Boring, stroking and more.

[Metapharstic]

Whats up ladies and gents ;P Long time reader, first time poster. I own a 95 Eclipse GS. My 420A has a rebuilt head, is breathing through an injen true cold air ebay intake, and is boofing through a full cat-back exhaust. I have a few other small things done to the car as well, like a short shifter, bright blue reverse lights, and (fake, haha) projection headlights.

The rebuilt head and cat-back exhaust are actually a funny story. The kid that owned this car before me went into the army right after high school, and the car was actually originally bought in North Carolina, so the body is was immaculate. No rust on the body anywhere, I dont think its seen snow this now. I'm from the Quad Cities, IL. Anyone that has expirenced a midwest winter knows all about the overkill amounts of salt they dump EVERYWHERE. Either way finding a used car without rust locally is few and far between, so I was tickled. After I bought the car and looked at the title, I realized when this kid bought the car in 2000, it only had 71,000 miles. You know how many miles were on this car when I bought it? 82,000. Is that f*cking sweet or just redicilous? 11k miles in 6 years, wow. Either way, I just got way off track. Rebuilt head and catback exhaust, right? So this kid drove this Eclipse back up to the Quad Cities from NC (long ass drive) and stored it in between his army excursions. I guess hes back in Iraq for the 3rd time(I actually bought the car from his parents, haha). So either way, the last time he was back, he tried cutting the cat out of the exhaust thinking he was going to get a couple hp, right? I guess 420A's are pretty picky, exhaust wise. He ran a straight pipe, there was to much decompression I'm assuming, and he blew his head. Went back to Iraq and left his parents with a very sexy paper weight. Either way, they ended up paying $1,600 to have the engine "rebuilt" and stacked another $600 on top of that to replace the hacked up exhaust with a very clean, awesome sounding cat-back exhaust ending in a hawt cannon style straight through muffler. I just bought a badass 12 megapixel camera a few days ago, I'll have to post some pictures. Either way, I have a question regarding the engine being blown that will come in a sec.

Theres a couple things I'm forgetting to mention too, front and back strut bars, brand freaking new rotors and ceramic brake pads, polished aluminum 16" ten spoke rims in a 5 spoke formation. They were sexy before the filthy snow and gobs of brake dust from the brakes I just installed. They were asking $5,800 for it, oh yea, the kid had also bought a (what I'm assuming was) a blitz ebay full body kit that he had trouble putting on the car, so he gave up and stuffed the whole kit in a shed to rot. He had also bought under bodys, but bust one of the 4 neons trying to install it. Either way, for $5,800 they were going to sell the car and the body kit, and sell the neons on the side. I ended up talking them down to $4,500 and bought the car the next day.

Man, alright, I'm sure everyone is probably tired of reading by now, but I'm getting closer to the point of the thread, so bear with me! =)

Alright, so I've been driving this car for like 2 months, I've already put like 5k miles on it, and I'm getting salty because, well, our roads are so salty and I dont want rusted out wheel wells come spring, or even worse, have an ice-caused accident. I love my Eclipse. I love it so freaking much, I dont even want to drive it. I ended up taking a 4 hour road trip across Iowa (I live right on the Iowa/Illinois border in Illinois. Omaha, which is right on the Nebraska/Iowa border is a good 5 hour drive. So a friend and I basically drove to Omaha) to pick up this bust down Ford Tempo. Dont laugh yet, beca use we ended up taking it on the ultimate test drive, a 4 hour state long drive home. Thats a whole story in itself. Ran out of coolant, almost blew the engine, hit a grand am, etc, etc. I'm sure everyone had a story like that, haha. Either way, I paid $250 for this Tempo, brought it back, gave it a $30 tune up (fresh plugs/wires. Changed the oil and filter, the oil must have been like 25k+ miles old. It so sludged, it was almost solid, haha) and a full detail, I bet I could turn around and sell it for $1,200 now. It only has 103k miles and its a 5 speed. Gets good gas milage and with a cone filter attached directly to throttle body, she gets up now, haha.

