ok, will it hold?

[larryd]

Head/Valvetrain

Ported 2g head
Crower Stage 2 Cams
Crower Springs/Retainers
Crower 1mm oversized SS Valves
Crower Cam Gears

Block

90-92 6 bolt block
91 Rods
95 Pistons
Balanced block

Misc
ARP Head Studs
OEM Head Gasket

all the other mods are on my webpage if you dont know already. anyhow I plan on getting a dsmlink and I want to increase the rev limiter to 8500rpms. I also plan on getting an Nx kit and running either a 50 or 75 shot depending on street/track.

So basically I just wanna make sure that with this setup, will the engine be ok?? God knows ive had enuf problems but I figure that if Im building all this Im going to go fast one way or another. Im figuring on close to 400whp with the nitrous once the car is tuned.

 

[gst_spyder]

Larry with all that talk about you wanting a Green I think you should step-up to the big boy sh*t for the bottom end. That way you won't have to re-upgrade later cause i'm sure your tired of being down by now Also stock pistons don't like nitrous and stock rods like R's (like 8500) so put all that together and I think your asking for it.

Mario

 

[NosLaser]

Larry,

I'm sure the majority will disagree, but I think you should do the bottom end right ONCE and never have to worry about it again. Not only are you trying to push the HP limit of stock internals, but you also think you have a Rotary trying to rev to 8500 rpm. In a word, 'no' it will not hold. I'm sure Grndsm or whatever his name is will chime in saying "John Sheppard swapped a 7 bolt motor into his 1G and replaced the rods with celery sticks and revved to 23,000 rpm and made 660 HP to the wheels on 2% milk" but the long and short of it is, you are asking for trouble. What happens is this. When you start making high cylinder pressure, the piston becomes increasingly heavy as the rod is on it's downstroke. When you start adding rpm to the equation, the crank can start to move faster than the piston and can cause catostrophic damage. A cast piston will likely shatter under the pressure. I highly suggest going with Eagle Rods, and maybe a JE or Ross piston. You can even get a set of used pistons on the trader, have them cleaned up, magnafluxed, and ceramic coated and save a good amount of money. Do it this way, and you will thank me in the long run. Good luck.

Regards,

 

[larryd]

well the reason I didnt want to step up and buy pistons/rods is because something about having to let them warm up and they dont run right when the car is cold and for a daily driver you really should use stock.. any of this sound right??

and yes your right.. if my block is bad which im going to do another compression test then I want to do it right the first time.. I dont intend on doing this again but I want to get wahts best for me, not just whats best..

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

With the power you plan to run I suggest rods and pistons. I'm mean maybe w/o the nitrous I would stay with 91 rods 95 pistons, but the nitrous makes me nervous.

later,

 

[larryd]

i understand.. what are the limitations of the 91 rods and 95 pistons? I was told 440whp which id still be well below.

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

Right but it's not just the HP number. It's the fact the nitous is creating so much more pressure that can snap a rod.

Later,

 

[NosLaser]

You are still overlooking the rpm issue. The rpm is going to kill you, not so much the HP. Seriously, why pll the motor, go through all that trouble, when you can do it right and never worry about it again? What's gonna happen when 6 months or a year from now you want more power because you get bored with the new setup? You gonna pull it all apart and spend the time and the money twice? Just think about it for a minute that's all.

Regards,

 

[larryd]

i understand.. so what are the downfalls to using forged pistons and rods?

 

[NJGSX96]

NOSLaser, you are full of crap! Why do you post useless info that will kill his engine? Why! hahahahahahaahah... Just kidding man. had to do it.

I agree with NOSLaser 100%. Do it right the first time. When I built my motor, I did everything in one shot. Doing a complete engine build is not something you want to do on a yearly basis... not fun. get everything you want now, and save yourself the extra work. On the flip side, I know someone who put upgraded everything in her LS1 yet went against everyone and went with STOCK pistons. Needless to say, she catapulted her engine on the dyno when all was said and done. Do it right the first time.

