Questions about Evo III 16g and small 16g

[Verticaljump1]

First...

I drove my car 45mi yesterday and the turbo had no boost, i mean I barely had any power, no boost controller installed, and no boost gauge (yesterday was my first day owning the car officially), and my oil pressure gauge is rock bottom low, but my engine heat is fine. I inspect everythign today to see if it's boost leak or what, I'm not leaking too much oil (maybe a couple drops a day???), so I don't know what's up. I try to start the car, but it starts and eventually dies down after 15 seconds or so, I start it, it idles, I try to rev it, and the throttle isn't working right and the car starts making a clicking noise. I push the pedal down 5 times and the car only responds to 1 or 2 of the pushes. I have my mom start the car and I check the turbo inlet, the turbo has shaft play. It starts to spool at idle, then the inlet blade smacks the inlet housing and completely halts the spinning shaft, keep in mind i have the gm maft w/2.5" intercooler piping (if that even matters). Is my car doing this because the turbo is bad? Obviously the turbo sucks and that's why I'm not getting any boost, but can that also explain the poor throttle response and crappy idles? If it does....

Then I need a new turbo, along with new feed and return lines, new oil, etc. I'm going to try and buy injectors but Idk if I can afford it. I have about 1,500, and that's to get a new turbo w/ new feed/return lines, 3" turbo back exhaust, Apex'i S-AFC II (as a feedback tool, if you know a better one then tell me cuz I can tune iwth the MAF-T), and injectors. So I might have to leave one of those out. I would buy a used turbo, but the turbo I had on the car I had just bought like 4 days ago from a dude here, and it was shit (a 14b). IN case I can't get injectors, what can i run the small 16g at and what can I run the evo III 16g at w a maf-t, 450cc injectors, and walbro 255lph fuel pump? Thank you for any help you guys provide, this is my first dsm, hell, it's my first car period, I've had it for two days and i'm already having the fun of my life (sarcasm ).

 

[Verticaljump1]

Can anyone help or answer?

 

[doug]

The turbo is definitely bad and needs to be replaced. That's about as much as I can tell you-- sorry. What year is the car? The ticking could just be lifters. Any of the 16G flavors will be fine with the other mods you listed. Do the basic maintenance stuff-- replace spark plugs, wires, change oil (while doing the turbo), etc.-- but at this point if there's no one else around that's knowledgeable it may be best to just take it to a shop and have them do a once over.

 

[Verticaljump1]

I decided to buy the evo III 16 g. What boost can I run with it w/ 450cc's? The clicking noise isn't the engine, it's the inlet blade (or whatever you call it) on the turbo, everytime it stopped it would click. And should i get an s-afc II or a scan tool off of dsmparts.com

 

[doug]

Hard to say-- depends on if you have the AFC or not. You're likely to hit fuel cut without the AFC at anything above 13-14 PSI. Plus at that kind of boost, your 450s will be starting to max out on their duty cycle most likely. Since it looks like you have a 1G, I can't make a good recommendation over the AFC-- it's a tried and true solution for fuel management. Although, the 1G version of DSMLink is supposed to be out soon.

 

[dsmpride]

yea, dude, I agree with the once over. It sounds like the car might have a few problems. What is the year and mileage?

Also, look into a t-belt and tensioner, b/c we all know what the consequences are if the unspeakable happens.

As for the upgrades. For now, due to budget problems, go with the small 16g (it is a great turbo, I had one for about year on my 2gen and loved it), get the exhaust, and a boost controller of some sort. Skip the injectors if you can, you can run ok boost with the stockers (up to about 1 bar). The AFC is optional because you can tune with the MAF-T (NOTE: you may want to find some advice on this b/c the maf-t can be a little difficult to tune, especially with a blow-thru setup) and your "upgrades" for now are fairly mild.

Kent

EDITED-
Oh yea you'll need a fuel pump too. Or if you run low enough boost (like 10psi) you could get away wiht rewiring your stock one.