Either way, I'm a Senior Graphics Coordinator (spruced up way of saying Graphics Admin or Manager) and I make good money. So back to the, "I freaking love my eclipse so much I dont want to drive it." I'm wanting to rebuild my block while I have it stored. I want to bore and stroke the engine, get overbore pistons and super dense rods. The cams are going to have to get replaced and I wouldnt mind bolting on a header while I'm at it. I want to maximize my displacement while I build my engine for a rear mount turbo. Basically, my questions are something along the lines of:

Boring: Is this the kind of thing where I can get overbore pistons for a 420A and just have a shop bore out my block to match? Whats the maximum amount you can bore each piston in a 420A?

Stroking: I'm assuming the only thing you really need to do to stroke an engine is to get shorter/stroked rods?

Boring & stroking: My engine was blown previously, is this going to effect me in any way when I start modifying the block? When I have my turbo in hand, I want my engine to be ready/safe to push 25+ psi. Is increasing the raw displacement of my engine going to effect the amount of boost I want to run? Boring and stroking my engine, whats the best I'd be able to get out of it? Maybe an extra half liter over all 4 cylinders? Like, take my 420A from a 2.0 to a 2.5? How much extra hp will I gain off the extra displacement? Like maybe 40-50hp if even? Maybe, like, an extra 20-25hp at the wheels realistically?

Rear-mounting a turbo: (I know this belongs in turbo tech but I didnt want to break the thread up into two because alot of my questions crisscross) I havent seen much about rear mounting turbos in DSMs, but basically my question is, if I was replacing my muffler with my turbo(like you ususally do in a rear-mount set up) if I have to worry about my intake being so long that the air at the throttle body isnt compressed enough to start the car. Also, in a rear mount DSM situation, where do you place an intercooler/B.O.V. Also, I was curious if its possible, if instead of replacing the muffler with a turbo, if its safe to stuff the turbo where the cat is. I mean, I know its not legal, and I also know cutting out the cat is the reason the guy that owned the car before me blew the engine, but that would save slack on the intake and lower turbo lag. Also, if I was running a rear mounted turbo at like 25-30psi, even with the 4-5 feet of like 3-4" intake piping, should I be considering replacing my throttle body and intake manifold?

Cams: No questions really, I understand cams control your throttle body, and replacing them with performance cams increase your hp by like 20hp+, I was more curious about how the adjustable cam gears work.

Torque: I know this is probably a newbier question, but what can be done to increase just the raw torque?

Header: Ususally when planning to turbo a car, people don't consider headers. The whole idea of rear mounting a turbo is that I wont lose the 40% engine power like most turbo'ed cars. I want to to be able to push 25-30psi of boost without taking a single hp off the engine. That said, mounting a header normally, at least one where each pipe coming off the engine is the same length, is almost like a ghetto super-charger. Each pipe being the same length allowing each chamber to totally dispel all exhaust out of the chamber. Would that effect/increase when my turbo starts to spool?

Fuel Injectors: Can Fuel Injectors be controlled with something like DSMlink? Or will I pretty much forced to replace the fuel injectors to compensate for the extra displacement/turbo

Helical: Makes both my wheels move at the same time? Is this something I'm going to want to invest in?

CV joints/axels: I'm assuming they make, like, high-quality 500whp joints/shafts. Out of curiousity, would running a boosted like 500whp+ 9-10 sec quarter mile snap stock axels?

Transmission: Would I be straight with, like, a new racing clutch? Or when I'm hp like that, is a new transmission something I'm going to need to consider? Seriously consider?

Traction: Besides racing slicks or converting the car to all wheel drive, whats the best way to maintain traction when drastically increasing the hp like so?

DSMlink: A carputer, either mounted in my glove-box or trunk, has been in the plans for a long time. I've also been thinking about going as far as mounting, like, a powerhouse full sized computer in the spare tire well and running my power button, CD drive and USB ports to the front of the car and mounting the in the dash so I can use/watch/burn CDs and DvDs without having to even access the computer. Then mounting the LCD screen either where the center vents are or, leading to my next question:

Passenger Airbag Mods: I dont see much about this, but the passenger airbag gives alot of room to work with. I realize the space that the airbag comes out is only the size of like an old PS2 (right?) But isnt that more then enough to mount a hide-away LCD screen on like an actuator with a swivel head or something? What kind of DSM passenger airbag mods have people seen/heard of?

