Need advice, PLEASE read! (breakdown/new motor?)

[chris712vt]

WHAT HAPPENED: My car just broke down on me one night with no warning. Restarted with a rough idle and clanking noise, then had no power and shut off when I gave it gas. After a couple attempts it quit starting all together. It did still turn over though...

WHAT I FOUND: Took off the small plate on the timing cover, timing belt looked fine. Oil was fine, battery and alternator were fine, I assumed it was fuel related but don't have the resources or experience to find the problem myself. So I had it towed to a shop...

INITIAL INFO FROM THE SHOP AFTER TESTING: First of all, the shop is very familiar with DSMs. The fuel pump and filter have been checked and I have good fuel pressure, ignition and spark are normal as well... apparently the timing belt skipped some teeth and at least one of my cams was pretty far off. Compression test yielded 50, 120, 150, and 40 psi in cyllinders 1-2-3-4 respectively. The guy said he worked on an eclipse recently that had its tensioner pulley wearing away to the point where the timing belt was too loose to function correctly and he's afraid mine might have the same problem.

LATEST NEWS FROM THE SHOP: It turns out that my belt slipped somehow and skipped some teeth, my pistons slammed into my intake valves on cyllinders 1 and 4, and I have metal shavings in my oil pan. That's all we know so far since I haven't authorized the shop to tear down the motor and find out exactly what has happened. They think I should just get a new motor since there may be extensive damage judging by these metal shavings with no known source. (If the belt slipped on the cam gears, could it have slipped on the oil pump as well and caused metal-metal contact damage?)...

ADVICE: I've found a used 420A locally from a 97 Eclipse GS with 91,000 miles for $550. Does this sound like a good deal if it's in good running condition? Or should I take a chance and aim to fix my motor by getting a new set of valves, a new timing kit, and hoping the metal shavings in the oil are just from the broken valves?

Thank you very much for any input or help you can give me!

 

[DSMcrazy3]

1 and 4 are gone, obviously. I would assume from how much contact was made with the pistons and valves there would be damage to both. Getting it fixed will cost more than 500, that's for sure.

 

[McLaren58]

If the Tbelt skipped and bent some valves then you should just need a top end job but if "shavings" were found in the oil then that might require a full rebuild. Bent valves should have nothing to do with the shavings(i hope). who knows the metal could be cam wear and the bottom end could be solid. I'm not entirely familiar with 420a oil pumps but from some of the really bad oil pumps i've seen in my shop it wouldnt wear enough to have shavings. If i were you i might get a "oilfax" report. Usually cost around $30-$50. They will tell you exactly what is found in your oil and the part it came from.They can usually tell you what kind of oil your using. You just send them a coulpe of onces in one of their sample jars. My boss used to own the company then sold it a couple of years ago. Now we just send the samples straight to the lab instead of the middle man. hope this helps

http://www.plannet-media.com/oilfax/

P.S. make sure you see the mechanic pull the sample from YOUR car instead of some junker

 

[TalonESIT]

If the Tbelt skipped and bent some valves then you should just need a top end job but if "shavings" were found in the oil then that might require a full rebuild. Bent valves should have nothing to do with the shavings(i hope).

I don't think they are directly relating the shavings to the bent valves...

When you say you heard a noise in with your car, was it a loud knock type of noise? Did it grow louder as you revved? Before my motor blew before the rebuild, due to a faulty oil pump, the rods were knocking for dear life before the car completely shut off and the motor froze...

 

[chris712vt]

no, when it broke down there was no noise. no grinding, knocking, anything. the only noises i heard were a tapping sound after i restarted it while it idled (broken valves?), and then only one time i heard a metal-metal screetch while trying to start the motor.

 

[chris712vt]

Update on my situation: I called the place with that 97 motor and they sold it last week. My luck just sucks... If it weren't for my poor-college-student budget I'd get a brand new built motor right now, but that used motor + parts + labor was already a lot of money for me.

Thanks for the help so far, keep it coming.

 

[Blitzeclips]

If your timing was thrown off, you may want to check the cam caps for damage too. If you throw the cam's off course, or starve from oil, they will scorch pretty bad.

I would associate the metal shavings with that, or possibly some debris from the vavles coming together with the pistons.

I've heard that screeching before. My buddy's car broke down in the middle of the city(philly) at 2 in the morning. What happened was, somehow, the starter stripped the flywheel clean. Took out atleast 4 or 5 teeth. Therefore, the car wouldn't start. It would just keep trying to kick over and over, but nothing was there to grab. Not saying that's what happened though.

