Torque? WRC cars

[racer]

could u guys tell me how many lb of torque are = 1kg of torque? I think that 1kg = 10 lb but Im not sure. I was watching the WRC cars,most of the subarus and EVOs had like 300HP and 60+ kg of torque and I was wondering how many pounds of torque that is. If 1kg = 10 lb that is one hella torque right there, 600 lb of torque could that be?

 

[Bino]

OK, so for starters, there is no such thing as lb's of torque, or kg's of torque. There is ft-lb of torque and kg-m of torque. The conversion is 1:7.23, multiply kg-m by 7.23 to get ft-lb, which comes out to about 433 ft-lb of torque, very realistic.

 

[sweet97]

I always thought is was lb.-ft. of torque. So a car would have say "230 lb./ft." of torque. Mark

 

[thekellbeast]

Torque is measured by force across distance. It doesn't matter if it's measured in pounds, kilograms, feet, or meters. That's all a discussion of scale. Although I'm pretty sure the metric measurement is Newton x meters (N*m), not kilograms. Kilograms are mass, newtons are force. In the US system, slugs are mass, and pounds are weight.

Edit: I just kinda made it sound like all of those units were interchangeable (pounds, kilograms, feet, or meters). I meant to say: pounds versus newtons, and meters versus feet.

 

[1badtsi]

i heard the wrc cars are 600+hp, which is easily possible, thos things are fuggin fast

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

i heard the wrc cars are 600+hp, which is easily possible, thos things are fuggin fast

No, I THINK they have 34 mm restrictors, so they tend to have 270-300 hp and 450-500 ft/lbs.

 

[fat pat]

theyre limited at 300 bhp, and a 2 liter motor...tourque is as much as they can pull without going over 300

 

[racer]

no Actualy I think they are restricted only to HP witch in WRC case is 300HP max (clas A)
About the torque i belive there is no restrictions and most cars I've seen have about 66 kg of torque.
There used to be a clas B with was unlimited for HP and Torque but that was back in 1986-8,but then they cut it,cuz they say the cars were way too fast and dangerous.There were cars that had around 1000HP and could acselerate from 0-60 for less then 3 sec on any terain,like the AUDI 4x4 quatro some AlfaRomeos.

BTW how is that posible to make an engine that will have about 150 ft-lb of torque more than HP??cuz most of the cars we all drive here usually have more HP than Torque??
All of the DYNOs i have seen around shows like :500WHP and 380 lb of torque or 280WHP and 200 lb of torque, and than u see WRC cars have like 300hp and 450lb of torque?How is that posible?? How do they build that engine to have more Torq than HP???
Also what is the diference between those cars ,what is better more TQ or more HP????

 

[diambo4life]

Personally, I think the U.S. system sucks. I grew up with Metric. In the U.S. system, you always have to convert by using a weird factor like 21.568 or 3.333 or 17. That sucks. In Metric, it's just a simple number like 10, 100, 1000 etc most of the time. A good example is a simple conversion from inches to feet and cm to m, which is easier?

Oh well, back to the subject.

WRC cars are regulated to ~300HP. I am talking about the current WRC format with the Group A and rally spec cars. Some could have slightly less or slightly more depending with their tune but should be very close to 300HP. However (as already mentioned) they have alot of torque - close to the tune of 450lb-ft-->500lb-ft. (In metric, that would be either in Newton Meters or KgMs^2 times the conversion factor). Remember, Newtons = Mass (Kg) Acceleration (m/s^-2).

The restrictor plate has the biggest impact on detuning the WRC cars, otherwise the HP and torque difference wouldn't be as big. This is a step orchestrated stemming from the infamous Group B cars in the 80's where the cars were all out. They were not detuned whatsoever. If you are not 16 or 17 you may remember the days of the Peugeot 205 Ti16, the Lancia Integrale Delta and when Audi was still running their phenomenal Quattros. There were no Evolutions back then. These group B cars had almost 600BHP. A 600BHP rally car and a quick WRC rally was just insane if not dangerous. There have been exerpts where drivers were quoted saying that their cars were too fast they couldn't react quick enough to them. This was dangerous. All it took was some grissly accidents and the death of a WRC driver that led to the whole evalution or overhaul of the WRC program. It (the WRC popularity) actually simmered down alot until the beginning of the 90's right just when the EVO stepped into the picture.


