses…

Leon
RR


____________________________
Leon R
96 Spyder GST
93 Eagle Summit TSI AWD
Visit GRNDSM's homepage!  View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2002, 07:09 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #13 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

GVR-4's Avatar
Registered: May 2002
Tech Posts: 44
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: GVR-4 is an unknown
GRANDSM, I am not ignorant of the difference between balance issues inherent in an inline 4 and harmonic vibration that occurs at various rpm. What I am ignorant of is which has more potential to cause problems/damage to the engine. You guys could be right: maybe bearings, main caps, crank, rods or some other internal parts would fail in a high output engine without a harmonic dampener. But I'd like to hear about it. If somebody has a story about such an occurrence, please share it. For that matter, share an incident that resulted from a bottom end not being balanced. I have by no means learned all there is about the 4g63 and what works and what doesn't.

dp


____________________________
1992

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2002, 07:50 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #14 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

GVR-4's Avatar
Registered: May 2002
Tech Posts: 44
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: GVR-4 is an unknown
Anthony:

Sounds good. Send me an e-mail. There's another guy in Asheville with a VR-4. We met recently and "shared some lies."

dp


____________________________
1992

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2002, 07:54 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #15 (permalink)
DSMtuners Wiseman
 

GRNDSM's Avatar
Registered: May 2002
Tech Posts: 1,750
Photos: 17
Classified Ads: 1
Classifieds Rating: 9
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
Well, balance shafts are there purely for driver's comfort. Removing them has no ill effect on the engine itself. Personally, I consider them a liability, so getting rid of them will improve engine’s reliability (two less things that can go wrong .

As for solid underdrive pulley. Opinions vary a lot. There are several top DSM tuners who have noticed strange bearing wear when using those pulleys. The problem went away when they switch to a pulley with a damper. But there are also a lot of people who are using them and everything seems to be OK.

As much as I dislike those things, I can not say that if you use them you will destroy your engine. But why risk it? Turbo DSMs can make a LOT of power. What is 5hp going to do? I have tried underdrive pulley on high 11 sec car and made some back to back runs (with and without it). I could not notice any difference...

I guess everyone should decide if this is worth the risk in THEIR own car. The problem is that companies who sell those things do tell owners the full truth about them. So, many people install them on their daily drivers, thinking that they are totally benign. Which I do not believe that they are...

Leon
RR


____________________________
Leon R
96 Spyder GST
93 Eagle Summit TSI AWD
Visit GRNDSM's homepage!  View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2002, 04:11 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #16 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

SPEEDY's Avatar
Registered: Apr 2002
Tech Posts: 603
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: SPEEDY is an unknown
Quote:
Originally posted by GRNDSM
Well, balance shafts are there purely for driver's comfort. Removing them has no ill effect on the engine itself. Personally, I consider them a liability, so getting rid of them will improve engine’s reliability (two less things that can go wrong .

As for solid underdrive pulley. Opinions vary a lot. There are several top DSM tuners who have noticed strange bearing wear when using those pulleys. The problem went away when they switch to a pulley with a damper. But there are also a lot of people who are using them and everything seems to be OK.

As much as I dislike those things, I can not say that if you use them you will destroy your engine. But why risk it? Turbo DSMs can make a LOT of power. What is 5hp going to do? I have tried underdrive pulley on high 11 sec car and made some back to back runs (with and without it). I could not notice any difference...

I guess everyone should decide if this is worth the risk in THEIR own car. The problem is that companies who sell those things do tell owners the full truth about them. So, many people install them on their daily drivers, thinking that they are totally benign. Which I do not believe that they are...

Leon
RR
Hmmm... that's strange because I have before me an old turbo mag where they dyno'd a 1g turbo eclipse with an unorthodox pulley and they pulled 10.1 hp at the wheels. Which at the crank translates into around 15 hp. They said it was a great mod for the money.

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2002, 10:40 AM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #17 (permalink)
DSMtuners Wiseman
 

GRNDSM's Avatar
Registered: May 2002
Tech Posts: 1,750
Photos: 17
Classified Ads: 1
Classifieds Rating: 9
Reputation: You can trust this leader of the site
> that's strange because I have before me an old turbo mag where they
> dyno'd a 1g turbo eclipse with an unorthodox pulley and they pulled
>10.1 hp at the wheels.

Yes, I remember that Project Talon, which read like what NOT to do on a DSM… As I recall they also quoted a manufacturer of that pulley as saying that this is not a harmonic damper but rather a “accessory belt damper”. If you read DSM Technical manual, it clearly state that it is there dampen harmonics out of the crankshaft.

They were blindly following what the manufacturer (who puts a lot of adds in EVERY Turbo Magazine) told them. Turbo Magazine lost of a lot credibility in my eyes after that article. It was one thing putting stupid mods on their Talon (there is some merit in being original). It is another story when you kiss sponsor’s a$$ and repeat marketing BS, which I am sure, they knew was wrong…

>Which at the crank translates into around 15 hp. They said it was a great mod for the money.

I have seen other tests yielding 4-5 hp at the wheels… And I also know what I have experienced first hand.


