SSAC FMIC performance?

[wishihadatalon]

Originally Posted by TSIMonsteR

These intercoolers are actually very efficient. The pressure drop is very minimal and the cool VERY well. I have seen them on numerous setups on the DYNO and the intake side barely even gets warm after several pulls. A few of the guys I am speaking of have AEM IAT logs, but I personally do not.

If you want to pay $$$$ for an FMIC, go ahead, but this intercooler was $250 and has seen some high HP and good ETs over the past few years.

I love it People present hard facts showing huge spikes in intake air temps, and the response you get is "If you want to pay $$$$ for an FMIC, go ahead, but this intercooler was $250 and has seen some high HP and good ETs over the past few years."

Nothing says DSMer like sacraficing looks, drivablity, and power, to save some money. I guess the best quote you can take from David Buschur is this "OT here for a second, shitty exhausts, shitty i/c's, shitty cams, shitty tunes all work at low HP levels."

Random FMIC information with a little turbo info mixed in..... - Buschur Forums

[wret]

Originally Posted by wishihadatalon

I love it People present hard facts showing huge spikes in intake air temps, and the response you get is "If you want to pay $$$$ for an FMIC, go ahead, but this intercooler was $250 and has seen some high HP and good ETs over the past few years."

Nothing says DSMer like sacraficing looks, drivablity, and power, to save some money. I guess the best quote you can take from David Buschur is this "OT here for a second, shitty exhausts, shitty i/c's, shitty cams, shitty tunes all work at low HP levels."

Not sure I undserstand your point. The topic is nice times with a fairly low cost intercooler. Which intercooler are you advocating?

[wishihadatalon]

Originally Posted by wret

Not sure I undserstand your point. The topic is nice times with a fairly low cost intercooler. Which intercooler are you advocating?

My point is that it is very typical of most DSMers to sacrafice the very performance that they are trying to get, to save some money.

And I am advocating any core that doesn't show a 40 degree temp increase in one gear pull . If I saw results like that, I sure as hell wouldn't be buying one.

[DGajre777]

Originally Posted by wishihadatalon

My point is that it is very typical of most DSMers to sacrafice (sacrifice) the very performance that they are trying to get, to save some money.

Well, incase you didn't know... DSMers are not rich. If we were, we'd have Ferraris and Lambos...

Originally Posted by wishihadatalon

And I am advocating any core that doesn't show a 40 degree temp increase in one gear pull . If I saw results like that, I sure as hell wouldn't be buying one.

This thead is about SSAC FMIC best ET - if you'd like to discuss how bad this FMIC is, please do us a favor and start a new thread. This is not a tech thread, this is a 'Racing & Motorsports > Drag Strip' thread.

I wouldn't be surprised if a company that makes FMICs bashes the SSAC since almost everyone with a DSM goes out and gets one. Think about it, if you made FMICs and sold only 20 in a year, you would want to bash the SSAC in an effort to get people to not buy it so your sales would go up.

So please post a link or a thread with the documented evidence on the SSAC FMIC that you are talking about in the new thread that you start. There is enough hear-say in our community. Thank you.

[wishihadatalon]

Originally Posted by DGajre777

Well, incase you didn't know... DSMers are not rich. If we were, we'd have Ferraris and Lambos...



This thead is about SSAC FMIC best ET - if you'd like to discuss how bad this FMIC is, please do us a favor and start a new thread. This is not a tech thread, this is a 'Racing & Motorsports > Drag Strip' thread.

I wouldn't be surprised if a company that makes FMICs bashes the SSAC since almost everyone with a DSM goes out and gets one. Think about it, if you made FMICs and sold only 20 in a year, you would want to bash the SSAC in an effort to get people to not buy it so your sales would go up.

So please post a link or a thread with the documented evidence on the SSAC FMIC that you are talking about in the new thread that you start. There is enough hear-say in our community. Thank you.

"I wouldn't be surprised if a company that makes FMICs bashes the SSAC since almost everyone with a DSM goes out and gets one. Think about it, if you made FMICs and sold only 20 in a year, you would want to bash the SSAC in an effort to get people to not buy it so your sales would go up. " And I wouldn't be surprised if I saw a bunch of people try to justify being cheap, by saying that companies that invest time and money into research, are making stuff up.