I have the money to blow, I'm scrooging it this Christmas since last year I went crazy and got bought presents for everyone, but only got, like, 20% of the amount of presents that I gave out, if that makes sense. Basically, I blew hella cash last year on everyone and didn't get shit... salty.

So putting a turbo on the side for a sec. Just boring/stroking the engine, replacing the cams/header, theoretically I'd be sitting at what, like 200-220hp? Then an extra 10hp for every psi I make? How much would an intake manifold/throttle body help? Not at all till I start boosting?

I'll post some pictures in the next few days. Either way, I'm just trying to get some feedback on the best thing to do before I start sucking up parts for everything. I'm sorry for making this first post so ridiculously long, haha. I'm eagerly awaiting replies! =D

~~ZaK Kapua ;D

 

[cs82685]

Boring: Is this the kind of thing where I can get overbore pistons for a 420A and just have a shop bore out my block to match? Whats the maximum amount you can bore each piston in a 420A?

Stroking: I'm assuming the only thing you really need to do to stroke an engine is to get shorter/stroked rods?

Boring & stroking: My engine was blown previously, is this going to effect me in any way when I start modifying the block? When I have my turbo in hand, I want my engine to be ready/safe to push 25+ psi. Is increasing the raw displacement of my engine going to effect the amount of boost I want to run? Boring and stroking my engine, whats the best I'd be able to get out of it? Maybe an extra half liter over all 4 cylinders? Like, take my 420A from a 2.0 to a 2.5? How much extra hp will I gain off the extra displacement? Like maybe 40-50hp if even? Maybe, like, an extra 20-25hp at the wheels realistically?

~~ZaK Kapua ;D

The most I've seen our stock displacement bumped up is .2L Howell automotive sells a 2.2L stroker kit. There's also the option of using a 2.4L block out of a cloud car and getting up to ~2.5-2.6L IDK if it would really effect the amount of boost you want to run, but more so effect the size of the turbo you want to run. More displacement bigger turbo

Cams: No questions really, I understand cams control your throttle body, and replacing your then with performance cams increase your hp like 20hp+, I was more curious about how the adjustable cam gears work.


~~ZaK Kapua ;D

you mean they control your valves, they don't control your throttle body. Adjustable cam gears take time and patience to get small gains on

Header: Ususally when planning to turbo a car, people don't consider headers. The whole idea of rear mounting a turbo is that I wont lose the 40% engine power like most turbo'ed cars. I want to to be able to push 25-30psi of boost without taking a single hp off the engine. That said, mounting a header normally, at least one where each pipe coming off the engine is the same length, is almost like a ghetto super-charger. Each pipe being the same length allowing each chamber to totally dispel all exhaust out of the chamber. Would that effect/increase when my turbo starts to spool?

huh??? 40% loss where did you come up with that???

Fuel Injectors: Can Fuel Injectors be controlled with something like DSMlink? Or will I pretty much forced to replace the fuel injectors to compensate for the extra displacement/turbo

your stock injectors will be maxed out long, long, long before you get to your goals and you can't use DSMlink on a 420a

CV joints/axels: I'm assuming they make, like, high-quality 500whp joints/shafts. Out of curiousity, would running a boosted like 500whp+ 9-10 sec quarter mile snap stock axels?

Check Driveshaftshop yes you will snap stock axels but I will put money on you never getting to a 9-10 sec 1/4

Traction: Besides racing slicks or converting the car to all wheel drive, whats the best way to maintain traction when drastically increasing the hp like so?

A good suspension setup

So putting a turbo on the side for a sec. Just boring/stroking the engine, replacing the cams/header, theoretically I'd be sitting at what, like 200-220hp? Then an extra 10hp for every psi I make? How much would an intake manifold/throttle body help? Not at all till I start boosting?

Maybe at the crank you'll get that much but you're not gonna see that kinda whp without a 2.4L block
The highest documented WHP on a n/a 420a is 170

 

[420a-t]

im glad that you really like your dsm man...thats great. but, id highly reccomend on searching on "how much hp will this give me?" kinda stuff.

on boring, i've seen .040 over,i think i recall seeing a .060 but im not sure on that. if the previous owner had the motor rebuilt, then why would you want to do this again? if he did this right, you should't need to take it apart again unless you want to...

why would you want to rear mount your turbo anyways? there is a lot of info on 420a's that have been tubo'ed right off the manifold so why not just do that and save some money? that would be cool if it worked, but i dont see the gain in doing that.

yes you can get an lsd for our cars. i dont have one on mine and i do just fine. if you really want to get to 300-350 whp then this is a must. so are new axles. i actually saw stage IV axles in the classlifides a week ago.


you cannot use dsmlink on 420a's. look into megasquirt.

i just want to warn you that getting to the 300-350 whp mark will be very hard and time consuming. im not telling you to not go for it, i think its sweet when i see the 420a acieve that, i just want to warn you.

good luck!

