Let me know what you think...

[LD25Delta9]

Hey guys, you all know me fairly well as having half-cocked, hair-brained ideas and I might have another one. I'm dropping a small bit of money and would like to know if I should spend the extra on something else. I was once told in a local forum to see what I can get a stock block to do before I go trying to blow the doors off my car. Kind of crawl before you can walk. Here's what I'm adding to my list, ALL ON A STOCK BLOCK: 550 PTE injectors, MS2 with Wideband, STM Fuel Tank to Rail Kit, STM Return Kit, OBX(flame away)Fuel Rail, New eBay IC Pipe Kit w/red couplers to get rid of some of the funny multi-colored action going on under my hood, and an AMM Intake Mani that I'll be having my friend port at his machine shop for free...sorry Mike. Along with that port work I'll be having the PS/AC part of my UDP ground and the whole unit balanced. I'm not getting cams cause I'm waiting for the winter to buy some drag grind's for my head build. I'm not trying to play with my timing yet, either, so no cam gears. Slow and steady wins the race, right?

HERE'S THE CRAZY IDEA: I have the money.....should I look into meth to get more from my stock block? I've already researched the HECK out of which system to buy and it sounds like it might be a good idea. I know that IF it MIGHT be feasible, I'll need bigger injectors to run more boost. If I decide not to....for now....I'll stick with the 550's and tune my system for 10lbs DD till NEXT season when the REAL magic hapens.

If no one has ever done this, I'll be happy to be the guinea pig and post all the goodies... I just need advice from those more knowledgable in the subject. I understand the principles and how the whole system works, but I'm just not sure if I'm going to acheive the hoped for results. Anyone and everyone with any expierence in the subject, please chime in. Especially Paul with any knowledge of whether or not the meth kit in question can be used in conjunction with MS.

Here's a link to the meth kit and all it's information. http://alkycontrol.com/They make custom kits using all of the same components, they just try to give car specific resevoirs and more convenient fittings with the kits. They claim to support 2G DSM, but it only pops up with the specs for the EVO8 Kit and no pics. I've read lots of reviews on this particular company and haven't read a complaint yet. The main reason I like this kit is the progressive controller and for the possible performance gains, $575 dollars is well worth getting a stock block Dyno record for the little guys! ANYHOO....Let me know what you guys think. Thanks for your time!

 

[turbo90gsx]

The biggest reason for a water or methanol/alcohol injection is for knock suppressant. Pre-ignition detonation WILL destroy your engine. You will gain very little in spraying a water mixture in your engine. With this set up you would be able you run a higher boost level thus producing more power. You are going to need larger injectors most likely if you want everything out of your setup, what injectors I can't tell you, you'll have to calculate fuel consumption per/pressure and VE.

Be very careful of your AFR's too. Spraying a water mist (or alcohol) will definitely change your readings and can cause EGT's to change very rapidly. Your Volumetric Efficacy will jump too. Compressor maps change where its sprayed and all kinds of things. Just hope your tuner knows when all this happens.

I've seen people blow up engines forgetting to turn on their injection systems or running them dry, and or not compensating correctly. Just remember a lot changes from an engine management stand point. Defiantly do some more research, not just on 420a cars, everything.

 

[bullettdsm]

OBX(flame away)Fuel Rail, !

First off, let me say that you are a retarded moron who knows nothing about anything and you sleep with your OBX fuel rail for the comfort and excitement it gives you .

Whew, got that out of the way

Alright, seriously, let's define stock block as meaning, stock bottom end, correct?

Meth is used (as stated very well by turbo90) for knock suppression. Basically cooler combustion chamber temps. We'll sit on that info/definition.

Weak links in the bottom end;

Stock rods (more importantly stock rod BOLTS); these are generally classified as holding up to 250whp (my position is closer to 300whp based on a few things/information/experiences that I have looked through. NOT based on my own attempts at it yet. But my presumptive position).

Pistons; ringlands and composition of stock material (this threshold is a bit more of a gray area. Those that have broken ringlands and burnt sides or holes in pistons may have had tuning issues - biggest culprit to kill an engine- so it is really hard to say. But suffice it to say that they are a point to be dealt with).

