Maxing out a 14B....what to do?

[sting0004]

I have a 2g. I want to buy and slowly max out the 14B turbo. After the 14B and a supra sidemount what should I get next? Is a walboro 195 fuel pump sufficient for a 14B? Would I need a new fpr or afc? How about new injectors? How much power could I expect from a 14B in a 2g if I tune it halfassly? I just dont have a pocket logger or a dyno so it would be kinda guess and check. Thanks alot, Matt

 

[Enigma_Man]

Personally, I would go with a 16G. Why upgrade to a used turbo that is barely better than what you have now? I don't know if you're dead set on a 14b, but it really depends on how much boost you want to run. If you're going to half-ass it, you're probably fine stock... You can't really not-datalog, and turn up the boost very much. (also, this is all conjecture, I have no actual experience with it)

-Jesse

 

[greathuskie]

i can get a good condition 14b for 75 dollars, a 16g will cost atleast 400....

 

[Enigma_Man]

It's still a used 14b.

I wasn't trying to tell anybody that the 14b is wrong. I was just giving out other alternatives

-Jesse

 

[sdees2002]

I have a 14B on my 2g and love it. (Click here to see my mod list.) I bought my used 14B for $200, BUT I was able to sell my T25 for $200 so it was practically free.
As for power with half ass tuning, my car dynoed at 291 hp and 251 lb ft tq at the wheels with half ass tuning. Granted the 2nd and 3rd run were 266hp and 245lb ft tq, thats still not bad for half ass tuning.

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In the graph on the right (AF ratio graph), you can tell how poorly tuned the car was. My car ran a bit richer from 5000rpm to redline on the 2nd and 3rd run so that explains some of the power difference (other factors were probably involved such as knock, timing, etc) I have a friend with a palm pilot and TUNERSTEIN and there is a chassis dyno nearby where I live so hopefully with some actual tuning and a few more mods (550cc injectors and intercooler upgrade) hopefully I'll make 300whp CONSISTENTLY 14b boosted

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[sdees2002]

Definately upgrade the fuel pump, S-AFC is highly recommended, and I'd even recommend larger injectors (550cc). You don't NEED the larger injectors but they can help out if you ever get a chance to tune with a datalogger/palm pilot of some sort and a S-AFC. It is my understanding that the lower your injector duty cycle is, the ECU will pull less timing. (the larger your injectors are, the lower your injector duty cycle will be at X amount of fuel flow) Ofcourse this is not the ONLY thing that effects how much timing is pulled, but one of the factors involved.

 

[Enraged78]

I just put this setup on my car this weekend. I got the 14B for $200.00, and have a T-25 to sell on EBay. I got an install kit from TDM, complete with 2.25" J-Pipe, new lines and fittings, and an XBC. I gasket match-ported the turbo, O2 sensor housing, and the exhaust manifold. I also removed the ring and step from the turbo to exhaust manifold. I'm running this turbo at ONLY 11 PSI (breaking it in), and it already beats the living snot out of my T-25 setup at 16 PSI, with a 21 PSI spike. Boost is very smooth and linear, not jerky like the T-25. I will be upping the boost to 13 LBS by the end of the week. By the way, when you do this setup, and port everything, get ready to learn all about boost creep. Mine creeps about 1.5 PSI.

sdees2002, is there any way that you could post your COMPLETE setup? I am going to be upgrading my exhaust and fuel system setup in the next few weeks, and would like to achieve the same results that you currently have...

Thanks in advance,
Matt.

 

[sdees2002]

Ported 14B, ported 02 sensor housing, Ractive filter, custom cold air intake box, Dejon 3" compressor inlet pipe, Dejon 2" J pipe, Road race engineering upper IC pipe w/ 1g BOV, Dejon manual boost controller, MSD 8.5mm wires, NGK BPR6ES plugs, Walbro 255lph HP fuel pump, Apexi S-AFC, DSM performance 2.5" downpipe, 2.5" test pipe, DSM-Performance 2.5" cat back, autometer boost and EGT gauges.
These are all the engine performance mods I had done at the time of the dyno run and was running about 18psi.

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[kingearl]

sting0004, to max out a 14b you will need a fuel pump, should rewire it to be safe, and a S-AFC or some other fuel control device. Injectors are not needed but will help.

sdees2002, so you ran 291 WHP? With those mods? That puzzles me. I dont know how much HP I'm pumping out. Can someone tell me if the tuning guide here on DSM Tuners is for 300 HP and 400 HP or 300 WHP and 400 WHP?

 

[CanadianTSi]

Sdees, looking at your dyno chart the title at the top says FLYWHEEL power not WHP, there is a Difference in the two...You prbably have more like 250-260 WHP.

 

[kingearl]

that would make a little more sense.

 

[candela]

I knew he was talking about that the whole time... Phil only made like 26x whp on his and he is that fastest in da world...

 

[4pistons]

Phil only made like 26x whp on his and he is that fastest in da world...

Phils car weighs 2850 lbs and ran the quarter mile at 113 mph. That would take 380+HP which would be about 325 at the wheels.

How can sdees2002 Dyno sheet be flywheel HP? How does a Chassis Dyno measure or calculate Flywheel HP? It could only do it if you could input the drivetrain loss before the run and that would be an estimate. It would be different for AWD, FWD, RWD, stick, automatic, etc. Estimating a loss like that would negate the whole purpose for a chassis dyno which is to read the actual power reaching the ground.

BTW, my 14B put down 252WHP, so it's not out of the question.