 

[Metapharstic]

Wow, so we're talking only .2 with a bore & stroke? At least on the 420A block? Or is .2 just the stroke? Could you go further into replacing the block? And I've never heard of a cloud car. =*(

And thats super salty about DSMlink not working on the 420As. Arent 420A's better to turbo though? I thought all the factory 4g63 developed a crank walk within like the first 50k miles?

And whats up with

I will put money on you never getting to a 9-10 sec 1/4

?? Be supportive, not intimidated. I used to work with a guy that drove an automatic talon TSI pushing 30lbs of boost that had a laminated track slip with 10.9 for the quarter-mile. He said he invested less then $2,000 on top of the value of the car. I'm not sure if he was still running on the stock 4g63 turbo. Probably not. Either way, 10 seconds for a quarter mile really isn't that unrealistic. Once you get to a certain point, its just as much the driver as it is the mechanics of the car.

Also, up to 40% is what I should have said. 15-40%, either way, turbos rob real horsepower and replace it with fake, forced hp. Even though its really really powerful forced hp, its forced none the less.

And is 170whp the best anyones gotten with a 420A w/o turbo period, displacement tweaked or not? Or is 170whp the best anyones ever gotten w/ just a 2.0?

~~ZaK Kapua

 

[420a-t]

yeah thats the most anyone has gotten out of the n/a 420a. that is really impressive, considering tht our cars only make 120 whp stock.

not all 4g63's get crankwalk. usually, ony the 7 bolt one's do. and i've seen 2g eclipse's and talons over 150k that have never experienced crankwalk.

that guy you were talking about probably had the stock black as well, seeing that he only put 2g's into it. the downfall to our cars is that if you really want to make boost, you are going to have to rebuild your block and start off with some forged internals.

10's are not unrealistic. search for awddynimite

 

[Metapharstic]

if the previous owner had the motor rebuilt, then why would you want to do this again? if he did this right, you should't need to take it apart again unless you want to...

Because only the head was rebuilt. I dont even want to rebuild the block, I just want to increase the 420a's displacement, which basically means rebuilding the block. Or, maybe even now that replacing just the block has been brought to my attention, that might even be eaiser then trying to tweak tiny bits of displacement from a 2.0.

~~ZaK Kapua

 

[WMD]

turbos rob real horsepower and replace it with fake forced hp

how can the rate at which you expend energy be fake?

 

[4UH8ERS]

first off before i answer any of your questions do you plan on doing the work yourself?

 

[cs82685]

I will put money on you never getting to a 9-10 sec 1/4

Could you go further into replacing the block? And I've never heard of a cloud car. =*(

And whats up with ?? Be supportive, not intimidated. And is 170whp the best anyones gotten with a 420A w/o turbo period, displacement tweaked or not? Or is 170whp the best anyones ever gotten w/ just a 2.0?

~~ZaK Kapua

10's are not unrealistic. search for awddynimite

I wasn't saying that 10's are impossible, but there has been one person who has gone that far and awddynamite, is pretty much there also running an 11 flat. There are probably a few other people with the power to do it too, but you are also going to need to be a really dedicated, good driver with the proper engine and suspension setup to do it. This engine is completely different than a 4g63 it takes much more patience and money to make the same kind of power and achieve the same kinds of times.


Cloud cars are the dodge stratus, cirrus etc. With some modification, you can use their 2.4L blocks in our cars. There is a dyno of a 2.4 swap with no forced induction that dynoed right around 200whp floating around somewhere (no pun intended)

I have no experience with this swap, but off the top of my head I can tell you the oil pan and one of the motor mounts need to be modified or a bracket made or something. Search 2.4 swap

 

[Blitzeclips]

Because only the head was rebuilt. I dont even want to rebuild the block, I just want to increase the 420a's displacement, which basically means rebuilding the block. Or, maybe even now that replacing just the block has been brought to my attention, that might even be eaiser then trying to tweak tiny bits of displacement from a 2.0.