One thing I will somewhat disagree with Aslan is the rod and piston choice. I say somewhat because I agree on doing it once the right way, and that aftermarket internals are a great way, but that going stock is the right way too. I have used, seen, and heard of, nothing but excellent results on just the stock rods and pistons... big rods and 95 pistons that is. I am running that and love it, my friends as well and nothing but good stories on cars running them. Am I saying not to go Eagle rods or Wiseco pistons or whatever? Not at all. For your application, the stock stuff will be great, although very close to the point where I'd say go aftermarket internals, with the nitrous. I don't think you can go wrong with either choice. The stock stuff is a good choice, but if you want added peice of mind, aftermarket may be the way to go for you.

I disagree with you on the need to rev to 8500. I think building a car to be able to handle the rev to 8500 is a great idea, just like building a car to handle big HP is a good idea knowing you got that peice of mind to help you sleep at night, but the need to actually do it is not there on a daily basis. Out of curiousity, what is the point of running the motor to 8500 on every shift? Knowing you can do it is one thing, but doing it regularly is another story, unless you like rebuilding engines.

 

[germain101]

imo, if money was the big issue here, i would at least go with forged pistons... nitrous creates a lot of detonation...have you ever seen what detonation looks like on the top of a piston, not pretty....forged pistons are much stronger and can handle that....as far as everything else, it's pretty strong to begin with....our cranks are forged from the factory as well as those 91 rods you plan on putting in there...i would just have the rods cleaned up and shotpeened, and have the entire rotating assembly balanced...just my $.02

 

[NosLaser]

I recommend the forged internals for two reasons. One, he mentioned revving high, and the cast piston just plain won't hold that kind of power at that rpm for any length of time. Number two, if he ever decides to go to higher HP levels, he'll need the good internals. Trust me, there comes a time when the stock stuff just isn't going to cut it anymore. My biggest gripe with DSM'ers is they don't know WHERE to spend the money. Larry will go out and spend thousands of dollars to have the BEST stereo in his car, but he'll cheap out on 7 or 800 dollars when it comes to making sure his motor will handle the power. Do you guys see where I am coming from? Do you see why I am so short tempered with people, and do you see how frustrating it is for me trying to get people to understand that viewpoint when I have explained it hundreds of times in the past? I'm really not an as$hole; ask anyone who has emailed me for advice regarding their setup. I always take the time to answer emails, no matter how big or small the question. But there comes a time when frustration gets the better of me, because it's hard taking time out to tell someone how to do something the right way, and then having them not listen, and then pay for it later on down the road.

Regards,

 

[larryd]

i didnt buy the top of the line stereo either.. my philosophy is to get whats right for your situation and sometimes forged internals arent right for yer situation... I mean ofcourse yes they are stronger but i ask once again, what are the downfalls or forged internals?

 

[gst_spyder]

Larry upgraded internals ARE right for your situation. Like we said before, rpm's (8500) KILL rods even at lower hp numbers... how many 350+hp "high revving" hondas do you see with stock rods? NONE and their motors rev high from the factory! To add to this you also want to run nitrous on the stock stuff , there is no way... I'll give a well tuned big28 car with nitrous (easily 400+whp) revving to the moon a 3/4 of a run at the track on stock internals before it will grenade their time, sweat, and money across the finish line.

Mario

 

[gst_spyder]

Though I have heard of drivability probs with JE pistons probably what you were talking about in post 4. I personally like the Ross pistons and Eagle rods.

Mario

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

I know someone with Weisco piston and Eagle Rods and they don't have the drivablitly issues like the JE's.

Later,

 

[ILOSE]

Originally posted by larryd
well the reason I didnt want to step up and buy pistons/rods is because something about having to let them warm up and they dont run right when the car is cold and for a daily driver you really should use stock.. any of this sound right??

No runnin stock internals is not the only way for a daily driver. So that was incorrect. The piston that has seen the most piston slap has been from JE. There are ways to correct that though but you sacrafice intial tolerance levels on start-up.
I would suggest ross pistons, because there is far less expansion, allowing your tolerances to stay more consistent. Another probelm people blame on the pistons is improperly installing them. People will get the block bored and then get the pistons. You should on the other hand, measure the bore and then buy the proper piston and then have the machine shop fit the bore to the piston. To your desired tolerances.
I know that most people know that but the ones that don't needed to know.

