Thinking of going to the dark side... Nitrous or Water?

[my98GST]

I need a little extra umph in my step. When the new motor comes back out I want to be able to sling what ever I want to at it.. I am also wanting to rev between 8500-9k rpms.

Mods will be as this.

7 bolt:
Eagle rods
2g Pistons
ARP hardware all around
BS' removed
Basic rebuild boring .020

1g Head
Jackson Auto Machine +1mm Nitride valves
Jackson Auto bronze valve guides
Jackson Auto valve seals
Crower springs, retainers, locks
2g Rockers
Revised lifters
BC 280 cams.

Bolt ons:
SSAC 28x10x3.5" fmic
3" turbo back
PTE SCM3231E
Aeromotive AFPR
FIC 850cc injectors
DSMlink
Shep Stage "3" tranny
ACT 2600 and Street lite fly
FP 4" intake
Greddy type-s
JMF SMIM

And I think that covers most of it.

Discussion: I'm wanting to be able to lower the intake temps. But I'm also wanting an extra little umph while doing it. I've seen many people pleased with water injection, and SEVERAL people pleased with nitrous.

I have read three threads on it but no one really gave any logical reasoning why which one would be better. I read that if you have one, one is going to chill the air to where the other one isn't going do anything else for the intake temp.

What would you guys perfer?

Also if I were to choose a nitrous setup, what would be more beneficial? A standard "fogger" kit that has the bung in the UICP or a direct port? Wet or dry?

 

[dsmfa9nutter]

Water setup (after initial parts purchase+install) is free, nitrous is fillup after fillup=$$.

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

I just finished my dual m3 coolingmist setup with 33% meth mix. All I've gotta say is this mod is just awesome! Huge difference that you can feel. So glad I decided to go with this upgrade.

 

[my98GST]

Alright besides the "freeness" of the water, what else makes it superior to nitrous?

 

[Rice Over Wheat]

I'm talking meth/water. Race gas-like effects 24/7 vs bottle, I'll take the race gas. And it won't blow up my engine either.

 

[90blacktsiawd]

I'd have to think that nitrous would give you more power per shot. But it is more expensive in the end.

WI helps you maximize your setups potential. Especially if your running pump gas. You'll be able to run more boost and timing without knock. It will lower your intake temps, raise the octance of your gas (pending your using some methanol or alky in the mix) and steam clean the inside of your motor for you.

Why does it have to be either or? Just run both

 

[my98GST]

So It would be alright to have both setups? Run one one day run the other the next kinda deal ?

 

[90blacktsiawd]

I dont see why you couldn't. But it wouldn't be one today and the other tomorrow. The water injection would be full time. Your going to have to tune accordingly for it so if you turned it off to run nitrous your going to have to adjust for that and the nitrous instead of just the nitrous.

Unless i'm missing something as to why they can't be run together.

 

[my98GST]

I just figured it might not be safe since its would be kind of mixing two different chemicals...

 

[90blacktsiawd]

If you were just running water i see no reason you couldnt run both. I would look into it further if your going to use meth or alky.

 

[my98GST]

alright lets get in to this. What is the difference between alchy, water, and meth inj.

 

[90blacktsiawd]

They all run through the same system. Water has very high heat dissapation properties so it cools the intake charge as well as steam clean the inside of the motor. Methanol has good heat dissapation properties as well as some obscenely high octane rating so it will coll the intake charge and up the octane level of the gas your using. Distilled alcohol is kinda in the middle. It has a higher than pump gas octane rating and almost as good as water in the heat dissapation dept. You can run both water and meth in the same tank. I'm not positive about running alky with anything else. Every person i've ever heard of has run alky by itself.

 

[my98GST]

Good info, thank ya.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

First off... You really shouldn't run a Dry Nitrous Kit on a Turbo car.

You can run both Nitrous & Water/Meth but there is no extra benefits to doing this.
There will just be more complication if anything... like up-keep, and tuning a engine to run all three systems (Turbo, n2o, water/meth) at once.

Water/meth injection has mainly one purpose, and that's to cool the intake air. The added atomizing of the water ( extra oxygen) helps too, but not alot.

Nitrous is very cold, so it will do the same thing as a water/meth kit, PLUS MORE ....In that way Nitrous is a double power adder for Turbo cars. Because the 1st thing n2o does is cool the hot Turbo air, And Then on top of that... it adds extra oxygen & Fuel for even more power.

Also most n20 kits are rated for naturally aspirated engines. So if the n20 kits says its a 50hp kit... that hp rating is usually for non turbo cars.... Watch out, cause like I said Nitrous is a double power adder for Turbo cars. A 50hp shot can easily turn into 80-90whp! A 75shot will be around 120+whp!