~~ZaK Kapua

I vote for the 2.2L. You increase the power output by 10%, theoretically... Also, long rods. Long rods respond very well to boost and torque output. LIttle more in the lower end..

Then again I am biased...

 

[VelocitàPaola]

WTF

Dear god, man! Thoroughness is great, but there's something to be said for conciseness too! Just get to the point next time!

I know everyone already answered some of these, but I'm just going to throw in my own opinions/thoughts...

Boring: Is this the kind of thing where I can get overbore pistons for a 420A and just have a shop bore out my block to match? Whats the maximum amount you can bore each piston in a 420A?

Yes... in fact, any time you rebuild for performance, boring is usually a good idea, just to give the pistons a clean, true surface to mate to. Most machine shops can do this for you. Most experts agree that it's best not to bore more than 0.050" over the stock bore... beyond that, the cylinder walls get too thin for comfort.

Stroking: I'm assuming the only thing you really need to do to stroke an engine is to get shorter/stroked rods?

Wrong. Stroking involves replacing the crankshaft (the throw on the crankshaft is what determines stroke), which means you'll also need a custom rod/piston combo. It's not worth the extra 0.2L in my opinion.

You can also replace your short block with a factory-stroked 2.4L 420A block from Cirruses, Stratuses, etc.. You really need to know what you're doing, though. It's a huge project that involves a lot of custom fabrication. You can't just jump in and expect to learn along the way.

All that extra displacement will really just help bump up your torque numbers... I don't believe torque and bottom end power is as important of a goal for FWD cars since we suffer traction problems. Top end power is much more important to me; that's why I didn't stroke my engine when I rebuilt.

Boring & stroking: My engine was blown previously, is this going to effect me in any way when I start modifying the block? When I have my turbo in hand, I want my engine to be ready/safe to push 25+ psi. Is increasing the raw displacement of my engine going to effect the amount of boost I want to run? Boring and stroking my engine, whats the best I'd be able to get out of it? Maybe an extra half liter over all 4 cylinders? Like, take my 420A from a 2.0 to a 2.5? How much extra hp will I gain off the extra displacement? Like maybe 40-50hp if even? Maybe, like, an extra 20-25hp at the wheels realistically?

Your block was blown? How? What happened? I suggest you pulling apart your block, then taking it to a reputable machine shop to look it over. Most times, they'll inspect for free if you're a prospective customer. There are so many things that can determine whether or not your block is useable... you need an expert to investigate, or at least have a better idea of what went wrong.

Displacement won't affect maximum capable boost.

Like I said, if I were you, I'd stick with the 2.0L block. You're bound to get more power if you stroke the engine, but it comes down to being able to use that power...

If you still decide you want to do a stroker kit... there's the Howell Kit which gives you 2.2L, then there's the 2.4L block which obviously gives you 2.4L. I've even heard of some people getting custom parts machined to further stroke the 2.4L to give them 2.7L, but that's pretty rare.

Rear-mounting a turbo: (I know this belongs in turbo tech but I didnt want to break the thread up into two because alot of my questions crisscross) I havent seen much about rear mounting turbos in DSMs, but basically my question is, if I was replacing my muffler with my turbo(like you ususally do in a rear-mount set up) if I have to worry about my intake being so long that the air at the throttle body isnt compressed enough to start the car. Also, in a rear mount DSM situation, where do you place an intercooler/B.O.V. Also, I was curious if its possible, if instead of replacing the muffler with a turbo, if its safe to stuff the turbo where the cat is. I mean, I know its not legal, and I also know cutting out the cat is the reason the guy that owned the car before me blew the engine, but that would save slack on the intake and lower turbo lag. Also, if I was running a rear mounted turbo at like 25-30psi, even with the 4-5 feet of like 3-4" intake piping, should I be considering replacing my throttle body and intake manifold?

Don't rear mount the turbo. I know there's websites out there that swear by it, and they give you a million reasons why rear-mounted turbos are so great... but honestly, what's the point? Make your life easier and mount it conventionally. You're just asking for trouble if you insist on rear-mounting it.