 

[Verticaljump1]

The car has 167,5XX miles on it and it's a 91 Eagle Talon TSI AWD. The car was running fine because it made it home, but the turbo didn't work for the whole drive pretty much (I had already gotten on the interstate before I noticed no power). New cams, timing belt, and head gasket (w/ machined head). I think the timing could be a little off i was going to fix that pretty soon here but I need a decent running turbo first. I think the engine is fine, it's just that the inlet blade on the turbo siezes up after a couple hundred rpms and doesn't put any air into the engine. The mods that the car has are:

Ported 2g manifold
Walbro 255LPH fuel pump
Balance Shaft Elimination
Centerforce Stage III Clutch (2500, ceramic plate)
2.5" upper intercooler piping w/ 2.5" throttle body elbow set for 3" Gm MAF blow thru
3" gm maf (obviously)
1g dsm translator (obviously)

The products I have but haven't installed are: Dual stage boost controller, boost gauge (haven't got enough vacum hose, but I'm doing it soon!), 3" gauge pod, and that's it. I'm going with the Evo III 16G because I can get the turbo and stainless steel feed lines for $620. Pressbent 3" exhaust will be about 350-400 (I know I should go mandrel but I can't afford it!), injectors around 200-300, and s-afc II will be about $250 (ebay ) So total that's $1570 max. What else should I get, or what should I substitute? If I get the injectors, the max boost I'll run on the E316G will be about 18 or 19 cuz I'm still on the stock sidemount, and that will be the 2nd stage boost level. I can almost assure that it's the turbo though, because the idle dies right after the turbine blade smacks the inlet housing. I can put a wait on the AFC if someone knows the right settings for the MAF-T for the E316G. I might even be able to save money on the exhaust by buying the muffler myself and getting it welded on custom piping (a welding instructor at my school can tig weld it, or mig whatever it's called ) and if he won't do it I'll do ghetto Oxy-acetyline (sp?) welding . We'll see, but I'll make it and this car will run quick!

P.S.: ANY help you guys provide would be great, I'm really thankful I have you guys on this board, or else the car would have 50 fist sized dents by now, thanks DSM'ers!

 

[pianoman]

i used to run a big 16g, with the mods you listed minus the maft but with a full 3inch turbo back, ported 02 and a set of 510's. i would run it in the 18-19psi range, but I could feel that the stock sidmount would get heat soaked. blasting through the gears, anything over 6400rpm and the car would feel as if it would fall flat on its face. So i would keep in mind that in the future your gonna have to get a front mount.

 

[BOBS90TURBO]

Hey there, one way to make sure youe engine is where it should be is to do a compression test, the testers are about $20 at autozone.

Also, If you plan on going w/a 16g, you may want to get a 2 1/2"inch exhaust, I started off with a 3"inch myself and had to get a 2 1/2" to get rid of boost creep(even with a heavy port job on my o2 housing etc... 2 1/2" is plenty for a Big 16g.

 

[doug]

2 1/2" is plenty for a Big 16g.

Agreed-- mandrel 2.5" anyway.

 

[Verticaljump1]

Compression is 145 across the board at 6,000ft above sea level. 2.5" turbo back sounds pretty good. Are you sure a pressbent exhaust will make a difference, because it doesn't have that many bends anyways, not to sound close minded or anything. We just don't have any mandrel benders around town, I'd have to drive up to Denver and check out my options. Thanks~Brandon.

 

[Syndicate13]

Why do you want an AFC? You already have the MAFT and as long as it's the new 2.01 version it has almost as much adjustability as the AFC. If you think the AFC will tell you anything about what your car is doing, well anything worth noting, you're wrong. Get a Palm and some logging software.

 

[dsmpride]

I agree with pianoman about the smic. That is going to restrick you hardcore with higher boost. And b/c of this forget the injectors for now. Buy those later when you get yourself a fmic and then raise your boost levels and have some fun. As for the exhaust, RNR is haveing a sale right now for turbo-backs for only $500. RNR make some good stuff, mandrel bends and everything.

Kent

 

[Verticaljump1]

It's version 1.03, so would i need an AFC or should I just go with the datalogger software? Injectors are thrown out the window . 14PSI with an evo III 16G is around how much crank or wheel horsepower?

