Turbo Kit

[abaddon_baliel]

So I've searched around a bit and looked at dif. turbo kits, and noticed they're all pretty much the same. So why not buy a cheap one?

MITSUBISHI ECLIPSE 95-99 JDM SPORTS 420A TURBO KIT non turbo to Turbo

Is there anything wrong with that one? Yes, I've heard all the bs about the "cheap kits" but they're all "well this MIGHT" happen blah blah. I want a DEFINITE answer as to why I should pay 3k for a turbo kit from Hahn rather than spending half that, on pretty much the same kit. (Yes, hahn has fuel injectors. That's really the only difference. I was going to replace those ones anyways).

I really don't want to spend 3k on a turbo kit when this one seems like it's the same thing.


I'm on a tight budget, so I am obviously trying to find something cheap and something that WORKS. So if this doesn't work, by all means I'll get hahn or star or something. But if it works just as well, and all I'm paying for is the brand name with the other kits, I'm not going to bother with them and I'll just get this.

Thank you in advance for the help.

 

[mindset]

It's all build quality and how long it's going to last. Who says you need Hahn? Build your own kit. Turbos are universal. I have to tell Honda kids that over and over again. Its the manifold that you need to get going.

You pay for what you get! Which is why ebay turbos last 3 months. A MHI 16g will last forever...

 

[abaddon_baliel]

Thanks. So the only difference is in the actual turbo? I don't really care about the turbo, I was going to replace it with a more reliable one. I just am buying the kit for the parts, not the turbo.

If there's a cheaper way to build a kit that's more reliable, I'll do it. But I'm not making my own, I'm no good at this kind of thing, and I don't trust my craftsmanship enough to do that to my car.

I'm converting my car to E-85, so that comes with a 255lph fuel pump and 950cc injectors from fic, and I'm upgrading my fuel rail to handle it all. I'm also thinking of nitrous, and if not that then the N-Xpress thing they have. I'm not really THAT concerned with speed, since if I go nitrous I'll just use that to beat whatever I come up against (or come in a really close 2nd.) and crank the boost up. My engine is stock, I'm putting on Felpro gasket and seal kit but that's it, and it has low compression JE pistons in it already. So I'm only looking for like 300-400HP, other than that my car is more for show.

I'm considering the $500 kit I've seen on ebay, just resell the turbo and buy a better one. All its missing is the downpipe, which I was going to take off and have a custom dual exhaust made from the turbo-back at my exhaust shop. So is that something I should look into? As I've said, the e85 kit already has all the fuel upgrades I'll need, so as long as the turbo kit just has the basic turbo things I should be fine right? Oh, I'm getting Megasquirt and the AEM truboost guage boost controller. So do I still have to buy a FMU or will megasquirt do it for me?

I know I wrote a lot here, but I still have tons of questions. I'm not rich so I can't mess around with money, so I want to know as much as I can before I even make a purchase.

Thanks.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

I'm not making my own, I'm no good at this kind of thing, and I don't trust my craftsmanship enough to do that to my car.

I still have tons of questions. I'm not rich so I can't mess around with money.

These two statements suggest that you should do a lot of reading and saving before buying anything. Turbo-kits and nitrous aren't for the faint of heart or the novice. You have a long way to go...

 

[abaddon_baliel]

Well I'm def. not faint of heart or a novice when it comes to high horsepower cars. I've driven a few cars 400whp-550whp. I'm used to the kick and everything. Admittedly, I haven't driven anything with nitrous, and I wouldn't use it unless I was racing a GT-R or something. Light weight and decent HP goes a long way against a car that's "more powerful" but a lot heavier.

Say I do go with the Hahn kit, I'm still upgrading to E85, so I'll sell a couple things from the Hahn kit (i.e., the injectors and fuel pump). The E85 kit comes with a walbro pump and 950cc injectors, as I may have said earlier. Now I need to know what I need as far as management, ### I know nothing about those things.. I just don't understand them. So fuel/air management, or whatever. I need to know what I need to get. Do I need to stick with the rising rate FMU that comes with the hahn kit, or upgrade to something else? What about everything else? What will megasquirt do for me?

I need to know what gauges, controls, etc. I need to get, pretty much.

Thanks.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Well I'm def. not faint of heart or a novice when it comes to high horsepower cars. I've driven a few cars 400whp-550whp. I'm used to the kick and everything. Admittedly, I haven't driven anything with nitrous, and I wouldn't use it unless I was racing a GT-R or something. Light weight and decent HP goes a long way against a car that's "more powerful" but a lot heavier.

