Question on intercoolers and endtanks...

[GSX_RCR]

I was looking at an FMIC from IndyRaceCores. The inlet/outlets are positioned behind the endtanks.

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So that would mean the flow would have to make a 90 degree turn to flow across the core and another 90 degree to get out. Would that impede flow in any way? Wouldn't inlet/outlets positioned on the end of the endtanks flow better? Or does it not matter?

Any insights?

 

[BoostinAWD]

They do that because the charged air from the turbo makes a turn and goes towards the drivers side then turns and goes by the radiator. Then it directly connects to the intercooler.

Then on the outside of the intercooler it goes directly through the car right next to the radiator again but on the other side. Then the piping from there has a straight shot for the TB.

Thats why they position the endtanks like that. Shortest IC piping route possibe.

It also requires some cutting and relocation of the overflow bottle.

 

[GSX_RCR]

Yea, I understand that it was packaged for the shortest route...but does that mean that it's "good"? If the airflow has to make a sharp turn, then theoretically, it can bunch up at that corner and create some backpressure and turbulence...not much, but some. A mandrel bent 90 degree elbow that feeds into the end of the endtanks would seem better at turning the airflow into the intercooler, as opposed to cramming it into the endtanks and having it disperse through.

Just my thoughts...and I hear only good things about that FMIC, so maybe I'm just talking to myself.

 

[DCJ98GST]

You are correct.

The less bends the better.

I never liked the way that intercooler looks either. Those end tanks look like they would cause alot of turbulance. It is best to have smooth path of travel for the air, and to transition the end tanks to the pipe. If not, you will get more pressure drop. It looks like the air will slam against the end tank and then have to do a 180 to back track to the pipe.

I work with a mechanical engineer that sizes pipes and HVAC ducts. There are actual equations to calculate pressure drop if you know the flow and all the pipe dimensions. After looking at the K values for the bends and transitions and such, I realized that the sharp bends do alot of damage.

 

[GSX_RCR]

Originally posted by DCJ98GST
Those end tanks look like they would cause alot of turbulance. It is best to have smooth path of travel for the air, and to transition the end tanks to the pipe. If not, you will get more pressure drop. It looks like the air will slam against the end tank and then have to do a 180 to back track to the pipe.

Yea, that's what I was looking at. The airflow slams right into the endtank wall and can cause alot of turbulence due to the extreme change in direction.

 

[BoostinAWD]

Yea but your forgeting it is just air, and it is pressurized.

Would you really notice a difference, I highly doubt it.
Just the core itself will cause alot of turbulance. All that air being forced into the intercooler just to collide into the core. But its being forced in very rapidly and will find a way easily.

 

[DCJ98GST]

Originally posted by BoostinAWD
Yea but your forgeting it is just air, and it is pressurized.

Would you really notice a difference, I highly doubt it.
Just the core itself will cause alot of turbulance. All that air being forced into the intercooler just to collide into the core. But its being forced in very rapidly and will find a way easily.

I compeletely disagree.

First, the more pressurized the air the worse it gets.

Would you put a chambered muffler on your car? No, because the "pressurized" air slams into the walls of the chamber and slows down and causes pressure drop. This is the same principle. Yes, it "finds a way" but it does it at a pressure loss.

Lets say you are using a Big 28 flows about 550 cfm. Through a 2 1/4" intercoller pipe the air is traveling at a whoping 327 ft/sec (223mph)!!!!

Now you are telling me that if that fast air slams into the side of the intercoller it won't lose much energy?

 

[BoostinAWD]

"Just the core itself will cause alot of turbulance. All that air being forced into the intercooler just to collide into the core."

So HOW much more of a difference are those end-tanks going to make?

Not to mention the pipe is in the middle. So you have air coming from both directions, hence the endtanks being angled at the end, and as they meet there is an exit.

If your worried about those end-tanks don't buy an intercooler with that design and route your piping the long way.

 

[DCJ98GST]

Originally posted by BoostinAWD
"Just the core itself will cause alot of turbulance. All that air being forced into the intercooler just to collide into the core."