He blew the engine because he didn't have a cat? You're going to have to explain that one...

By the way, I'm realizing your goals are quite hefty... do a lot more research before you buy anything! Some of the ideas you've come up with are just plain ridiculous. Innovation is a great thing, but you need to realize what's practical and what's not. No offense... I'm just trying to spare you headaches later on down the road.

Cams: No questions really, I understand cams control your throttle body, and replacing them with performance cams increase your hp by like 20hp+, I was more curious about how the adjustable cam gears work.

What? Cams (camshafts) determine when the valves open and shut. Replacing them only helps after you've done some serious mods to your car (either higher compression bottom end work for running N/A OR a low compression, turbo setup). Also, for many cams, you'll need to upgrade other valvetrain components to be safe. The stock valvetrain can't handle too much abuse.

I see most people using adjustable cam gears just for looks at this point. If you're a really compentent tuner, you can probably eek some more power from your car if you have cams with a really aggressive profile, or if you've decked your block/head, you can use them to correct for misaligned timing. Other than that... there are better ways to get power.

Torque: I know this is probably a newbier question, but what can be done to increase just the raw torque?

Why? Like I said, raw torque isn't necessarily a good thing... in any case, torque will increase naturally with total engine power, but there are some things you can do to just increase torque (i.e. stroker kit, etc.)

Header: Ususally when planning to turbo a car, people don't consider headers. The whole idea of rear mounting a turbo is that I wont lose the 40% engine power like most turbo'ed cars. I want to to be able to push 25-30psi of boost without taking a single hp off the engine. That said, mounting a header normally, at least one where each pipe coming off the engine is the same length, is almost like a ghetto super-charger. Each pipe being the same length allowing each chamber to totally dispel all exhaust out of the chamber. Would that effect/increase when my turbo starts to spool?

No... that's nothing like a supercharger... that's like a weird rear-mounted turbosystem. I don't know where you got that 40% engine power loss figure from, but I assure you, it isn't true. Turbochargers increase overall efficiency and power - there are no two ways about it... those are the facts.

I hope you've dropped this rear-mounted turbo idea by now...

The reason most people don't consider headers are because they're replaced by the turbo-specific exhaust manifold in a conventional turbosystem.

Fuel Injectors: Can Fuel Injectors be controlled with something like DSMlink? Or will I pretty much forced to replace the fuel injectors to compensate for the extra displacement/turbo

I know, it's been said already, but DSMLink is not compatible with 420A cars. You should read GSGoinFast's guide to building a 420A turbosystem (How to Build a 420A Turbosystem for under $1000), and use the fuel setup he's outlined there for now. Most people start with just the stock injectors and an FMU... that's good for about 8psi of boost. Once you've got that, and everything's running good, you can start exploring other options for fuel. For anything more than 16psi of boost, Hahn's PortFueler or Megasquirt are pretty much your only options.

Helical: Makes both my wheels move at the same time? Is this something I'm going to want to invest in?

Limited slip differentials are excellent mods since they help solve some of those traction problems associated with FWD cars. The Quaife LSD is really the only useable LSD for our cars out there at this time... unfortunately, it has a $1,250 price tag. OBX helical LSDs are crap... don't buy one. PhantomGrip "LSDs" aren't real LSDs and should also be avoided. Exile Racing Technologies makes an LSD "Retrofit" that works similarly as a PhantomGrip, but it doesn't risk damage to your tranny like the PG.

CV joints/axels: I'm assuming they make, like, high-quality 500whp joints/shafts. Out of curiousity, would running a boosted like 500whp+ 9-10 sec quarter mile snap stock axels?

My opinion on this is, make a 350WHP/13.5s car before you worry about big mods like these. Axles are extraordinarily expensive, and your stuck with only a couple of brands to choose from. Raxles and Fidanza make good axles, but they're probably not good for more than 350WHP or so. Driveshaft Shop can make some outstanding axles good for up to 800WHP, but again, they're expensive, and not worth buying before you get to the stage where you absolutely need them.

Transmission: Would I be straight with, like, a new racing clutch? Or when I'm hp like that, is a new transmission something I'm going to need to consider? Seriously consider?

