Catch Can setup HELP!

[4g63t]

OK so here is the deal. I installed a catch can setup last year and thought i had it figured out. I got the can from "Calan" on here and I made the an lines. Had not ran the car much with this on but now its time to get it tuned.

The turbo is new and has like 1k on it so i don't think it could be the issue.

When I start it cold and let it worm up my car smokes allot. It looks like its pushing oil right past the turbo seals into the exhaust.(looks oily right on the v-band where it has a small exhaust leak.) Also when I drive it the smoke comes and goes.

Here are some pics of how I have it set up. IT cant be right because it did not smoke at all before I put this on. Any help on what I have effed up would be awesome. Thanks!

 

[P3Kans DSM]

I did the exact same thing going off a diagram on here I found. But its wrong and I had the same symptoms your having. The pcv needs to go to the intake manifold and the left vc goes to the intake pipe. Route it that way I garuntee your smoking and oil problem will stop. Mine did.

 

[4g63t]

I don't have a PCV any more Do i need some type of check valve? I'm lost

 

[Aproductions]

That was how I was going to do mine too. I know stock is VC nipple to intake and PCV to Intake manifold.


You could just put a can in between one or both of those ^ ways.

I wanna see more info on this smoking issue though because I like that way.

 

[Calan]

I did the exact same thing going off a diagram on here I found. But its wrong...

No, that is exactly the way it should be set up since he's deleted the PCV valve.

*****

The only things I can thing of off the top of my head:

1. What size are the VC fittings? Did you enlarge both ports to allow plenty of airflow?
2. How are you tapping into the air intake at the turbo?
3. What type of turbo is it, and what is the drain configuration?

The only way that CC pressure would cause oil in the exhaust is if it is so high that oil can't properly drain from the turbo and it's being blown past the seals..which means there is either:

a). a restriction in the lines or can, or there isn't enough (or any) suction being supplied to the can from the turbo inlet, or

b). you don't have a big enough drain on the turbo or it's restricted.

You might try disconnecting the VC lines temporarily and see if you notice a difference. (Don't run it too long or you'll have oil all over the engine bay). Try to put some low restriction air breather filters over the fittings if possible to catch any heavy oil mist that might blow through. But, they can't pose any restriction at all or you won't solve anything.

Another possibility is that you may be feeding too much oil to the turbo, and it has nothing to do with the CC pressure.

Since you have ECMLink, you might try to find a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor and an extra input on the ECU, and log the CC pressure to see where it's at. Also, blow through the lines going into the can and and make sure that air flows freely. You'll notice a little resistance from the filters, but it shouldn't be very much at all. If it's hard to blow through, you most likely have clogged them up somehow... but I've only heard of that happening once out of all the cans I've sold.

BTW - Do you still have the baffles in the VC?

More questions:

1. Are you sure the smoke is burning oil, and not carbon from running too rich?
2. Do you have a log you can post?
3. Does it smoke only during boost, while in vacuum, or both?

 

[4g63t]

No, that is exactly the way it should be set up since he's deleted the PCV valve.

*****

The only things I can thing of off the top of my head:

1. What size are the VC fittings? Did you enlarge both ports to allow plenty of airflow?

-12 an They have a clear shot into the vc. The baffles are still intact.

2. How are you tapping into the air intake at the turbo?

IT goes straight into the intake pipe. -12 to 3/4

3. What type of turbo is it, and what is the drain configuration?

PTE 6262, I'm not sure on the drain size right off hand i know its not a AN line. Just barbs and oil resistant hose. One thing comes to mind. I used allot of RTV on the oil pain to get it to seal. SO possible restriction there.

The only way that CC pressure would cause oil in the exhaust is if it is so high that oil can't properly drain from the turbo and it's being blown past the seals..which means there is either:

a). a restriction in the lines or can, or there isn't enough (or any) suction being supplied to the can from the turbo inlet, or

I don't think there is suction being applied at idle.

b). you don't have a big enough drain on the turbo or it's restricted.

You might try disconnecting the VC lines temporarily and see if you notice a difference. (Don't run it too long or you'll have oil all over the engine bay). Try to put some low restriction air breather filters over the fittings if possible to catch any heavy oil mist that might blow through. But, they can't pose any restriction at all or you won't solve anything.