In a WRC (unlike that crappy "race" motorsport called Nascar) rally, there is alot turning and manouevering (sp???). That's what makes it so great. You need alot of torque downlow to accelerate through corners. Peak HP is not very important. There are some rallies that have long straights though (don't get me wrong) but they are far and between. However, through their various engine management systems, they can often play with these settings from one WRC event to another to adjust the cars response to a particular WRC outing. They are even talking about enacting more rules so that HP discrepancies between teams can be reduced much futher and eventually, it will only depend on how well setup the car is all around (aerodynamics, suspension, the driver (obviously)... etc) without touching it's weight and/or engine output. Some people like the idea, others do not. Sorry for the long post. :laugh: :laugh:

 

[sweet97]

Motors with long strokes, sometimes nearly as lng as the bore will produce more torque and small intake runners with high velocity are more likely to make torque aso. The 2.6 liter Mitsu motors usedin the Starions and Conquests producemore torque than hp. They are low rpm motors, long stroke. Mark

 

[racer]

Yea,that is right, group B was crazy, Lancia Delta S4 could accelerate from 0 to 100 km/h in 2.3 seconds on a gravel road imagine what kinda driver does it take to drive this BEAST trough mountains and about the Peugeto,Nigel Mansell sampled a Peugeot 205 T16 and said it could out-accelerate his F1 car.That is crazy,how can u control this car over mountain roads . and lets not forget the 600hp Quatro S1.

OK,so let say I buy STI or EVO and while stock the car have 300hp and 280-300TQ.
So now I wana tune up the car by keeping the same HP but have like 150-200lb more TQ.
What should I do,what kind of engine build is needed for this.Can we do that to a N/A car or only turbo cars could be tuned like that?Im enjoy racing in the mountains ,I dont realy emjoy the strait line races, that is why im interesting about this stuf.It is so ####in fun and so much rush going trough corners and acselerate going up the hill with full power.

O and here are some pics os the WRC B group Lancia Delta and Peugeot 205 T16.

 

[racer]

And here are some pics of the Quatro

 

[sweet97]

Back whenIdrove Buick GS cars. 455c.i. motors, 350HP and 510lbs/f of torque. small intaKE AND EXHAUST RUNNERS HELP BUILDtorque as small intake runners help also. Cams are designed for torque, less overlap and othe fetures I cannot be correct on. Engine builders know how to doit. Mark

 

[kpt4321]

no Actualy I think they are restricted only to HP witch in WRC case is 300HP max (clas A)
About the torque i belive there is no restrictions and most cars I've seen have about 66 kg of torque.

There is not a "restriction on horsepower but not torque" as you put it.

All WRC cars are restricted to pull intake air through a 32mm restrictor on the turbocharger inlet. When you have an inlet restriction, you are only able to increase airlfow until the airspeed through the restrictor effectively reaches mach. At that point, the volumetric airflow will in essence be locked down.

The effect of this is a constant mass airflow, once a certain mass airflow point is reached. In rally cars, this is going to b somewhere around 30-35 lb/min of airflow maximum.

However, they have turbos that are designed to spool VERY quickly (since they do not need to flow a ton of airflow at higher engine speeds). This means that they can reach high airflow levels very quickly. Lots of airflow at a low engine speed makes for lots of torque.

Since torque is proportional to horsepower divided by engine speed, if the horsepower curfve is flat (which is is going to be close to) then the torque will simply be a derivative of engine speed.

There used to be a clas B with was unlimited for HP and Torque but that was back in 1986-8,but then they cut it,cuz they say the cars were way too fast and dangerous.There were cars that had around 1000HP and could acselerate from 0-60 for less then 3 sec on any terain,like the AUDI 4x4 quatro some AlfaRomeos.

Your typing makes my head hurt.

BTW how is that posible to make an engine that will have about 150 ft-lb of torque more than HP??cuz most of the cars we all drive here usually have more HP than Torque??

You only need one question mark after a question.

Yes, it's very possible. In fact, EVERY motor will make more horsepower than torque below 5252 rpm. Now, if the motor's peak horsepower occurs below 5252 rpm, then the peak torque will be greater than the peak horsepower, guaranteed. There is no exception to that rule.

If the car makes peak horsepower above 5252 rpm, then you may still make more peak torque, but the difference is going to be less. With a slower spooling and higher power setup, that's when you're going to see more power than torque.

High revving NA cars show this the most; something like an Integra Type-R uses engine speed to attain airflow, which creates power. However, the torque (airflow per rev) remains fairly constant through the powerband.

My DSM currently makes about 15 ft-lbs more peak torque than it makes peak power. At all points below about 4500 rpm, the car is making about 50 ft-lbs more torque than it is making horsepower.

All of the DYNOs i have seen around shows like :500WHP and 380 lb of torque or 280WHP and 200 lb of torque, and than u see WRC cars have like 300hp and 450lb of torque?How is that posible?? How do they build that engine to have more Torq than HP???
Also what is the diference between those cars ,what is better more TQ or more HP????