 

[pianoman]

If you really want to, you can run a set of 510's if you can find them, there small enough that you really won't need an afc to run them, although since your using the maft I can't say how it would affect your car with bigger injectors since I've never ran a maft. Also you can pick them up for 100-150. Pressbent exhaust will work fine if you can't get mandrel. Your prolly in the 275-300ish hp range. I think all thats left on the list for mods would be a set of bump sticks and a front mount ic.

 

[Syndicate13]

Upgrade the MAFT version and get the datalogger. Datalogger cables can he had for 1G's for like 35 bucks. Free logging software is on the net. I would highly recommend a set of injectors if you are upgrading the tirbo, it made a world of difference in my car.

 

[dsmpride]

I think that 275 to 300 hp is very generous for only 14 psi. I have an Evo3 16g and every single supporting mod and 14 psi is not that impressive. Get some 550s later and raise the boost level to 19 to 20, then 300+ whp is a pretty decent estimate.

Kent

 

[pianoman]

thats why i said hp not whp. i could see 19-20psi for 300whp with an front mount.

 

[ShapeGSX]

I wouldn't even bother with 550s on an Evo III 16G. They are too small. Get 660s. Then get a chip burned to support them.

 

[pianoman]

right but if money was tight and injectors go for 300.00 getting the 510's for 100 bucks will allow him to turn up the boost, without spending alot of money.

 

[NewB2dsm]

No oil pressure could be the sending wire. Look on the oil filter housing for a wire that connects an actuator looking thing to some other stuff. You will be able to tell if the wire is there or not.

The turbo is shot and these guys are not really giving you good awnsers so ill help.

First off just get 3" exhuast, do not get 2.5" b/c you will just be upgrading later. They say this b/c "boost creep" which can be solved alot better than getting smaller exhuast. Get a 2g o2 housing and port the hell out of it and a 34mm flapper and you shouldnt have boost creep.

Now for the recomened boost, no one can say. You need to get a logger and figure it out yourself. But with stock injectors i wouldnt run above 15-16psi. with 550's on a stock sidemount i wouldnt go ab over 18. The stock sidemount will heat soak so fast it wont even be worth it. So just keep the boost low, save money for repairs or a fmic and then have fun. Do things right the first time, read and read some more. The awsners are out there.

 

[pianoman]

we already went over that in the above post. also he said he already made up his mind on the evo3 16g..................

 

[Verticaljump1]

OKay, good news and bad news. Good news is, I'm getting an Apex'i N1 downpipe/cat-back, so that solves problems for the exhaust. The car starts up pretty good now and the idle is okay (I think it just needs a warmup), but the turbo still doesn't kick in. We checked the shaft play again and it's pretty bad. The car leaks a significant amount of oil too, but I checked and I'm pretty sure that it's the return line (probably not clamped up enough). Now, will that datalogger cable on Ebay work, or is that crap? I'm not totally decided on the Evo III 16g cuz of the price, I mean the price isn't bad for such good performance, but I might just want a stocker for now. Where can I buy stainless steel oil lines? And will I need a new return line due to the leak? Thanks~Brandon.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Why do you think that the Evo III is so expensive?

It is definitely worth the upgrade.

Small 16G = 35lb/min
Evo III 16G = 42lb/min
20G = 44lb/min

It is closer to a 20G than it is to a small 16G. But it spools just about as fast as a small 16G. Plus the housing won't crack like a small 16G housing does (I went through 2 on my small 16G before upgrading). Everything is a plus with this turbo!

 

[pianoman]

Right and its only 50 bucks more for an evoIII then the small!! Sometimes the oil return pipe can break but usally its the gaskets, either at the oil pan or the turbo. Also you could check and see if the wastgate is connected. Sometimes the clip that holds the actuator arm on the wastegate door can become brittle and break off due to the heat the turbo produces. So your actuator arm, will come off the wastgate and it will always be open and no boost will build. Also you don't need stainless steel lines. You can use the tap off the head. I normally don't give stock turbos anything past 130,000 miles on the car.