Say I do go with the Hahn kit, I'm still upgrading to E85, so I'll sell a couple things from the Hahn kit (i.e., the injectors and fuel pump). The E85 kit comes with a walbro pump and 950cc injectors, as I may have said earlier. Now I need to know what I need as far as management, ### I know nothing about those things.. I just don't understand them. So fuel/air management, or whatever. I need to know what I need to get. Do I need to stick with the rising rate FMU that comes with the hahn kit, or upgrade to something else? What about everything else? What will megasquirt do for me?

I need to know what gauges, controls, etc. I need to get, pretty much.

Thanks.

I didn't mean turbochargers and nitrous systems weren't for a novice driver, I meant they're not for a novice mechanic. If you don't know what goes into a turbosystem, and you don't trust yourself to do the research and figure it out, then the Hahn kit is the best path for you. This kit comes with everything you need, including engine management for modest boost levels. I would start there before attempting to dive into more serious engine management techniques.

 

[abaddon_baliel]

I had figured that's what you meant. I just thought I'd cover both bases.


So say I ran 8psi daily, but I cranked it up to 15-22 for a race? Is that fuel management system ok or do I need something more specific? I'm getting huge injectors and whatnot as per the E85 build, and I assume the injector size doesn't affect the fuel management? I'm also getting a new fuel rail to adjust correctly to the injectors, and it has a port for nitrous if I do decide to do that later down the road.

I do like the hahn kit, I like everything about it, except the price tag. But, I have heard it's very reliable and it's the best out there... so I guess it's worth it?

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Fuel injectors do affect your engine management choice; you need a way to control them. For anything more than about 14psi of boost, you'll need electronic means of controlling those injectors. Hahn's PortFueler or Megasquirt are just about your only options.

You shouldn't really need a new fuel rail.

The Hahn kit is nice for those who can't design a turbosystem of their own. There are certain parts in it that I don't personally like, but at least the kit is comprehensive and well tested.

 

[abaddon_baliel]

The main thing I like about the hahn kit is the intercooler. I love the piping on it, and I love how clean everything looks with the kit as a whole.


Keeping that in mind... you said you don't like some things about it, so what would you suggest?

 

[bmxunderground]

There are a ton of variables to consider when trying to convert to turbo. Strength of the material used for the manifold (also the design), the quality of the turbo itself, and overall whether or not the kit is true bolt on (meaning down pipe included) or just a few boxes of all (well most) of the parts for a turbo set up. (still requiring fabrication and routing of both IC piping as well as the down pipe if any exhaust pipe is even provided.)

Trying to pick a turbo setup out before understanding everything involved can lead you down a long and aggravating road, not to mention expensive as well.

If you really want to get a conversation going about what your options are, PM me and I'll give you my phone number. If not then i'll give you my quick run down on the difference between a 1500.00 kit vs. a 3500.00 kit in a post tomorrow morning

 

[tec_41]

I'm just finishing putting together my turbo kit right now, so I feel like I can offer some advice for ya

If you absolutely cannot afford a quality turbo kit, you absolutely need to start doing a LOT of research! I've kept track of what I've spent on all my parts so far (not including the hardware and stuff I'll need when I install it) and I've only spent *checks total* $743. This was done over a period of about 3-4 months with hours upon hours spent on Craigslist, ebay, and forums. What I do is research every part down to the smallest detail. I see which one will fit my application, post on forums, then spend some time trying to find the best deal on it. Some times people don't know what they're selling- I picked up a turbo manifold WITH a 38mm Tial Sport wastegate for $150 the other day. Steal! So take a lot of time, and you can save a lot of money.

Keep in mind there are some parts you can skimp on too. Intercooler piping kits are just pipes...so go with an Ebay kit if you like. Otherwise if you aren't comfortable routing the pipes you can probably have a local shop do it for you for a little more cost.

The best way to save money is to research how to do something yourself. I've experienced this over the last few months and can tell you- the wait is worth it. Good luck!

 

[barza21]

I had figured that's what you meant. I just thought I'd cover both bases.


So say I ran 8psi daily, but I cranked it up to 15-22 for a race? Is that fuel management system ok or do I need something more specific? I'm getting huge injectors and whatnot as per the E85 build, and I assume the injector size doesn't affect the fuel management? I'm also getting a new fuel rail to adjust correctly to the injectors, and it has a port for nitrous if I do decide to do that later down the road.