Going single Nozzle, or Direct Port Injection depends on 2 things.... How much Nitrous you want to spray, and how much money you have. If you want to spray 75hp or less; go with a single nozzle ...Going 75hp on a direct port system just isn't cost effective, and it won't give you more power. If you want to spray 100+hp then you can start to think about Direct Injection, but keep in mind the typical 100 shot is going to give 150-160whp on a Turbo car.... and that one hell of a violent hit! ...especially on our little cars


.....hope that helps!

 

[90blacktsiawd]

Water/meth injection has mainly one purpose, and that's to cool the intake air.

Your missing one very big purpose here. Methanol or alcohol will raise the octane of the gas your using. Hence more boost and timing like if you were running race gas but still only pay for 93 at the pump.

One other quick thought on running all three. I don't see how it would be any different tuning wise as just running boost and nitrous. Your going to have to tune for the water/meth to begin with as your base tune. When you decide to activate the nos you'll have to compensate for that too. How is that any different then changing your base tune for just boost and then adding juice?

 

[NewTurboTuner]

I didn't mention that water/meth will raise octane levels, because I don't know how much it will raise octane levels. (I try not to talk about stuff I don't know about, because I don't want to spread bad info)



90blacktsiawd

I don't see how it would be any different tuning wise as just running boost and nitrous. Your going to have to tune for the water/meth to begin with as your base tune.

A base tune is the starting point to which everything else is tuned upon.

If a person were to tell me that a water/meth kit is part of his/her base tune; then to me that would suggest that the water/meth kit is used 100% of the time.

For someone to run a Turbo engine with Water/Meth Injection, and Nitrous injection there are 3 stages of tuning one must go through.
1st stage (Base Tune) is to tune the Motor and Turbo only.
2nd stage is to tune the Water/Meth injection with the Turbo. After that's done....
3rd stage would be to tune the Nitrous injection, with the Turbo, and the water/meth injection, all operating at the same time.

With 3 different power adders, on 3 different stages, you will only be able to use the power adders in the order that you have them setup, because that is the order they are tuned to. In this case you would only be able to use the Nitrous when both the Turbo and the water/meth is activated, because the Nitrous would only be tuned for use with Turbo & Water/Meth.
(((Any way you set it up; You would not be able to use stage 1 and 3 without using stage 2, because stage 3 would be tuned for simultaneous use with stage1, and 2.))) hahah kind of a brain twister!!

Of course if any body wants to be a smart azz then there are ways around nearly anything .....you could have 2 nitrous kits... one that is tuned for turbo only, and one that is tuned for Turbo & Water/Meth, But then you'd have a Stage 4 system which is just silly.

Do you see how it just starts to get complicated??? ....And for no real reason either.

A motor is going to make X amount of HP no mater how many different power adders you add to it.

You can make 400hp with a Turbo,
Or you can make 400hp with a Turbo and Nitrous
Or you can make 400hp with a Turbo, and Water/Meth injection
Or you can make 400hp with a Turbo, Water/Meth, and 1,2,3 as many stages of nitrous as your heart desires..... Anyway you want to do it, you can get the same 400hp outcome with the only difference being that some ways are more complicated than others



Me..... I'm keeping it very simple, and making it real hard alll at the same time.
I'm Shooting for 500awhp with only 1 power adder .....A Turbo! (easy)
But with one Tune .....Pump Gas 93 (hard)

 

[slugsgomoo]

while it's true that you make 400hp those different ways, you're ignoring too many variables. On straight pump gas you'll need a much larger turbo at less boost, where with meth injection or nitrous you could use something smaller- same with race gas.

I think you'll find that most people who shoot nitrous at a car that's already "maxed" tend to make more power, even though their turbo is at it's limit. Go look at evil_eagle's dyno video with the pre & post nitrous runs on the 3575.

 

[aero_sallee]

Water/meth injection has mainly one purpose, and that's to cool the intake air. The added atomizing of the water ( extra oxygen) helps too, but not alot.

Nitrous is very cold, so it will do the same thing as a water/meth kit, PLUS MORE ....In that way Nitrous is a double power adder for Turbo cars. Because the 1st thing n2o does is cool the hot Turbo air, And Then on top of that... it adds extra oxygen & Fuel for even more power.