Please read the whole thread, including links to buschur forums which has a very specific thread on intercooler and how they performed on his dyno. I wouldn't consider a $400-$600 difference on a part to be the difference between a rich man and a poor man. I guess with the extra money I spent, I could be driving my dream veyron right now.

[DGajre777]

Originally Posted by wishihadatalon

Please read the whole thread, including links to buschur forums which has a very specific thread on intercooler and how they performed on his dyno. I wouldn't consider a $400-$600 difference on a part to be the difference between a rich man and a poor man. I guess with the extra money I spent, I could be driving my dream veyron right now.

Okay - lets make this a tech thread... mods please move this to Tech or lock it.

Like I said - post some evidence, not hear say. If you have a dyno log of that pull with a SSAC FMIC, go ahead and post it.

2 liter, BR GT35r header kit, EBAY (AMS STYLE) FMIC
Starting AIT 64.40 degrees
Ending AIT 122 degrees
Peak boost 42.1 psi
20 psi at 4563 rpm

Only one person on here runs the SSAC with a GT35 turbo (GreddyGST) and no one that I know on DSMTuners runs a GT35R with a SSAC intercooler at 42psi.

When any turbo makes boost, it creates heat, the FMIC's job is to cool the air charge. At 42.1 PSI, I doubt that the SSAC FMIC had the ability to cool the air being pushed through it with a GT35R and it was probably heatsoaked at that point, hence the temperate increase.

There is a reason why shops make RACE intercoolers. For an average person with a 16G or 50trim, the SSAC is more than enough.

If you want to compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges, go ahead but stop basing your information on a SSAC intercooler used on a GT35R at 42 psi. This is like comparing a T25 to a 50 trim and blaming the stock SMIC for being bad because it caused a temp increase on the 50trim. Mitsubishi used SMICs on stock 1Gs and 2Gs for years and when you heat soak an intercooler because your turbo is BIG, you upgrade the to a bigger intercooler. This doesn't make an intercooler crappy - please get your facts straight before you post.

[sYnOnYx]

very good response there D , ill have to agree with you.

[SBstar]

Then why don't we get some real numbers...
Everyone who has a kit comes on here and defends it to the death, but no one posts real life numbers. I'm talking about IAT's after the IC.

Lets talk about size differences
EBAY SSAC IC CORE (2G DSM)
28X10.5X3.5"

AMS race FMIC (EVO)
22”x12.4”x4

Buschur Racing "Race" FMIC (DSM or EVO)
24" x 13" x 4".

ETS FMIC (dsm)
26.5" x 10.5" x 3.5"
or
ETS FMIC (Evo)
25x11.5x3.5"

One of the two ETS cores put out these numbers...either way the size isn't too much different from the SSAC kit, with the same turbo.

2 liter
Turbo Trix T3, GT35r kit
ETS 3.5" FMIC

Starting AIT 105.8 degrees
Ending AIT 129.2 degrees
Peak boost 36.31 psi
20 psi at 5086 rpm

So I don't think the size/Race core argument works out all that well. The SSAC core is a rather large core by most standards, and it is far from a street sized setup.

I'd really like to see real world numbers on the SSAC kit. The best I could fine was a 40 degree increase compared to the ambient air temperature.

[DGajre777]

Originally Posted by SBstar

So I don't think the size/Race core argument works out all that well. The SSAC core is a rather large core by most standards, and it is far from a street sized setup.

Just because a core is bigger doesn't mean that it cools well. You can't throw a GT35 to a $300 SSAC and then complain that it heatsoaks and call it crap, which was my point. Just because it is bigger, doesn't make it better. AGP used to sell kits with 2-216 cores that looked exactly like the SSAC a few years ago for close to $1000. By 'race' core, I meant built better with better flow characteristics. Hell, if you can afford $800 for a core alone, get the DV/DT FMIC.

Originally Posted by SBstar

I'd really like to see real world numbers on the SSAC kit. The best I could fine was a 40 degree increase compared to the ambient air temperature.

Real world results...