Rick - '91 GSX

 

[sdees2002]

Originally posted by CanadianTSi
Sdees, looking at your dyno chart the title at the top says FLYWHEEL power not WHP, there is a Difference in the two...You prbably have more like 250-260 WHP.

Not trying to start a flame war here, but look at the picture of my car on the dyno...

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How the HELL are you gonna measure flywheel hp by hooking up a machine TO THE WHEELS!!!?!?!?! The machine my car was dynoed on can also measure flywheel HP, if it's hooked up to a flywheel. It was not hooked up to the flywheel of my engine in this case, it was hooked up TO THE WHEELS!

 

[candela]

Well it says there right on the top of the damn dyno chart that it is flywheel torque... maybe it was run through some dumb program or somethign that converted I know they can make that power and Im not trying to give you sh!t about it but what it says is what it sayd... But it says it, plus its not very likely that with your mods at only 18psi on a 14b that you woudl make that much power. Maybe I am mistaked but I have never seen a dyno that high with a 14b @ 18psi ...


http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23545&highlight=14b+dyno

 

[sdees2002]

OK. Out of 3 runs, 1 was 291 and the others were 265. Torque didn't vary as much (251 and 245)... These 3 runs were made within about 5 minutes, maybe even less. This wasn't done at a performance shop, it was at a car show. Not to mention it was a hot ass day in Georgia. First run was 290. Before the 2nd run, I tried messing with the S-AFC a little to see what would happen. Richened things up. 265hp. After that run, the guy working the computer told me to richen things up some more because I was running to lean. It didn't make sense to me because my O2 readings were at .96 or so but for the sake of saving an arguement I just agreed with him and richened it up even more. 265 again. I was done. The next weekend I went to the track. Out of 5 runs, my traps were consistant at 100-101mph. Car + me + 1/3 tank gas + subwoofer (no weight reduction at all, not even spare tire) ~ 3250. Estimate WHP using the trap speed and weight method = 265hp. I NEVER ran my car before with my current setup before I dynoed it, and I did not mess with the S-AFC afterwards. I did run it with the 14B before I dynoed it, but I had BPR7ES plugs, a boost leak, an exhaust leak, and did not have the cold air shield. Traps were consistant at about 97mph that day. I met a person with a very similar setup as mine (2g FWD w/ 14B), and he trapped in the 107mph range. Even if you just use the curb weight of a 2g FWD (2975), that equates to about 290whp.

SO THE POINT IS, even though the graph says flywheel hp, it is not flywheel hp, it IS wheel hp. The machine they used to dyno my car is not a chassis dyno only. It did not have rollers. It can be used to measure flywheel hp also if it is hooked up to a flywheel. The software may say FLYWHEEL hp, but the machine will measure wheel hp when hooked up at the wheels. Trust me, my engine wasn't pulled out so they could measure my flywheel hp...

Hmmm... what so hard to believe about my mods seeing 290whp at 18psi?? The guy in the link you posted has similar engine performance mods and using the weight and trap speed method makes 320+whp @ 20psi. I dont swear by the weight and trap speed method of calculating whp BUT it gives a fairly close estimate...



http://www.corral.net/tech/horsepower.html

Race weight: car+me+1/4 tank or so gas= 2850 lbs.

Mods: K&N, XBC, Magnecor wires, BPR7ES plugs, ported '95 mani, ported turbine housing, portedO2 dump, 2.5' DP, test, 3" ATR, DSM performance underdrive crank pulley, Extreme fuel pump. Eibach pro, KYB AGX, Power Slot rotors, stainless lines, Axxix pads, full Energy Bushing kit, Prothane motor mount kit, ACT 2600-full face disc, front and rear strut braces, lower honeycomb removed as well as divider wall in that same lower chamber, TB coolant bypass, EGR block.

...Anyway, the last time at the strip and my first time down here in Maryland.....@20psi only, I ran [email protected] right off the bat...

 

[4pistons]

sdees2002,
You're making good power with that 14B. You're right, a dyno that is connected to your wheels (whether bolted or by contact) can ONLY measure WHEEL HP. There's no way it can measure flywheel HP unless it's bolted to the crankshaft.

I made 252 WHP on my 14B with ALOT of knock.(35+) I ran mine at 16 lbs. and with stock size pipes (1 7/8") on a Starion FMIC. Another club member with a '92 GSX with the 14B put down 265 WHP with a similar setup the same day. It's definitely doable. Your dragstrip runs verify your dyno numbers too. Pay no attention to the naysayers, you've got facts and data.

Rick - '91 GSX

 

[DrZiplok]

He measured it using a Dynopack.

'nuff said.

Remember folks; every dyno is different, and many of them are pretty dodgy.

 

[4pistons]

Remember folks; every dyno is different,

Yes, you're correct but they are not off by 40 HP from one to the next. sdees2002 dyno numbers are backed up by his dragstrip runs and are consistant. I'd say he's got pretty accurate numbers.

and many of them are pretty dodgy

Don't discount someones measured data because you FEEL it's "dodgy". Unless you've got test data on which are the good dynos and which aren't that's a pretty baseless statement. I don't mean to rip on anyone but if you can't dispute his numbers with facts and logic don't dispute it.

Rick - '91 GSX

 

[Keaka26]

Yes, you're correct but they are not off by 40 HP from one to the next. sdees2002 dyno numbers are backed up by his dragstrip runs and are consistant. I'd say he's got pretty accurate numbers.

I'll have to argue that one. The dyno that they have a Vishnu yields MUCH lower numbers than a dynojet, i believe they have a mustang dyno, but dont quote me on that. I think a stock EVO dynod with like 50 less horsepower at vishnu compared to a dynojet.