IMO, those are the two basic mechanical thresholds that you will have to worry about. MLS headgasket will do fine. Stock head bolts will do fine (again up to and past the 250whp to 300whp threshold).

So let's be conservative and say in the 250whp range we could put a stock bottom end. Sure I'll go with that. Let's also say that maybe we can bring her up closer to 300whp range. Ok, now we're pushing the limits of the stock rod bolts (and some would say rods but I'm not in that camp. Either way it is the limit of the rod as a whole. You also must consider your power range in that. If you have to spin her higher to get into your power range, you are putting more stress on the rod).

Ok, there's some food for thought. Pistons now. I can only go from experiences of others on the stockers. The problems that they have (as we stated earlier) is people will break ringlands and burn pistons as they put in higher cylinder pressures. Here we have to know whether or not it is the heat of the higher cylinder pressures with the fuel used that is generating the breakage, or the tune itself (detonation and lean conditions rattling ringlands and burning through pistons). Again, I cannot honestly say because I used forged in all my builds. But I would imagine it is probably a little of both.

So there's a little more food for thought. Now let's look at one more interesting thing; knock. In all my builds I was not knock limited until I was putting 29lbs on a bw366 (with JE's of course). What do I mean by "knock limited"? Basically the knock did not limit my power. I would push the set-up to a certain power point and as we leaned out conditions or made slightly more agressive timing changes, I would start to lose power before I got to knock. So basically, it wasn't the knock limiting me in the power, it was the set-up and optimum tune itself (this is so important to understand. Many out there will actual tune to knock. Very bad idea that will not necessarilly gain you a thing and it certainly will puts you in danger of possibly blowing your shit up!).

Now here's where we fall back to the original idea about meth. Meth is going to allow you to cool down the cylinder temps. Here, I'll save some typing (thanks turbo90);

The biggest reason for a water or methanol/alcohol injection is for knock suppressant. Pre-ignition detonation WILL destroy your engine. You will gain very little in spraying a water mixture in your engine. With this set up you would be able you run a higher boost level thus producing more power. You are going to need larger injectors most likely if you want everything out of your setup, what injectors I can't tell you, you'll have to calculate fuel consumption per/pressure and VE.

Be very careful of your AFR's too. Spraying a water mist (or alcohol) will definitely change your readings and can cause EGT's to change very rapidly. Your Volumetric Efficacy will jump too. Compressor maps change where its sprayed and all kinds of things. Just hope your tuner knows when all this happens.

Ok, now ANOTHER thing (look at this goddamn essay, ) to note is that I did all my pulls on 103 to 116 octane. But again still not knock limited by plenty. I actually did over 400whp on 103 octane (my fault). No knock. So then you ask yourself, why go meth? Why not just go high octane (110, 112,116)?

So where does that leave you? With a whole lot of information for you to make your own conclusions about, .

I'm all about doing something different (that's where I get my challenge) but I also understand the possible ramifications of being wrong. Ramifications here? Maybe a little egg on the face (yeah who the hell cares ), maybe a whole lot of time with nothing to show for it, maybe a burnt piston, maybe a thrown rod, maybe a hole in your block, maybe a hole in the head etc. etc.

If you can put up with these things and you really want to test the limits of the stock bottom end, then by all means go for it. But I'm not that sure that using meth would be the best way to test it (for the previous information given).

And just a note on the intake; one of the reasons we get Mike's intake is because of his ability/experience/ knowledge of the airflow characteristics of the 420a engine. It's not just about his ability to do the baby's butt finish (I absolutely understand that you want to save money or you want to do it yourself. I did all my head port work myself. I just wanted to put that out there, not to try to sway your mind any, but just to point out the reasoning of having him do it).