Another possibility is that you may be feeding too much oil to the turbo, and it has nothing to do with the CC pressure.

Since you have ECMLink, you might try to find a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor and an extra input on the ECU, and log the CC pressure to see where it's at. Also, blow through the lines going into the can and and make sure that air flows freely. You'll notice a little resistance from the filters, but it shouldn't be very much at all. If it's hard to blow through, you most likely have clogged them up somehow... but I've only heard of that happening once out of all the cans I've sold.

I have a extra gm 3bar laying around. The car is running on sd.
I will have to try blowing through the lines to make sure its not gummed up. Witch wouldn't surprise me. Its been sitting for a while and I did drain some e85 out of it a while back.

BTW - Do you still have the baffles in the VC?

Yes

More questions:


1. Are you sure the smoke is burning oil, and not carbon from running too rich?

I'm positive that it is related to the way i have it set up. Not from fuel. I can see the oil leaking out of the v-band flange through a small exhaust leek I have.

2. Do you have a log you can post?

File is attached.

3. Does it smoke only during boost, while in vacuum, or both?

It does not smoke under boost. Seams to only smoke when it is in vacuum. Mostly at idle and part throttle cruising

 

[Calan]

The configuration you are running will do virtually nothing while the car is operating in vacuum; the main purpose of that ^ is to provide relief for excessive pressure buildup during boost.

Without a PCV valve, you may see some positive CC pressure while just cruising around. In that case, you may be better off putting the PCV valve back in and only using the breather line off the VC to the can, until you can find another VC and add an extra port (which is ideal). If you do this, be sure to cap the unused can inlet and watch closely for any pressure build up during boost conditions.

I still wouldn't rule out an issue with the turbo's oil drain, and you definitely need to wire up a sensor and log the CC pressure.

FWIW, although I never had any oil burning issues or anything like that, the only time I've ever logged any positive CC pressure at all is with the PCV valve removed and during non-boost driving.

 

[Calan]

Can you tell for sure whether the oil is coming from the cylinders or the turbo?

 

[4g63t]

I'm going to rule out the simple things tomorrow after work. Then ill see where i'm at and what to do next. thanks for the help.

Can you tell for sure whether the oil is coming from the cylinders or the turbo?

Not for sure no. How could I do this?
I could pull the WG off and see if its oily inside.

 

[Calan]

Drop the turbo housing and see if there is oil residue in the exhaust manifold, or only from the turbine on. If it's up in the EM, it's being drawn past the rings (or possibly valve stem seals) and burning in the cylinders. If it's only around the turbine, it's blowing past the turbo seals and cooking in the exhaust housing.

NP - please keep us updated. I want to figure this out almost as much as you.

 

[4g63t]

Will do. Also if it helps it did not start smoking right away. It took about 4-5 min before it started poring out of the exhaust. Maybe once the oil got thin enough to bypass the rings or valve seals. IDK.

Drop the turbo housing and see if there is oil residue in the exhaust manifold, or only from the turbine on. If it's up in the EM, it's being drawn past the rings (or possibly valve stem seals) and burning in the cylinders. If it's only around the turbine, it's blowing past the turbo seals and cooking in the exhaust housing.

NP - please keep us updated. I want to figure this out almost as much as you.

 

[Calan]

Check these two posts out (starting in the middle of post #725):

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/393636-questions-justin-19.html#post152864355

 

[4g63t]

Well when i was unbolting the an lines on the vc i noticed a little liquid coming out of them. I pulled the can out and it takes all my breath to move air through the can. It dose not seam to matter witch spot i try to blow into it at. The filters have to be clogged up.
It must be the infamous e85 goo that i have seen before. I took a pic of what came out of it. Its a beer can about 1/4th full.

I'm going to try to soak it in gas and see if it gets some of the gunk out. If there is less resistance after cleaning it i will toss it back on and see what it does.

 

[Calan]

Do you have any liquid coming out of the VC with the car running? If you do, you are probably trying to push quite a bit through the cans, which isn't good with any can setup. And if this is the case:

Its been sitting for a while and I did drain some e85 out of it a while back.