You ask what the differences are between stock and forged. Well again on a properly set-up motor there shouldn't be any difference. Start-up build oil pressure and go!

 

[germain101]

"People will get the block bored and then get the pistons. You should on the other hand, measure the bore and then buy the proper piston and then have the machine shop fit the bore to the piston."




i agree, a good machine shop usually won't bore a block without the pistons...

 

[IPT]

The piston slap comes down to how good the machine shop is. I know of people running forged setups on the street every day and they have no problems.

I Just went through the same thing. I had the big rods. but by the time I got 95' pistons and got them coated to make them a little bit better against detonation and then machined the rod to mate to the pistons there was only a few hundred dollars difference. I just dropped the cash and now I will have the piece of mind that the bottom end in my car will hold over 600WHP.

That I like.

 

[DSMotorsport]

I have Eagles and Wiseco in my car...from first startup there is absolutly no piston slap...A HUGE issue with setting the piston/wall clearance is :
Is the block honed with a torque plate? If it's not...then it's not even round when you torque down your main caps and head. There goes any attemp at controling piston/bore clearance out the window. My wall clearance was set .0035 wiseco spec. I don't belive you can risk setting the clearance that tight without torque plate honing. I woudn't trust a non-torque plated job with a set of $850 rods and pistons and all the time/labor to install and put it together.

Quality machine work is worth 10x the $ you pay for it. I had a 95 piston rebuilt engine that i put together myself.."on the cheap"....and the machinist balanced the pistons wrong and the motor came apart on pruvens dyno...like small end of a rod came through the pan, crank snapped, main caps broken...complete carnage....all because i went to the cheapest machinist.

Another point i would like to make is this: I tend to think now that iv been through the engine building quite a few times....I won't EVER build a 95 piston engine again. A complete rebuild with machinework is going to cost you well over $1400...with the gaskets, new pistons, machinign rods, bearings, seals, rings. I know lots of people have gone fast on stock motors. The issue is...if you are going to take the itme/effort to rebuild an engine...it's worth the extra few hundred dollars to not do it again. Aftermarket pistons/rods have gotten ALOt cheaper now with the coming of Eagle rods. I retail the ealge/wiseco combo for $835...I remember back in the day when you were faced with either..JE and Crowers @ $599/$799 or stock...that's why wveryone went stock...and noone had a torque plate..so piston/wall clearance was way loose and they slap.

those days are over....the stronger aftermarket internals are less expensive, and proper machining is possible. So really no more huge downfall to aftermarket internals.

Atleast that's how I see it.

 

[larryd]

thanks for all the info guys.. i will take all of this information into thought when making my choice..

 

[NJGSX96]

Originally posted by DSMotorsport
....I won't EVER build a 95 piston engine again. A complete rebuild with machinework is going to cost you well over $1400...with the gaskets, new pistons, machinign rods, bearings, seals, rings. I know lots of people have gone fast on stock motors. The issue is...if you are going to take the itme/effort to rebuild an engine...it's worth the extra few hundred dollars to not do it again.

yeah, um, thanks. Now you tell me. Hahahahah

 

[NosLaser]

...i didnt buy the top of the line stereo either.. my philosophy is to get whats right for your situation and sometimes forged internals arent right for yer situation... ...

Kill me. My analogy went totally over your head. You win. Don't buy forged internals. Doing things the right way is BAAAAD. Don't spend the money on the motor, go buy a cool $5,000 dollar body kit instead. When the motor explodes, I hope at that point you realize where you should have spent your money, and maybe you'll learn from experience. I at least hope you get to enjoy your car for a couple months before you have to rebuild it for the third time.

Good luck.

Regards,

 

[larryd]

Aslan..

where did I ever say I was going to spend the $$ on something else?? Infact where did I ever say I have the $$ to spend?? Do me a favor for now on, if you read my posts and you have nothing good to contribute then dont bother replying becuase all you are doing is making me out to be someone Im not in yer head..

 

[GRNDSM]

>I'm sure Grndsm or whatever his name is will chime in saying

How in hell did I get into this? A and why are you, of all people, putting words in my mouth?