So HOW much more of a difference are those end-tanks going to make?

Not to mention the pipe is in the middle. So you have air coming from both directions, hence the endtanks being angled at the end, and as they meet there is an exit.

If your worried about those end-tanks don't buy an intercooler with that design and route your piping the long way.

Of course the core will cause pressure drop, but that is a neccessary evil. Bad end tank designs are not neccessary. The pressure drop is not a function of what is the worst case, it is a summation of all the "obstructions."

For example..

Say your turbo is pumping 500 cfm at 22 psi. The core itself may have a pressure drop of say 2psi. Each end tank may have a pressure drop of 1 psi and the pipes with all the bends have a drop of say 0.5 psi. You have a total drop of 4.5 psi. The pressure at your manifold will be 17.5 psi. If you had better designed tanks with a drop of say .25 psi each, you would pick up 1.5 psi at the manifold or your turbo would work at say 20.5 psi to acheive 17.5 psi at the manifold. How ever you want to look at it.

I think what you are saying is that the core itself has the most pressure drop therefore all the other "obstructions" don't matter.

This is wrong. They are additive.

 

[BoostinAWD]

I really dont see why the endtanks would cause alot of pressure drop.
And if you were to run the endtanks differently...
1. you would need a smaller intercooler to route the piping the same
2. route the piping differently which would defeat your whole purpose

If those end-tanks are so restrictive why are there so many intercoolers with a similar design.

 

[DCJ98GST]

This is a good read...

http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm

They talk about end tanks about 1/2 way down.

 

[BoostinAWD]

Good info, thanks man.

But I would still take the bigger intercooler with the shorter piping routes. Then a smaller intercooler with a tad less pressure drop.

 

[G50trim92]

The way the endtanks are on that IC would obviously create a presure drop making it less desireable, anyone can see that just by looking at it. The air from the turbo is supposed to be guided in the ic as smooth as possible. Unfortunatly on a ic that large you don't have much of a choice but to route it that way. I do agree that it's not a big deal, and you would probably never be able to tell the difference.

 

[KenTSIII]

John Sheperd runs 9s on an intercooler w/ the exact same core and endtank design (Buschur Race Core). I've heard this argument many times. A few advantages to this design are:
1: the air hits the wall & disperses & uses a greater amount of the core
2: super short pipe routing (any added pressure drop would be negated by the extra tubing bends needed to route the piping a different way)
3: the air is pressurized & alot of the fluid dynamics don't apply
4: it works!!!

But for those of you that are hell bent against this design... we now have an option where we weld a radiused (think 4" tubing cut long wise in 1/3s) inside of the endtank. Our new Track cores will have this standard... but it can be added to the street/race cores for $30.


P.S. That site that was posted was awesome... maybe a little biased.. but very informative!

 

[G50trim92]

You sure do keep a close eye on the intercooler threads eh
You know what Corky thinks of this kind of endtank design don't you? He has it under the "bad" section.
Glad to see you have the new option on your kits, that should keep all the design engineers on this forum happy

 

[GSX_RCR]

Originally posted by KenTSIII
But for those of you that are hell bent against this design... we now have an option where we weld a radiused (think 4" tubing cut long wise in 1/3s) inside of the endtank. Our new Track cores will have this standard... but it can be added to the street/race cores for $30.

Cool, we have the man himself! Thanx for clearing things up...

BTW, do you have a pic of that new modification to the IC's you were talking about?

 

[KenTSIII]

No.. I currently don't have any pics. Just imagine if the front of our FMIC was rounded... & you'll know what it'd look like inside. I'll get pics the next time we make one w/ this setup.

 

[G50trim92]

"John Sheperd runs 9s on an intercooler w/ the exact same core and endtank design"

Anyone have the March 2002 issue of Turbo magazine?
Shepard's endtanks actually come in at the sides, not the back.
Unless he switched setups recently.

 

[KenTSIII]

He's been running the Buschur Race Core for most of the season...