____________________________
Leon R
96 Spyder GST
93 Eagle Summit TSI AWD
Visit GRNDSM's homepage!  View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2002, 02:48 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #18 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

SPEEDY's Avatar
Registered: Apr 2002
Tech Posts: 603
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: SPEEDY is an unknown
Quote:
Originally posted by GRNDSM
> that's strange because I have before me an old turbo mag where they
> dyno'd a 1g turbo eclipse with an unorthodox pulley and they pulled
>10.1 hp at the wheels.

Yes, I remember that Project Talon, which read like what NOT to do on a DSM… As I recall they also quoted a manufacturer of that pulley as saying that this is not a harmonic damper but rather a “accessory belt damper”. If you read DSM Technical manual, it clearly state that it is there dampen harmonics out of the crankshaft.

They were blindly following what the manufacturer (who puts a lot of adds in EVERY Turbo Magazine) told them. Turbo Magazine lost of a lot credibility in my eyes after that article. It was one thing putting stupid mods on their Talon (there is some merit in being original). It is another story when you kiss sponsor’s a$$ and repeat marketing BS, which I am sure, they knew was wrong…

>Which at the crank translates into around 15 hp. They said it was a great mod for the money.

I have seen other tests yielding 4-5 hp at the wheels… And I also know what I have experienced first hand.
I understand where your coming from, and I appreciate your advice on not using a crank pulley. For each his own, I guess. I have a "2g" so my crank is prone to walk anyways whether I use a pulley or not. I'm prepared for that, so I guess I will take a chance on one. 4-5 hp at the wheels is still about 10 hp at the crank. In comparison I paid $80 bucks for my pulley. I also paid around $80 bucks for my K&N fipk, which in return makes about as much power as the pulley does, so I don't see any problem with just 4-5 whp if that's all that's gained. I think if I'm not mistaken DSM performance had the whole 2g unorthodox kit installed on a 2g, with no other mods, and did a test on there car and knocked about 4-5 tenths off there previous 1/4 time. They showed the timeslip on there web site awhile back to prove it. Later!!!

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2002, 03:04 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #19 (permalink)
IPT IPT is offline
Proven Member
 

IPT's Avatar
Registered: Mar 2002
Tech Posts: 1,075
Photos: 3
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: IPT is more helpful than not
Send a message via Yahoo to IPT
The 2G DSM Performance was modded. lightly. Boost controller, exhaust and uip. Stock turbo.

I asked them once about them about the pulleys They said that typical gains they see are .2-.5 tenths off 1/4 mile times. Most of the numbers are off lightly modded cars. They ALSO recommend that you have the motor balanced. That is not really something most people do. I guess it is just a risk to take if you want. It is just like modding any car. If I put on a bigger turbo and try to tune the car for more power. Is there a risk with that Hell Yeah!! But there can be more power to have.
View photos of this member's car 

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2002, 04:14 PM Show Printable Version Show Printable Version   Email this Post to a Friend Email this Post      #20 (permalink)
Proven Member
 

SPEEDY's Avatar
Registered: Apr 2002
Tech Posts: 603
Classifieds Rating: 0
Reputation: SPEEDY is an unknown
Quote:
Originally posted by IPT
The 2G DSM Performance was modded. lightly. Boost controller, exhaust and uip. Stock turbo.

I asked them once about them about the pulleys They said that typical gains they see are .2-.5 tenths off 1/4 mile times. Most of the numbers are off lightly modded cars. They ALSO recommend that you have the motor balanced. That is not really something most people do. I guess it is just a risk to take if you want. It is just like modding any car. If I put on a bigger turbo and try to tune the car for more power. Is there a risk with that Hell Yeah!! But there can be more power to have.
I stand corrected on the modded part, my bad. I would still take that .2-.5 tenths anyday, even it being a lightly modded car. Power gained is power gained. That's what were all after, at least I think it is, anyway. Later!!

mark post as helpful recommend reputation points    Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

 

» Recent DSM Photo
» Current Poll
How many times have you been to the Shootout?
1 - 40.00%
168 Votes
2-5 - 41.67%
175 Votes
6-10 - 10.48%
44 Votes
11-15 - 3.10%
13 Votes
16-20 - 4.76%
20 Votes
Total Votes: 420
You may not vote on this poll.
» Online Users: 975
283 members and 692 guests
Most users ever online was 1,704, 03-17-2008 at 09:11 PM.
DSMtuners Main Sections
DSM Forums
DSM Regional Forums
DSM Builds/Journals
DSM Articles
DSM Tech Guides
DSM Upgrade Paths
DSM Parts Reviews
DSM Vendor Reviews

DSM Classifieds
DSM Parts Guides
DSM Photos
DSM Videos
DSM Timeslips
DSM Dyno Sheets
Shirts & Apparel
DSMtuners Decals

Advertising Info
Our Sponsors
Site Rules
Terms of Service
Privacy Policy
Site FAQ
About Us
Contact Us

© 2014 DSMtuners.com - All Rights Reserved

DSMtuners is not affiliated with Diamond Star Motors. The Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, Plymouth Laser, Mitsubishi Galant VR-4, and associated logos are trademarks of Diamond Star Motors, Mitsubishi Motors, and Chrysler Corporation. No, we do not hand out car sponsorships.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:55 PM.


Vendor Tools vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0