***Mustang Dyno Results***
My Dyno results turned out really nice. 404whp @ 6517 and 343.4 Torque @ 5645 (Never knocked). Boosting 25psi pump gas. I do have a great setup to back it up so that helps and I'm still using the stock 7-bolt motor with 112xxx miles The stock motor is capable of a lot of power. I decided to stop at 400whp because I want to enjoy that for a bit, I could of done more but 400 is enough for now. In Dynojet is ~450whp

How to install a SS/Autochrome FMIC kit w/ Short route piping (Scroll all the way down).

When an intercooler heatsoaks, you see knock. The fact that GreddyGST ran 404WHP without knock should give you enough 'real world' data.

[SBstar]

Originally Posted by DGajre777

Just because a core is bigger doesn't mean that it cools well. You can't throw a GT35 to a $300 SSAC and then complain that it heatsoaks and call it crap, which was my point. Just because it is bigger, doesn't make it better. AGP used to sell kits with 2-216 cores that looked exactly like the SSAC a few years ago for close to $1000. By 'race' core, I meant built better with better flow characteristics. Hell, if you can afford $800 for a core alone, get the DV/DT FMIC.



Real world results...

***Mustang Dyno Results***
My Dyno results turned out really nice. 404whp @ 6517 and 343.4 Torque @ 5645 (Never knocked). Boosting 25psi pump gas. I do have a great setup to back it up so that helps and I'm still using the stock 7-bolt motor with 112xxx miles The stock motor is capable of a lot of power. I decided to stop at 400whp because I want to enjoy that for a bit, I could of done more but 400 is enough for now. In Dynojet is ~450whp

How to install a SS/Autochrome FMIC kit w/ Short route piping (Scroll all the way down).

When an intercooler heatsoaks, you see knock. The fact that GreddyGST ran 404WHP without knock should give you enough 'real world' data.

Thats all well and dandy but it still doesn't give me the answer I'm looking for. I'm looking for AIT's...I'd like to see you try a "good" core and see what kind of improvements the car makes...even at the same boost levels. I'm willing to bet money you'd see cooler AIT's. I'm not saying the SSAC is crap either, please dont take me wrong. I've never said that, what I do want is data that supports it. I could make 400 hp on an ebay turbo but that doesn't mean it's going to last. You can make 400hp on a SSAC fmic but that doesn't mean you won't be heatsoaking if you continued to run it like that. Like I said I just want real data, not just people saying I did such and such with it.

Also what turbo are you running and do you have a log/dyno sheet of that run?

[DGajre777]

Originally Posted by SBstar

Like I said I just want real data, not just people saying I did such and such with it. Also what turbo are you running and do you have a log/dyno sheet of that run?

Try sending a PM GREDDYGST, the info I posted is from his thread that I linked above.

[Black95TSIawd]

Is that "AMS style" core the same as the SSAC "AGP style" core?

[SBstar]

Originally Posted by Black95TSIawd

Is that "AMS style" core the same as the SSAC "AGP style" core?

Last I checked it's whatever FMIC SSAC makes for the Evo.



If you check out the AMS Evo FMIC you'll notice it's a copy.

Automoto Sports Copyright&copy AMS 2006

[DGajre777]

Originally Posted by Black95TSIawd

Is that "AMS style" core the same as the SSAC "AGP style" core?

The SSAC for the 2G DSM is a copy of the AGP style and the SSAC for the EVO is a copy of the AMS style.

[wishihadatalon]

I was going to hold my tongue until I saw that the "average" wiseman here (typical 50 trim, ssac front mount aka gods gift to aluminum heat exchange , and so on) decided to give me a negative reputation point. I could honestly give 2 shits less about a stupid rep point of any kind because the system is fairly stupid. But when someone tells me to "get your facts straight" before you post, but then offers only dyno numbers with no intake air temps to prove how well this core cools, I will find a reason to talk. So perhaps you should present some facts of your own like intake air temps and not dyno numbers. I used a reliable and reputable resource to show how well the core doesn't work, and you go as far as to call him a liar and that he is only mad because he doesn't sell as much. This truely shows your maturity level and how far you are willing to go to slander someone just to justify being a cheap ass.


"When an intercooler heatsoaks, you see knock. The fact that GreddyGST ran 404WHP without knock should give you enough 'real world' data." btw these are awesome FACTS. If only we were given equally accurate facts from our government, we would probably be even worse than we already are. Perhaps you could have also quoted these runs from Buschurs thread, though I suspect you are a little biased and need to justify buying crap.

