is the 2gb spoiler functional?

[definitiveno]

If not what are some spoilers that are? Not looking for the ebay park bench thingy either. i like the painted look.

 

[ShadowWulf]

In my opinion, no most spoilers are NOT functional unless youre going well over 120+mph. At least you have a GSX, with some power going to the rear.....

On a FWD i dont see spoilers having any use whatsoever except to look 133t

 

[97TSIAWD]

Actually I thought I once read an article that said the Talon 2gb spoiler was designed by an outside company for actual use, did something besides looking pretty. But I forget where I read that.

 

[fr33b1rth]

On a FWD i dont see spoilers having any use whatsoever except to look 133t

I thought that spoilers were there to create downforce. In that case, it doesn't matter what wheels drive your car. Your car needs downforce in the rear no matter what. Air going under the car will force the car's rear end up into the air, causeing instability. Right?

Stock cars use the rear wheels to drive, and they have front spoilers.....

 

[mysticfire6602]

there was something i read that proved the 1g wrap around wing actually worked

 

[Bostedquest]

I thought that spoilers were there to create downforce. In that case, it doesn't matter what wheels drive your car. Your car needs downforce in the rear no matter what. Air going under the car will force the car's rear end up into the air, causeing instability. Right?

Stock cars use the rear wheels to drive, and they have front spoilers.....

that is half right...

However...
Air going under the car lifts the front end. Always has, always will.
What you do to the car after that changes a few things.
Now if you have a smooth underside, and a vented rear panel that will help speed up the air under the car and turn it to vacuum. A VERY GOOD thing.

Now, if you can see any benifit of removing weight OFF the front wheels on a FWD car your insane. Plain and simple.
Now, Newton says each action and oppsite reation correct? so you LIFT the rear end with a wing, it forces the FRONT down. But that all depends on how willing you are to mount certan things, because too much up force will rip that wing right off the car. Not a good thing.

Stock cars and every other smooth road race car use wings and spoilers to create both a vacuum under the car and create downforce on ALL the wheels.

Just alittle fun fact Indy Cart/F-1 cars can actaully drive upside down at 90-100 MPH. The cars create so much down force. At 150 MPH they are creating some 2 times the weight of the car of downward force.

 

[Bostedquest]

there was something i read that proved the 1g wrap around wing actually worked

It actually helps reduce the drag more then anything, it helps pull air from under the car and create less of a "stale air" area behind the car.

 

[Livid]

You need to be careful when trying to BENEFIT from an aerodynamic spoiler. If positioned incorrectly or at the wrong height air can actually reflect off of your trunk and hit the underside of the spoiler creating an opposite result of what you would want. Theres very few companies that actually do wind-tunnel tests on their spoilers, so yes most spoilers are only for show.

 

[leet]

that is half right...

However...
Air going under the car lifts the front end. Always has, always will.
What you do to the car after that changes a few things.
Now if you have a smooth underside, and a vented rear panel that will help speed up the air under the car and turn it to vacuum. A VERY GOOD thing.

Now, if you can see any benifit of removing weight OFF the front wheels on a FWD car your insane. Plain and simple.
Now, Newton says each action and oppsite reation correct? so you LIFT the rear end with a wing, it forces the FRONT down. But that all depends on how willing you are to mount certan things, because too much up force will rip that wing right off the car. Not a good thing.

Stock cars and every other smooth road race car use wings and spoilers to create both a vacuum under the car and create downforce on ALL the wheels.

Just alittle fun fact Indy Cart/F-1 cars can actaully drive upside down at 90-100 MPH. The cars create so much down force. At 150 MPH they are creating some 2 times the weight of the car of downward force.

It will not create a vacuum, but it does lower the pressure of the air. (Err now that I think about it, anything below ambient pressure IS a vacuum ) To do that, however, you would have to design a venturi system that spills into a diffuser, to help straighten and smooth the air upon it's exit from underneath the vehicle (Bernoulli Effect). The lower the angle you can get on your diffuser, the better. I've experimented with this, but to get any noticeable benefit, drastic rear end work would have to be performed, not to mention that smoothing out the underside of a DSM is no easy task.

You can also use your exhaust gasses to increase the effect, but then your downforce will become RPM dependant, a practice which was used in F1 for a while, but dropped for safer downforce methods. McLaren may still use this style ofsetup, but I'm not so sure. Most have switched to the Ferrari 'Periscope' style exhausts, which exit on the upperside of the sidepods.

On real race cars, the wings are mounted on the actual frame (as stated above ). Not the trunk lid. You need that force going to the chassis.

I have to go start up my power plant. I'll edit/add more crap/info later.

Keep the knowledge coming guys.

 

[Attack Eagle]

Actually I thought I once read an article that said the Talon 2gb spoiler was designed by an outside company for actual use, did something besides looking pretty. But I forget where I read that.

I can vouch for there being a low pressure area on top of a 2gb midwing.

I have seen "mist/fog" contrails on the rear edge at extremely high ridiculously stupid should never be done on public streets speeds (like 5th near redline ) in extremely cool high humidity condition, like right when it is at the dew point. When I stopped there was dew on the top of the wing but no where else on the car.

Most manufacturer wings are to reduce lift and drag... not create downforce.

 

[FireyIce01]

It will not create a vacuum, but it does lower the pressure of the air. (Err now that I think about it, anything below ambient pressure IS a vacuum ) To do that, however, you would have to design a venturi system that spills into a diffuser, to help straighten and smooth the air upon it's exit from underneath the vehicle (Bernoulli Effect). The lower the angle you can get on your diffuser, the better. I've experimented with this, but to get any noticeable benefit, drastic rear end work would have to be performed, not to mention that smoothing out the underside of a DSM is no easy task.