I do like the hahn kit, I like everything about it, except the price tag. But, I have heard it's very reliable and it's the best out there... so I guess it's worth it?

Do a lot of reading before you attempt anything; you are asking really basic questions that have been answered several times before.

Do one thing at a time, don't do the E85 conversion while you are installing your turbo kit, take it one step at a time.

 

[rstare]

There's a lot of points to address here....

I really don't want to spend 3k on a turbo kit when this one seems like it's the same thing.

First of all, there are loads of differences between the Ebay kit and the Hahn kit. One being, that the Hahn kit is reliable, tested, and proven. It also comes with fuel management, whereas the Ebay kits don't. The turbo included in Hahn's kit is also completely different; it uses a 16G whereas the Ebay kit is a T3/T4.

You pay for what you get! Which is why ebay turbos last 3 months. A MHI 16g will last forever...

A good point, but I'm using an Ebay turbo and it's been working great for over a year now. So, while the statement, "you get what you pay for", is very true, in my case the Ebay turbo has treated me well.

If there's a cheaper way to build a kit that's more reliable, I'll do it.

Building your kit is by far the best route to go. The main difference between all the kits is fuel management.
This is your biggest decision to make, "how do you want to control your fuel?".
If your running 8psi then a 12:1 fmu will be just fine.
If your looking to run a little more boost then you'll need an sfmu, with bigger injectors.
After that point, you need to start worrying about your stock internals, they're not going to be able to take much more after about 12psi... obviously it depends on tune and other factors, but I'm using 12psi as a rough estimate.
Beyond that you really need forged internals.
If you have forged internals then you can use a sfmu up to about 15psi and then you have to start worrying about ignition timing. This is where MegaSquirt would be very handy.

So say I ran 8psi daily, but I cranked it up to 15-22 for a race?

You can never just turn up the boost, never.

The main thing I like about the hahn kit is the intercooler. I love the piping on it, and I love how clean everything looks with the kit as a whole.

I too liked Hahn's intercooler. I purchased it seperately from their kit and other than that I peiced together my own kit. I got an Sfmu because I wanted to run more than 8psi.

It also seems like you're jumping around between Nitrous, E85, and turbo. Try to focus on one thing at a time here.
Paul has already pointed out that it seems like you need to do a lot more reading and saving before jumping into this, and I concur with him.

 

[Dark DSM]

It sounds like he has too much going on at once. Wanting to run high boost with all kinds of conversions like E85, how does that exactly help a turbo situation? Or are you just doing it for shits and giggles? And i wold seriously back off the nitrous, get your turbo system functional first, then come back to that later. Another thing that really bothered me was the 900+cc injectors, thats extremely harcore when trying to make the thing idle, (been there done that). Chances are the way your going now, your already about to spend big money whether you realize it or not. You almost may as well invest in the portfueler or ms systems. I personally have a basis of the PF system in mine, although i made some custom mods to it, and it was cheaper. I have the OBX manifold, and bought 4 universal injector bungs from a user on Ebay, and drilled elongated holes in the bottom of the runners and angles them towards the head, and had them tig welded in($35) . And made special brackets to hold everything together. So ultimatly i spent approx. $800 on my system, rather than the $1400 it would normally come out too..... Believe me I am not knocking you in any way, im just trying to understand the method behind the madness you got going on, .

 

[kergilman]

I bought the Hahn kit (because it was a proven kit) to learn about turbo function and have been running it for about 2 years now. It is concidered a bolt-on kit but you still have some pretty involved things to do to get it installed unless you work daily as a mechanic...

 

[inxfernxo]

Ok so i've been looking at a Hahn Stage II for a while now and I got couple questions for the RS-T guys.

1. Hahn comes with a 2.25" downpipe, did you all change it to a 3"?
2. 2.5" or 3" exhaust?
2. 55mm TB or 60mm TB?

I guess there is one piece I'm missing, I plan on using this car still for driving to and from work....

 

[abaddon_baliel]

I'd much rather build my own kit, but idk where to get hahn's intercooler/piping. That's really the only part of the kit that I want. I'm doing the E85 before I turbo, and I may never do nitrous, I just said I'm considering it. E85 is for cheaper gas and better performance. Also, it provides some good fuel options, so I thought it'd be best all around.

And I do understand most of the things I'm asking, I'm just asking for advice on a few things I've missed... but I don't understand electrical things at all, (hence the fuel management) and I don't understand boost.