...then it could have compounded the problem by absorbing moisture and mixing with the other gunk that was sitting in the can.

Rinse it several times with some gas, and it should break up most of the debris and clear it up considerably.

The next question is, why is there so much liquid coming out of your VC? My best guess for this would be the line tapped into the PCV port. The stock PCV valve has a snorkel on it to prevent oil from being sucked out of that opening, which sits at a point in the baffles where there is a lot of oil splash. With a straight fitting and line coming off of that port, liquid oil in the VC has a straight shot into the can.

To prevent this, it is much better to weld two 90* fittings to the top of the VC on each corner on the passenger side, like this:

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This also allows you to keep the PCV valve if you want, and the original VC breather port can be tapped and used for a sensor to log the CC pressure.

There was another thread where a person had this exact same issue, for the same reason. I'll see if I can dig it up.

 

[4g63t]

Ok the liquid did come out of the top hose. I forget how i welded them on. I will have to pop the cover off and see.

 

[Aproductions]

Not to thread jack but I have a question.

I have the same setup as this and if I do the 90 degree an fittings and shave/delete the VC nipple, should I delete the PCV too or run that stock?

I would not want an oil problem there like most of these cars have.

 

[Calan]

Not to thread jack...

And yet you did.

*****

I never recommend using the PCV port for a catch can line, for the reason mentioned above. Separate (and larger) VC outlets above the baffles are always a better solution.

That really isn't related to the question of whether or not to run a PCV valve though. That decision will depend on what you use the car for and how often you test/change the oil.

 

[Aproductions]

450 hp NOT DD (only driven in the summer and at car meets/some track.

New fully built motor btw.

Should I delete the pcv or run it stock? (I don't want oil in the pipes or IM)

 

[Calan]

Should I delete the pcv or run it stock? (I don't want oil in the pipes or IM)

I can't answer that for you Alex. You'll have to decide that for yourself based on what I've mentioned here and in the PCV article, and/or get some opinions from other people if you wish.

Let's stick to the OP's issue here please.

EDIT:

I get asked this a lot, so I added some info to the PCV Article that may help.

 

[4g63t]

So i pulled the vc off and found a few things whale the can is soaking in gas. First i found this awesome peace of metal sitting on top of a cam cap in my head.. It looks like it was trapped inside of a baffle and dropped down. Maybe a peace of a old pvc valve...? IT also looks like the hole in the middle has been drilled out because it is not centered..i'm just glad i have not ran the engine much with this in here..

Also if you look in the pic's you can see where the drill bit went to deep into the vc before welding the -12 nipple on.( right where the stock pvc would go) This would cause fluid to run straight into the can through this hole. So my question is.. How could i fill the little hole. I'm afraid jb weld would drop down into the valve train if it did not hold.. I could get a hold of a welder and fill it blahhh...

 

[Calan]

The snorkel on the PCV valve is pretty solid, and is not easy to remove. That looks more like a piece of the tube for the breather line. It looks like someone first cut it off and then tried to drill it out, which would explain the off-center hole as well as the rings around the outside of it where it was spinning in the VC. You are lucky it didn't find it's into the rockers or a valve spring.

I would say you found the source of your problem, or at least one of them. You might be able to weld a piece of thin metal over that area to extend the baffle, but I wouldn't trust it. Your best bet at this point is to get another VC and modify it as I explained above.

 

[4g63t]

Yeah, one of them haha. o well. I have a few laying in my garage. I might just try to rock one set back up with a pvc valve until i can fill the hole or make a new one. Thanks for the direction.

 

[Calan]

NP

Probably wouldn't hurt to pull that turbo oil drain and make sure it doesn't look like that pic that Justin posted, just to be safe.

 

[4g63t]

One more question. How easily should I be able to blow through the can? It got allot better but still has some resistance.

 

[Calan]

That's really hard to describe, but it shouldn't be very much. You should feel just enough resistance to know that there's a filter in it.

Sometimes it takes several rinses and soaking in gas to get everything broken up and cleaned out, if it's had a lot of liquid pumped through it...especially if it's been sitting a while.