You can also use your exhaust gasses to increase the effect, but then your downforce will become RPM dependant, a practice which was used in F1 for a while, but dropped for safer downforce methods. McLaren may still use this style ofsetup, but I'm not so sure. Most have switched to the Ferrari 'Periscope' style exhausts, which exit on the upperside of the sidepods.

On real race cars, the wings are mounted on the actual frame (as stated above ). Not the trunk lid. You need that force going to the chassis.

I have to go start up my power plant. I'll edit/add more crap/info later.

Keep the knowledge coming guys.

Look up F1 Racing and Ground Effect... the entrance at the front of the car was made small to let minimal air in and the side skirts kept air from coming in the sides of the car, and the rear end upened up wider, so the air that was entering under the front of the car would have to increase it's velocity to fill the area at the rear of the car, lowering the pressure, and creating massive amounts of downforce. Most factory spoilers aren't tall enough to actually have much effect on the car, but the 2GB turbo spoiler (I dont' know about the non turbo spoiler) is tall enough that it actually catches the air as it comes over the top of the car and creates some downforce... it's not substantial, but it's enough to prevent the car from lifting at speed... mainly aerodynamic though...

Also remember... too much downforce on the back of your car will indeed cause lifting on the front... as far as generating lift in the rear, there is NO time this is a good idea, unless you're planning on flying your car.

 

[leet]

Look up F1 Racing and Ground Effect... the entrance at the front of the car was made small to let minimal air in and the side skirts kept air from coming in the sides of the car, and the rear end upened up wider, so the air that was entering under the front of the car would have to increase it's velocity to fill the area at the rear of the car, lowering the pressure, and creating massive amounts of downforce. Most factory spoilers aren't tall enough to actually have much effect on the car, but the 2GB turbo spoiler (I dont' know about the non turbo spoiler) is tall enough that it actually catches the air as it comes over the top of the car and creates some downforce... it's not substantial, but it's enough to prevent the car from lifting at speed... mainly aerodynamic though...

Also remember... too much downforce on the back of your car will indeed cause lifting on the front... as far as generating lift in the rear, there is NO time this is a good idea, unless you're planning on flying your car.

I've done a lot of reading on ground effect. It's just like a wing, using pressure differentials to push the car down. They both work off of Bernoulli's principle/effect/theory/whatever you want to call it.

I also agree on keeping your aerodynamics balanced. The simplest way I've found to increase front end downforce is to create an air dam for the front end. I use cheap lawn edging material, it's durable and easy to replace

 

[polarmoment]

Just alittle fun fact Indy Cart/F-1 cars can actaully drive upside down at 90-100 MPH. The cars create so much down force. At 150 MPH they are creating some 2 times the weight of the car of downward force.

theoretically, yes. however, i think if you were to try this in real life, you'd find that inverting the car would instantly starve the oil pumps, causing the engine to seize and it to fall off the ceiling soon after, resulting in some very gruesome ESPN replays.

another fun fact- the toyota eagle MKIII GTP car (circa 1993) at 200mph generated something like 10,000lbs of aerodynamic download. similar downforce levels were achieved by mid 80's F1 cars when they were allowed full venturis. they had to use springs in the 1500lb/in spring rate range to keep the car from bottoming at high speed. drivers complained of severe back problems.

i think most people are forgetting that auto manufacturers don't add spoilers to generate downforce, they add them to counteract lift. a perfect example of this is the audi TT/VW beetle. some interesting info posted about the aerodynamics showed that at 120mph (routinely achieved on the autobahn), the cars made ~750lbs of aerodynamic lift, 300 at the front and 450 at the rear. audi actually recalled all the TT's early on to add small spoilers to the back of the cars to counteract this after a few high speed crashes on the AB where drivers lost control through high speed corners.

as for the "making downforce on the opposite end from the drive wheels" notion, i'll say what i've said before- it's less about downforce and more about high speed stability. look at the aerodynamics of a touring car and they more closely resemble those of a radio controlled car than a formula one or group C car. they're completly different animals, and as such are difficult to compare.

 

[FireyIce01]

theoretically, yes. however, i think if you were to try this in real life, you'd find that inverting the car would instantly starve the oil pumps, causing the engine to seize and it to fall off the ceiling soon after, resulting in some very gruesome ESPN replays.

I agree with everything else you said, but am unsure about this... most race cars have a dry sump oiling system that doesn't use an oil pan and pickup, instead the oil is stored in an external oil tank and pumped into the motor... so even upside down I think that these would keep the motor lubricated...

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Yeah, they have an oil system set-up to where the engine basically can not be starved of oil. Think how fast they are going through those corners? They have pumps to make sure the engine is getting the oil it needs at high gs.

 

[polarmoment]

dry sump oil systems still rely on gravity to drain it down to the bottom of the crankcase where the pumps are located. from there, scavenge pumps send it to a reservoir.

our school designed and manufactured our own dry sump oil system for our formula SAE cars, including the pumps. the reason the pumps aren't starved for oil at high g loading is because there are multiple pumps set up to pick up the oil from each area it would slosh to.

those areas do not include where it would slosh to if it were upside down. running an F1 car upside down would destroy the engine.

 

[leet]

I agree with everything else you said, but am unsure about this... most race cars have a dry sump oiling system that doesn't use an oil pan and pickup, instead the oil is stored in an external oil tank and pumped into the motor... so even upside down I think that these would keep the motor lubricated...

As Polarmoment stated, the pickups are still in the bottom of the crankcase. Flipping it over will starve the system.

 

[SGTalon]

Downforce good , lift bad!