My engine has low compression JE Pistons in it, but that's all that I know of that's not stock. So how much could it handle? I'm also putting a felpro gasket/seal kit on it.

I want around 400hp, and I don't see any reason to build the rest of the engine for that goal. I've heard of eclipses (420a) with stock internals reaching that number, so I'm really not that concerned with it.

I'm upgrading the clutch so it can handle it, and ignition and misc. other upgrades.

I'm doing E85 first (as I stated above), then after a while when I have the money I'll turbo. I'd prefer to build my own kit, seeing as it's cheaper and that way I get what I want, not something that some company has put together for me. I was going to resell half of the hahn kit anyways.

What's the difference in performance from T3/T4 turbos VS 16G+?

For the E85, I'm obviously going to need better management. Would just getting megasquirt be sufficient? And that would work with the turbo application as well?

Someone mentioned idle problems with big injectors -- why is this? What can I do?

 

[cs82685]

I'll address a couple points

I want around 400hp, and I don't see any reason to build the rest of the engine for that goal. I've heard of eclipses (420a) with stock internals reaching that number, so I'm really not that concerned with it.

No 420a has reached that kind of power on stock internals. The record for completely stock internals is somewhere around 31Xwhp. With that said, you also said this...

My engine has low compression JE Pistons in it, but that's all that I know of that's not stock. So how much could it handle?

Are you absolutely sure that it has JE pistons, or was that something the previous owner told you without proof of it? The weak part of our motors is the pistons, but you're going to be hard pressed to make the kind of power you want with only pistons and stock rods. Do it right the first time and rebuild the bottom end, I mean if you're going through the trouble of changing the HG, you might as well check out the internals of the block to see what they are, if pistons or rods are stock, upgrade; if they're forged, leave them alone.

One other thing I think you may have heard of 420a's making the amount of power you want on stock heads (not stock blocks) as the head is a great design from the get go and has proven reliable time and again.

I'd much rather build my own kit, but idk where to get hahn's intercooler/piping.

Just gotta call Hahn up and order it

What's the difference in performance from T3/T4 turbos VS 16G+?

You'll have more turbo options if you go with a t3/t4 flanged manifold.

Last few tidbits
-learn as much as you can about megasquirt, it's going to be the best thing for you
-for gauges, look into something like zeitronix, you can get their touchscreen setup and monitor a/f with a wideband, boost, rpms, egt's etc. with one unit. With that said it will be quite pricey (probably ~$1K for the unit with all the accessories needed to log above mentioned items)
-check out treadstone performance turbo kits, they IMO provide the best starting options to build a turbo kit around, you can get the manifold, turbo, downpipe, and fmic and piping from them then put the rest of your kit together with parts that you want and it will require little or no fabrication. (I believe you'll need to take the car to an exhaust shop for them to hook the downpipe up to your cat once installed)

 

[rstare]

I'd much rather build my own kit, but idk where to get hahn's intercooler/piping. That's really the only part of the kit that I want. I'm doing the E85 before I turbo, and I may never do nitrous, I just said I'm considering it. E85 is for cheaper gas and better performance. Also, it provides some good fuel options, so I thought it'd be best all around.

While E85 is cheaper and can help lead to better preformance, it may not be the best option. First of all, E85 isn't readily avaliable at every gas station. Secondly, you can't just start using E85, it'll eat up your fuel system, not to mention it has a different stoichiometric rate than traditional gasoline. Your ECU isn't going to change the fuel trim because you just put it E85 in the tank. You'll need a way to completely control your fuel setup: MegaSquirt.

My engine has low compression JE Pistons in it, but that's all that I know of that's not stock. So how much could it handle? I'm also putting a felpro gasket/seal kit on it.

Chances are if someone took the time to put JE Pistons in, they also changed the rods. There is no definate answer on how much it can handle, but I wouldn't push it, unless you know exactly what is in the engine.

I want around 400hp, and I don't see any reason to build the rest of the engine for that goal. I've heard of eclipses (420a) with stock internals reaching that number, so I'm really not that concerned with it.
I'm upgrading the clutch so it can handle it, and ignition and misc. other upgrades.

If you have the stock rods you can't make 400hp. If you have a stock head then at 400hp you're going to be "outflowing" the head. (I think that's the right verbage)

I'm doing E85 first (as I stated above), then after a while when I have the money I'll turbo. I'd prefer to build my own kit, seeing as it's cheaper and that way I get what I want, not something that some company has put together for me. I was going to resell half of the hahn kit anyways.