MB

 

[Colt4G63 also]

I'm cosidering meth because 93 octane is a lot cheaper and easier to get around here, and I think a gallon or two would go a long way if I only spray above say, 17-18 psi. I drive my car almost exclusively in the summer, and I drive it like a nutcase. There's no way I want to have to hunt down C16 on a random day at X:XX o-clock in the morning/evening. I too am interested in a progressive system with warning indicators that can alert you of low flow, low reservoir, or exessive flow. Like this Coolingmist CMGS controller: Coolingmist Water Injection, alcohol injection and Methanol Injection systems

 

[LD25Delta9]

MB:
My sentiments EXACTLY. I know how the system works and it all depends on what starts to fail and whether or not the meth will help a damn thing. Colt makes a good point as far as it's ALOT easier to go down to sunoco and get some 94 octane and spray some meth instead of trying to hunt down some race fuel... I know about all of the changes it will do from the tuning aspect and I'm not too worried about that. Oh and I forgot to mention. My block is not COMPLETELY stock. It has ARP Head Bolts and MLS Head gasket. Everything else is bone stock as far as pistons and rods and rod bolts.

I'm not too worried about the damage that could possibly be caused, I've got my spare block being machined right now, and I've got a spare car. I DO want to be different cause that's just me. I want to push the limits and if I can achieve my desired results, then I'll be happy. If not, oh well. Not THAT big of a deal. I'm only down a stock block and hopefully no other componentry in the process. Plus ALOT of learning will happen. I'm ALWAYS in the pursuit for knowledge.
Thanks again in advanced for your time.

 

[96TurboGS]

I'm not sure if you read the megsquirt forum over on neons.org and msextra.com but there is a lot of good info as far as knock and discussions on water/meth. There is one thread where a guy was running cooling mist with ms3 on a stock block and made 312whp. I think his richness kept him from blowing There is always a chance for your engine to knock depending on the size of the compressor trim used, fuel timing, air/fuel ratio, intake temps and over aggressive ignition map. Our engine isn't any different from any other engine, it will knock under the right conditions but they do, however, handle knock very well. Knock comes in a variation of pings about 10-30milliseconds or more wide and too much of it can damage your motor. It's always good to monitor EGT's; as we all know heat and stress is what kills stock internals. I think the option Colt4G63 mentioned is a great idea for someone who has a pump gas street car as their chances for knock are a lot higher due to a wide range of variables. Cooling mist is a great option; I plan on going this route once MS3 gets on its feet as it will have many features where you can create a custom tune around meth injection.<---- may be something to look into if you want to save some money. MS3 will control these valves with pulse width modulation. Also look into sequential injection; many have reported less detonation going this route.....i know i have.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that our stock knock sensors can be monitored by a circuit that can condition and read AC voltage...the amount of voltage above the noise floor will indicate knock along with several other methods. (easy way to do this is with a opamp and several miscellaneous parts.)

 

[LD25Delta9]

Thanks for info man. There's alot of useful info pertaining to my questions on Neons. Some of this stuff goes over my head, I'll admit, but I'm pretty confident in my abilities and knowledge. Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread. It was most helpful.

I just started Engine principles and design along with engine performance 2 for this semester and WOW did taking performance 1 open my eyes up to the real world of engine capabilities in real world applications. I can't wait to finsih out my schooling! I knew that adding the minor bolt ons here and there would only net you 3-8 HP for each one but I now understand WHY. Man, the 420a was definitely NOT designed with outright performance in mind, but I like it just fine. Thank you to the few who have contributed to my progress and personal success, whether you think you have or not.
I'm going to take this time to bow out of Tuners for a short respite. I think it's time to focus on the builds I have ahead of me and aquiring of the knowledge required to make my dream a reality. I'll still be on to answer any questions I can for anyone who decides to PM me about minor turbo setup or advice, but I think I'm done posting for a while. Call it feeling down and out...I've earned ALOT of criticism along the way but I'm going to use that criticism as fuel for my fire and come back the best way I know how...by being right. Nihil Sine Magno Labore! (look it up it's Latin)
DEUCES!

 

[dsmking101]

LD25Delta9 ---you got some good plans bro keep it up i hope everything turns out good for you keep me posted if you decide to go with meth injection... i would like to see how that turns out good luck bro