Water does not break down and provide oxygen for combustion. It simply vaporizes absorbing heat from the fuel/air charge to do so.
Methanol is also a fuel, allowing running past where your fuel system is out of flow as long as you inject enough methanol or water/meth mix.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Hey slugsgomoo I know there's more ways than one to skin a cat.
I already damn near write novels when I post, because I want people to understand me. If I was to write down every single variable there is... then people would be sleeping through my post instead of understanding them. (I'm still working on mixing the 2 together to create a perfect balance) ~And yeah you're right in saying that a turbo can be run to its max, and then you can add nitrous to get even more HP. In a full race application were parts are often rebuilt that might be OK; but for the rest of us everyday people we should know that over spinning a turbo is bad, and will ruin it

aero salle

Water does not break down and provide oxygen for combustion. It simply vaporizes absorbing heat from the fuel/air charge to do so.
Methanol is also a fuel, allowing running past where your fuel system is out of flow as long as you inject enough methanol or water/meth mix.

area salle: if you look up the definition of atomization you might see that it means to break down into atoms. Water is h2o witch means 1 part hydrogen, & 2 parts oxygen. The extra oxygen has to do something.... it dosent just take a relaxing ride through the cumbustion chamber, and come out smiling. I can not tell you how much it helps, but it does. (like I said on my 1st post, Probably "not alot".)


Atleast everybody is picky on DSMtuners ...heaven forbid there be just one smartass on here


p.s.
Evil_Eagle use to be my hero as a street car
....these days its becoming more of a full racer

 

[aero_sallee]

aero salle

area salle: if you look up the definition of atomization you might see that it means to break down into atoms. Water is h2o witch means 1 part hydrogen, & 2 parts oxygen. The extra oxygen has to do something.... it dosent just take a relaxing ride through the cumbustion chamber, and come out smiling. I can not tell you how much it helps, but it does. (like I said on my 1st post, Probably "not alot".)

Atomization has multiple uses.
From wikipedia: "Atomization is conversion of bulk liquid into a spray or mist (i.e. collection of drops), often by passing the liquid through a nozzle. Despite the name, it does not imply that the particles are reduced to atomic sizes."

From http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atomization: "at·om·ize Pronunciation (t-mz)
tr.v. at·om·ized, at·om·iz·ing, at·om·iz·es
1. To reduce to or separate into atoms.
2. To reduce to tiny particles or a fine spray.
3. To break into small fragments.
4. To subject to bombardment with atomic weapons."

In this context #2 applies and is the most common meaning. The heat in the combustion chamber does not break the covalent molecular bonds between the hydrogen and oxygen, nor is there a chemical reaction in there that breaks those bonds.

 

[aero_sallee]

Good for you salle
...you can copy and paste

Just pick any definition you want to suit your needs ....Call it #4 for all I care.

You're wasting your time on something that I say dosent matter, and you say dosent happen. The argument Is 100% pointless, and your post is 97% worthless. The one peice of input that you added besides trying to disclaim me; was that if you run meth you can "run past where your fuel system is out of flow as long as you inject enough methanol or water/meth mix" ...Uuuuhh? Hah yeah, that's a Real good idea Good advice there salle boy

When injecting alchohol, whether it be 50/50 or straight meth it is necessary to pull fuel to maintain a proper a/f ratio. Alchohol is a fuel after all. This allows running a smaller fuel system safely. An example is one guy here in town with a Dodge Spirit R/T. These cars have a 2.2 DOHC, this car in particular runs an HX40, a fairly small set of cams. A devilsown water/meth kit. 550cc injectors will not normally support the airflow an HX40 will flow at 25-26psi but he does it, and has for quite some time. On both this turbo, and a T04E 50 trim.

If water actually broke down into hydrogen and oxygen under the temperatures in the combustion chambers it would not work very well for putting out fires now would it?

 

[my98GST]

so n20 + water/meth injection together really isn't going to give me any extra benefit? I would need to just run one for max results?

 

[MrBoxx]

Aero_sallee is correct on the correct usage of the word "atomization." The water is not breaking down into its component elements upon injection; it is merely vaporizing into very small water droplets, creating more surface area to absorb heat. The same occurs when you spray water from a perfume bottle, the injector nozzle is basically the same. The only easy way I know of to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen is through electrolysis. And that's not happening inside the engine or the intake tract.

 

[thegchild04]

If water actually broke down into hydrogen and oxygen under the temperatures in the combustion chambers it would not work very well for putting out fires now would it?

Are you serious? Did you ever go to school? Are you familiar with thermo dynamics?

Water does not leave the combustion camber as vapor...

 

[NewTurboTuner]

my98gst
Yeah. Using Nitrous, and water/meth together isn't going to do anything extra for you.

You don't "need" to run just one to get max results. If you really wanted to, you can run both.... But it's going to be more of a hassle than a benefit.