That's a shitty situation though. As a student on a budget myself, I can see where you're coming from. My motor shitted on me when I was still a sophmore in high school. Try affording that ! I was broke for a while.

I think a spare engine is your best bet. Have the shop swap it in if you can't. It would save you money if you did it yourself though..

 

[4UH8ERS]

First off, I just want to say thank you for your excellent spelling, punctuation, and sentence structure. For a new member thats a good start.

I am sorry to hear about your situation. I actually burnt a hole straight through the edge of my #4 piston. Right next to the ring lands. The funny thing is I had a bad crankshaft sensor an tried to floor it because it was cutting out on me between barrier walls and boom. Anyways back to the OP.

I personally think that when you jumped timing it caused your car to stall out and die. Then when you restarted it, thats when your valves made the actual contact with the pistons and therefore the clanking noise was initiated. Usually once you actually hear the clanking then its too late. We don't have very much valve clearance on our engines so if your timing is off a few teeth then it can definately do some damage. some of course are luckier then others.

If at all possible I would just ask the shop if you can go in there and just pull the cylinder head off for them, and then make your decision from there. If you left the engine running for a minute while the valves where tapping, you might have scored the piston heads and the metal shavings could be from that. let us know how it goes man.

Additional info: There is actually a guy on 2gnt right now that is gaining interest on parting out his car. He has a brand new rebuilt bottom end with 0 miles hes trying to sell and his prices have been really good on all his part quotes so far. So you might want to check into that.

Heres the link he is only asking 350+shipping: http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=16&topic_id=103627&mode=full

 

[chris712vt]

Awesome, thanks for the link! And good info as well, I appreciate it.

There's a decent chance I may be buying my friend's 2.2L howell stroker with hahn turbo kit... I've wanted that motor for a while now, and I planned to get in in a couple years, but if the price is right I may splurge and get it now. In that case I'll be going from an underpowered NA to a built, boosted, and stroked 420... I'll keep you all posted on my decision!

 

[4UH8ERS]

Sounds Nice.

If you do decide to purchase a new engine it would be a good time to get in on the group buy that paul/symtech labs is having for phenolic spacers. So much easier to install with the engine out of the car.

 

[chris712vt]

Well I've decided to just go big. Buying my friend's Howell 2.2 built stroker motor. It's got 12k miles on it. Decent jump from the stock 420a huh? Now it just needs a turbo (only getting the motor, turbo kit was already sold)...

Bottom end:
- 2.2 L stroker long block, bored .02, honed, decked
- 3.540" stroker crankshaft
- Eagle forged rods
- JE (8.6) forged pistons
- Total Seal piston rings
- crankshaft and rotating assembly "race" balanced
- Clevite 77 main and rod bearings
- Mopar gaskets and seals
- Melling oil pump
- Carter water pump

Head:
- full "race" port and polish
- Crane cams
- AEM adjustable cam gears
- Crane valve springs
- stainless steel valves
- Eaton PTC rockers
- Eaton PTC lifters
- MLS head gasket
- all new gaskets and seals
- new timing belt

 

[4UH8ERS]

Maybe you should send me your new head, and ill give you my stock one

 

[chris712vt]

hmmm... let's make a deal. We'll trade your head for my old one haha!

I'll update soon. The motor should be here Wednesday (2 days) and since my last post I've found out that it got all new valves, 3-angle valve job, and new timing kit less than 1000 miles ago. Plus I'm swapping in a Clutchmasters Stage-4 and lightweight flywheel instead of my stock one which had been slipping lately.

, all in all, I've bought a fully built stroker motor, clutch, and full 2G-b Eclipse conversion body parts from the same friend of mine in the past 3 months. My Talon is basically his car reborn again.

 

[4UH8ERS]

hmmm... let's make a deal. We'll trade your head for my old one haha!

I'll update soon. The motor should be here Wednesday (2 days) and since my last post I've found out that it got all new valves, 3-angle valve job, and new timing kit less than 1000 miles ago. Plus I'm swapping in a Clutchmasters Stage-4 and lightweight flywheel instead of my stock one which had been slipping lately.

, all in all, I've bought a fully built stroker motor, clutch, and full 2G-b Eclipse conversion body parts from the same friend of mine in the past 3 months. My Talon is basically his car reborn again.

Must be nice!. A built or boosted 420a around here is about as rare as an original 69 chevelle convertible. I have only seen 1 built 420a other than mine in my life here in arkansas and it was a piece of junk.