Same ####ing boost level except the core is the original and not the junk rip off replica from ebay. This is hard data to prove just how crappy the chinese sweat shop b.s. is.
2 liter, AMS GT35r, AMS Race FMIC
Starting AIT 87.80 degrees
Ending AIT 93.20 degrees
Peak boost 41.12 psi
20 psi 4676
A whole 6 degrees of change.

Or this one, again same boost level and still a 35r
2 liter, BRHTA35r, Race FMIC
Starting AIT, 71.60
Ending AIT, 77.oo
Peak boost, 42.27 psi
20 psi at 4691 rpm
6 degrees of change.

So when you feel like you are on your high horse and you have almost proved me so wrong with awesome facts like so and so made this hp, perhaps you can go to someone who has experimented, engineered, and actually posted hard data (also willing to post aem logs from what I saw in that thread).

So to end this all up. If I could give you a negative rep point, I wouldn't. I could care less who listens to you, and how much they value your "facts" more so opinions because you have 5 amazing little stars under your name.

[kiggly]

The EBAY generic intercoolers have reasonable pressure drop, but cool very poorly.

The super-cheap part that was on my car at the conclusion of last season was the biggest EBAY core, 24x12x4 core size. I saw:

8.99 at 153mph at 35psi pass:
92F start of pass, about 20F above ambient
145F end of pass
~2.5psi drop from turbo outlet to intake plenum w/2.5" piping and stock 60mm TB, 2.3L @ 8500rpm

A friend's car with a similar-sized Garrett core hangs out around 5-10F above ambient and even at 44psi sees less than 10F temperature rise during a pass. We are using the same (GM) air temperature sensors. I'm switching over to one of the Garrett cores over the winter.

Yes, you can run fast on the EBAY stuff. You can also do a lot better with better stuff. You get what you pay for here.

Kevin

[2gGSX]

It seems DB opened up a bigger can of worms than maybe even he realized when he posted those numbers. Regardless of anyone's personal opinions on the tester, one thing that he said really rings true to me--

(OT here for a second, [bad] exhausts, shitty i/c's, [bad] cams, [bad] tunes all work at low HP levels.) The higher the HP levels go the more the [bad] parts show up and kill the combination.

[SBstar]

Thanks Kiggly...Now those are the numbers I want to see...It may not be referencing the SSAC kit itself (which I still want to see AIT's for) but it shows you real numbers that matter. How much hp do you think Kiggly was making on that core? Anyone will tell you it was a very high hp figure, but no one is disputing that you can make power on these cores. The fact is you can tune just about any combination of parts for no knock and the "max" that it will give you out of that setup. But what from what Kiggly has told us in his post, if he upgrades to a better IC, he'll be able to make a whole lot more power, on the same setup!

No one wants to bash anyone or their choice of products here, we just want to see an informed dsm community.

[No_Skillz]

When you are throwing around your opinions of what makes a bad intercooler, you should really define your criteria better. If these criteria is size : function, it's clear that these ebay FMIC's are inferior.

However, for those of us making "low power" (sub ~500s), which is probably 95%, we go to price : function. In these (low power) cases, and since everything works well on low power (to quote Buschur), function is about the same, but price is much lower. So it should be clear that these ebay FMICs are superior.

So then it should be safe to say that in 95% of cases, Ebay FMIC is better than a high priced race core, should it not?

What it comes down to is that if I were making thousand horsepower race cars like Buschur, I would not go to Ebay for my parts bin. However, since I'm only shooting for a better-than-average modded, fun, daily car, EBay IC's have shown themselves to have reasonable products at reasonable prices.

I think this is exactly the point that DG was trying to get across.
Same reason why I would not go and buy a thousand dollar Aeromotive external tank in line fuel system over a hundred dollar walboro in-tank fuel pump.

[Street_Killer]

Originally Posted by wishihadatalon

I was going to hold my tongue until I saw that the "average" wiseman here (typical 50 trim, ssac front mount aka gods gift to aluminum heat exchange , and so on) decided to give me a negative reputation point. I could honestly give 2 shits less about a stupid rep point of any kind because the system is fairly stupid. But when someone tells me to "get your facts straight" before you post, but then offers only dyno numbers with no intake air temps to prove how well this core cools, I will find a reason to talk. So perhaps you should present some facts of your own like intake air temps and not dyno numbers. I used a reliable and reputable resource to show how well the core doesn't work, and you go as far as to call him a liar and that he is only mad because he doesn't sell as much. This truely shows your maturity level and how far you are willing to go to slander someone just to justify being a cheap ass.