If I were you, I would start with the turbo kit, and work your way up. Don't start with an E85 conversion, you'll need MegaSquirt in order to do that and I honestly think you'll be getting ahead of yourself.

What's the difference in performance from T3/T4 turbos VS 16G+?

There's much more options going with the T3/T4 than the 16G. I would suggest the T3/T4. Learn how to read compressor maps and take a look to see which one would be better for you if you really want to know.

Someone mentioned idle problems with big injectors -- why is this? What can I do?

If you switch out the injectors, the ECU doesn't really know it. It would still act as if you have the 190cc (factory rated) injectors. So, therefore, you would end up with way too much fuel.
There's two ways to handle this:
1. Lower the fuel pressure, obviously less pressure behind the injectors when they open, less fuel gets in. Although, this method only works up to about 450cc injectors because it will take the fuel pressure so low.
2. Control the injector pulsewidths. Basically, get MegaSquirt, .

 

[abaddon_baliel]

Megasquirt -- Which one?
MegaSquirt Complete Assembled Units including Relay Boards and Stimulators - DIYAutoTune.com

The gauges -- what all do I need? Their descriptions are confusing considering I have no idea what it means.
Is this fine or do I need the dash shit too?
Zeitronix ZT-2 & ZR-2 Wideband / Boost / EGT Gauge Package - Modern Automotive Performance
(this is the dash shit I'm talking about)
Zeitronix DashDAQ OBDII Compatible Wideband System - Modern Automotive Performance

The pistons, I know are in it. Idk about the rods though.

I was thinking of eventually buying a built 2.4l block (rather, sending mine in to have it rebuilt).

Are you telling me now that I have to replace the heads too? (You said I'd be outflowing them @ 400)

 

[abaddon_baliel]

I can't decide what to do with the injectors. I've read through the forums on the E85 subject and the injectors that comes w/ the kit seem to be sized correctly (950cc). No one has mentioned any idle problems or anything. I was going to get 500cc injectors because my power goals aren't that high at the moment, but decided against it. I plan on building for 600whp when I rebuild the entire engine, but for the moment I'm fine with 400. Since I'm getting megasquirt to control the injectors anyways, the size of the injectors shouldn't matter, should it? I'm going to need to get bigger than 950cc when I go for the total rebuild eventually anyways, and for 400whp I was thinking 880cc would be perfect, so the ones I'm getting shouldn't make that much more of a difference. (I think they're capable of 550whp on a built/tuned engine).

Also, where do I get my engine tuned at? And how much does it cost? Do I have to get it tuned after the turbo, or E85, or both?

Another note, I noticed in the forums talk of running lean since the walbro can't keep up with the fuel needed for higher HP applications, and one member said he just added another walbro pump to his tank. Is this advisable?

 

[abaddon_baliel]

For you to understand everything, this is my shopping list:

Treadstone t3/t4 turbo kit $1800
-Tial 38mm wastegate upgrade
-Turbonetics T3/T4 T04E 50 trim turbocharger
Zeitronix ZT-2/ZR-2 Gauge Package $500
Vortech SFMU $300 <-- need?
Megasquirt $400
E85 fuel conversion kit $800
MSD DIS-2 ignition $400
MSD ignition coil $78
OBX chrome intake manifold kit $313
OBX map sensor fix $50
OBX helical lsd $490
mpx 60mm throttle body $250
felpro gasket/seal kit $119
SPEC stage 5 clutch $747
Fidanza aluminum flywheel $200
Fluidyne radiator $380
Fidanza short throw shifter $79
tokico blue hp suspension kit $400
tanabe sustec swaybar $195
DC Sports carbon steel front strut $129
DC Sports carbon steel rear strut $139
goodridge stainless steel brake lines $115
powerslot big brake kit $209
-6 AN ss fuel lines (20ft) $89



Suggestions, fixes, etc. greatly appreciated.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Megasquirt -- Which one?
MegaSquirt Complete Assembled Units including Relay Boards and Stimulators - DIYAutoTune.com

You should buy your Megasquirt ECU from a vendor that makes them specifically for the 420A platform. DIYAutotune units need to be configured.

 

[rstare]

You're not listening. Do one thing at a time.
I would suggest a basic turbo system first. 12:1 FMU with stock injectors, 8psi. The Treadstone turbo kit would be perfect for this.

 

[rstare]

You should buy your Megasquirt ECU from a vendor that makes them specifically for the 420A platform. DIYAutotune units need to be configured.

Like Symtech Labs