Read what I said above. Torque is a derivation of airflow per rev, and horsepower comes from raw airflow. Extreme conditions such as the inlet airflow restriction cause the power curves to do funky things.

 

[kpt4321]

Back whenIdrove Buick GS cars. 455c.i. motors, 350HP and 510lbs/f of torque. small intaKE AND EXHAUST RUNNERS HELP BUILDtorque as small intake runners help also. Cams are designed for torque, less overlap and othe fetures I cannot be correct on. Engine builders know how to doit.

In simpler terms, big engines like that wil tend to make more peak torque than peak power simply because they cannot sustain airflow at higher engine speeds. This can be due to tons of reasons, some of which you listed above. The basis of it simply is lack of airflow capability at higher engine speeds though.

 

[racer]

Ok, then let say now my 93 GS has 115 whp and 115 wtq. I have K&N filter with the stock intake pipe,4-2-1 headers 2.25' downpipe and 2.5' midle and tail pipe with TEST pipe and strait mufler with 2.5' inlet and 4' outlet.So is there anyting i could do to incrase torque?
Also is the car going to be faster if It have 100whp but 130wtq or 130whp and 100wtq will be faster?What is better to have more HP or more TQ.

 

[1badtsi]

that post belongs in the NEWB forum

 

[kpt4321]

Ok, then let say now my 93 GS has 115 whp and 115 wtq. I have K&N filter with the stock intake pipe,4-2-1 headers 2.25' downpipe and 2.5' midle and tail pipe with TEST pipe and strait mufler with 2.5' inlet and 4' outlet.So is there anyting i could do to incrase torque?

Anything that increases power increases torque, and anything that increases torque increases power. Horsepower is simply torque with the added factor of engine speed to represent work that can be done.

Add a turbo. That will add lots of torque and lots of power.

Also is the car going to be faster if It have 100whp but 130wtq or 130whp and 100wtq will be faster?What is better to have more HP or more TQ.

In terms of how fast the car will acclerate at full throttle with shifts at the optimum point, horsepower is the only thing worth worrying about it. A car with 130 hp and 100 ft-lbs will probably be faster in the quarter mile than a car with the opposite. However, peak numbers don't tell the whole story, things like power under the curve are also very important.

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

the 130hp/100tq car will trap higher and the 100hp/130tq will cross the line faster, both will be slow...
Andrew

 

[kpt4321]

the 130hp/100tq car will trap higher and the 100hp/130tq will cross the line faster, both will be slow...

You definately can't make statements like this based on peak poer numbers, and I would be willing to bet that you're wrong in the majority of cases anyway.

The car with more peak power will probably ET lower and trap faster.

 

[racer]

ok same cars 2 EVOs,both have 300hp but one of them has 300TQ the outher has 400TQ
they race 1/4 mile,witch car would win? (lets not count driver's skillz and body weight,lets make them even).

 

[sweet97]

Well we're doing some pretendng here, but hey it's friday and some of us are bored, me included. If the scenario you suggest were possible the one with 400lbs/ft. of torque.
Recently one of those TV shows for cars did a shootout of 6 classic musle cars of the 6's and early 70's. There was an LS6 Chevelle, 454c.i. and 450P. Well we all know how HP figures were altered in that era( The L-88 427 was aed at 430HP while the tripower at it's highest had 435HP) If you could go back in time check the box for the L-88!
Well I AM a Buick man from way back and they were torque motors. The '70 455 Stage 1 was rated at 360HP. The Buick won. IT produced 510lbs/ft. of torque at an amazing 2800 RPM. Torque is what gets the car moving. I is a rotational force. like Kyle said peak figures are only a glimpse of the facts. Holding close to that peak torque throughout the rpm range gives you a quick car. Dyno's cannot measure HP. They record torque and convert that to HP. There is nothing wrong with lots of torque especially with lots of HP to go with it. The guy who started a poston his 50 trim and both high torque and HP has a great setup as far as I am concerned. Guys just have that HP thing when that is part of the equation. Mark

 

[Squackdiddy]

dont forget the mis fire shit to spit out super hot gasses and super spool the turbo,

 

[thekellbeast]

Does anyone know what kind of compression ratios rally cars run? I know they sure as hell don't run pump gas, so they can get away with higher compression/boost, which can only help torque.

 

[DSMeclipse4G63]

You definately can't make statements like this based on peak poer numbers, and I would be willing to bet that you're wrong in the majority of cases anyway.

The car with more peak power will probably ET lower and trap faster.

I was going by the GM rule, that torque is useful under 45mph. I figured that 45mph is the majority of mph a 100-130hp car would trap at, so with that said the car with the most torque would get down the begining of the track faster and run out of steam. If Im wrong Im wrong I was just going on pure numbers, I really dont care....
Andrew