"When an intercooler heatsoaks, you see knock. The fact that GreddyGST ran 404WHP without knock should give you enough 'real world' data." btw these are awesome FACTS. If only we were given equally accurate facts from our government, we would probably be even worse than we already are. Perhaps you could have also quoted these runs from Buschurs thread, though I suspect you are a little biased and need to justify buying crap.

Same ####ing boost level except the core is the original and not the junk rip off replica from ebay. This is hard data to prove just how crappy the chinese sweat shop b.s. is.
2 liter, AMS GT35r, AMS Race FMIC
Starting AIT 87.80 degrees
Ending AIT 93.20 degrees
Peak boost 41.12 psi
20 psi 4676
A whole 6 degrees of change.

Or this one, again same boost level and still a 35r
2 liter, BRHTA35r, Race FMIC
Starting AIT, 71.60
Ending AIT, 77.oo
Peak boost, 42.27 psi
20 psi at 4691 rpm
6 degrees of change.

So when you feel like you are on your high horse and you have almost proved me so wrong with awesome facts like so and so made this hp, perhaps you can go to someone who has experimented, engineered, and actually posted hard data (also willing to post aem logs from what I saw in that thread).

So to end this all up. If I could give you a negative rep point, I wouldn't. I could care less who listens to you, and how much they value your "facts" more so opinions because you have 5 amazing little stars under your name.

Hate to break it to you dude, but 95% of dsmers dont want 600hp. Most will be more then fine with 400, and even more will be fine with 300. So when you want to go out and buy a 1200 dollar kit for 400hp let us know so we can laugh at you. The wiseman never said that the kits you are giving are not good, and not better. He was saying that the ssac is more then good enough for 95% of dsmers.

[90laserRSfwd]

fight nice

[SBstar]

So you want to make 400 horsepower. You could do it with an SSAC FMIC kit sure, but you could do it more easily, and more efficiently, with a good core. Why do people insist on going cheap with dsms instead of saving their money and buying quality? David Buschur is right when every year he says there aren't many dsmers who go "fast with class" anymore.

[Street_Killer]

No knock at 400hp is pretty efficient in my book, I dont know about you.

[wishihadatalon]

Originally Posted by Street_Killer

Hate to break it to you dude, but 95% of dsmers dont want 600hp. Most will be more then fine with 400, and even more will be fine with 300. So when you want to go out and buy a 1200 dollar kit for 400hp let us know so we can laugh at you. The wiseman never said that the kits you are giving are not good, and not better. He was saying that the ssac is more then good enough for 95% of dsmers.

Guess what I did buy a relatively expensive kit. You know what it did for me? Well it managed to keep my intake temps cool and cool off enough in between runs for me to win my class at the shootout. This was in 2006 when ambient air temps were ~95 degrees the whole day. With my highest boost spike ~32psi on a 16g (which pretty much = heat heat heat) I still only saw 115 degree intake temps. Looking at the logs in excel I can see 115 degrees for 2 cells which means that it did its job and then some to make sure that I didn't see absurd rises in intake temps. So if you would like to laugh then go right ahead. I won money, a plaque, and I have a lot of good memories from that day.

Also I do not offer a front mount of any kind nor would I ever. I just hate to see people buy shit for cars that were once nice, but have slowy earned a repuation for un-reliable and hacked. I wonder what % of dsmers fall in that catagory?

[JWoodley]

Hopefully I can contribute when I get dsmlink over Christmas. I've ran the SSAC kit for about 2400 miles so far.

[SBstar]

Originally Posted by Street_Killer

No knock at 400hp is pretty efficient in my book, I dont know about you.

I'd still like to know the setup, looking at his profile shows a 35r at a different hp level. But I personally guarantee he could make more hp, and maintain it longer (meaning continue driving the car at that level without cool downs) with a better core. Just my .02
The facts are these cores are not even close to as good as a quality core, that is the info we're trying to get across here. Can you get away with one on your vehicle? Sure you can, but you could do better if you saved your money and bought quality. Isn't the point of Tuners to educate and help the dsm community?

[LaN-]

Who really gives a shit about intake temps blah blah blah.

If your car is running an ebay intercooler and you reached the amount of power you want to make outta your DSM.........Your not knocking and not posing any real threat to your engine who cares.

The average DSM'er wants 300-400 WHP outta there DSM and for the average DSM'er an ebay core will work just fine.

"People buy what works within there budget."

Are you going to bitch at honda for making the civic because it doesn't perform as well as a Ferrari? No because it works for what people need.

Like i said people buy what they need to reach there goals and in the DSM world a ebay IC will get them there.

I've been selling 1g FMIC kits for almost a year now and i haven't had 1 performance related issue (i've sold over 100). In fact i've seen people making some damn good power. I myself made 350 WHP without an issue.

Now i know that the cores that i get are a better quality, but they still are ebay cores.

All n All you cannot stereotype "Ebay intercoolers" considering there are 10002340923480 different companies selling intercoolers online.

Come to think of it ETS sells on ebay.........so does that mean they suck?



sorry if i went on a rant and you can't understand everything, but i think you'll be able to get the overall idea.

[LaN-]

Originally Posted by SBstar

So you want to make 400 horsepower. You could do it with an SSAC FMIC kit sure, but you could do it more easily, and more efficiently, with a good core. Why do people insist on going cheap with dsms instead of saving their money and buying quality? David Buschur is right when every year he says there aren't many dsmers who go "fast with class" anymore.

Average cost of a DSM now a days is like ooo 2-4k. Which means the average person buying a dsm is 16-25 years old.

Average income for a 16-25 year old person - 20-30k.......if that

You've also gotta think about it this way.

Lets say i will make more power outta a more expensive FMIC compared to my ebay kit. What is the power difference? 20 - 30 HP (IF THAT)?

So i've lost 20-30hp because i went with a cheaper core, but i saved an extra 600 dollars. Could i not make 100hp more with that money?

Don't quote me on the numbers, but its the concept.

No there are not a lot of people that drive dsm's with "class" anymore, but what do you expect to drive a dsm with "class" requires a lot more money then the average person has.

Buschur is bias to all this ebay stuff because it cuts into his business.

Think about it, all the real "class" right now is in the EVO's but thats because an evo costs 20-30K which means if you buy an EVO you can afford to do it the right way.

[99gst_racer]

Originally Posted by Street_Killer

No knock at 400hp is pretty efficient in my book, I dont know about you.

Right, but horsepower levels don't speak directly for intercooler efficiency. I could make 400 WHP with a huge turbo, race gas, and a stock sidemount, but that doesn't mean it's an efficient 400 WHP.

Originally Posted by SBstar

Isn't the point of Tuners to educate and help the dsm community?

Yup, that's exactly why we're here.



Anybody have AIT data for the SSAC core?

[wishihadatalon]

Originally Posted by LaN-

Average cost of a DSM now a days is like ooo 2-4k. Which means the average person buying a dsm is 16-25 years old.

Average income for a 16-25 year old person - 20-30k.......if that

You've also gotta think about it this way.

Lets say i will make more power outta a more expensive FMIC compared to my ebay kit. What is the power difference? 20 - 30 HP (IF THAT)?

So i've lost 20-30hp because i went with a cheaper core, but i saved an extra 600 dollars. Could i not make 100hp more with that money?

Don't quote me on the numbers, but its the concept.

No there are not a lot of people that drive dsm's with "class" anymore, but what do you expect to drive a dsm with "class" requires a lot more money then the average person has.

Buschur is bias to all this ebay stuff because it cuts into his business.

Think about it, all the real "class" right now is in the EVO's but thats because an evo costs 20-30K which means if you buy an EVO you can afford to do it the right way.

What is so biased? He posted AMS core temps, even though it performed closely to his core. If he was biased he would have left that off because that could potentially cut into his business when someone wants a quality core.

Just a little fyi. You do not need money to be classy. You just have to have a good attitude and present yourself as a civil and reasonable person (who might potentially snap should someone piss him off bad enough).

As far as intake temps, they are important. If I see a core rise 60 degrees in one gear pull, I would find it safe to assume that those temps would keep rising. That is bad if you are doing more than single gear pulls.