There aren't a whole lot of transmission mods out there unless you go the custom route, in which case, you're on your own.

You will need a good clutch, though. South Bend Clutches or SPEC (maybe? I've heard of people having a lot of problems with SPEC) make pretty good clutches. Make sure you get a 420A/Eclipse-specific modular clutch. You'll need to contact a representative from either company to figure out what's best for you. South Bend will do custom work if requested.

Traction: Besides racing slicks or converting the car to all wheel drive, whats the best way to maintain traction when drastically increasing the hp like so?

Slicks and an LSD are pretty much all you can do here...

DSMlink: A carputer, either mounted in my glove-box or trunk, has been in the plans for a long time. I've also been thinking about going as far as mounting, like, a powerhouse full sized computer in the spare tire well and running my power button, CD drive and USB ports to the front of the car and mounting the in the dash so I can use/watch/burn CDs and DvDs without having to even access the computer. Then mounting the LCD screen either where the center vents are or, leading to my next question:

While you can't use DSMLink, a built-in computer wouldn't go completely unused. If you're into all that flashy carputer/LCD sreen/DVD player stuff, then you can at least use the system to run Megasquirt when you're ready for it.

Passenger Airbag Mods: I dont see much about this, but the passenger airbag gives alot of room to work with. I realize the space that the airbag comes out is only the size of like an old PS2 (right?) But isnt that more then enough to mount a hide-away LCD screen on like an actuator with a swivel head or something? What kind of DSM passenger airbag mods have people seen/heard of?

Ok... you're going to have to start posting questions like these in the Appearance/Exterior/Interior forums.



Now, again, I mean no offense, but please do yourself a favor and do a lot of research before just diving in. Much of what you said shows me you don't know too much about these cars (or cars in general), and you risk doing some serious damage to your beloved Eclipse if you modify things blindly.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Also, up to 40% is what I should have said. 15-40%, either way, turbos rob real horsepower and replace it with fake, forced hp. Even though its really really powerful forced hp, its forced none the less.

And is 170whp the best anyones gotten with a 420A w/o turbo period, displacement tweaked or not? Or is 170whp the best anyones ever gotten w/ just a 2.0?

~~ZaK Kapua

That doesn't make sense. Horsepower is horsepower... there's no such thing as "fake forced horsepower." I think what you mean is that if the compressor side of the turbo were disconnected, net horsepower would decrease due to the obstruction in the exhaust flow. That's unavoidable, and it's just how turbos work... the overall gain from turbos is much greater than the loss, which is why they're such a good power-adder for low displacement cars.

170WHP is the best for a 2.0L N/A 420A. The displacement wasn't changed, just the compression (different pistons and a milled head).

People have gotten far more than 170WHP with turbocharged 2.0Ls. Think more along the lines of 600WHP.

 

[Metapharstic]

You can also replace your short block with a factory-stroked 2.4L 420A block from Cirruses, Stratuses, etc.. You really need to know what you're doing, though. It's a huge project that involves a lot of custom fabrication. You can't just jump in and expect to learn along the way.

Factory stroked 420A? Or Bored? Is it the same block as our 420A's with more vertical displacement? Or, like, is it a 420A block with totally different internals? How many people have actually swapped for the 2.4 block?

Your block was blown? How? What happened? I suggest you pulling apart your block, then taking it to a reputable machine shop to look it over. Most times, they'll inspect for free if you're a prospective customer. There are so many things that can determine whether or not your block is useable... you need an expert to investigate, or at least have a better idea of what went wrong.

He blew the engine because he didn't have a cat? You're going to have to explain that one...

Awesome idea, I don't know entirely if it was more the block or the head, obviously, probably the head since it was what they replaced. The kid's dad, the guy I bought the car off of, was an idiot, he could hardly answer 1/2 my questions. As far as I understand, he cut out the cat and ran a straight pipe, there was to much decompression, and I dont really know, what would happen? I'm kind of confused now too thinking back. What happened? Exhaust/unburnt fuel got trapped/combusted and cracked the head some how? Thats pretty much my reason for concern towards my block, not knowing exactally went wrong.

If you still decide you want to do a stroker kit... there's the Howell Kit which gives you 2.2L, then there's the 2.4L block which obviously gives you 2.4L. I've even heard of some people getting custom parts machined to further stroke the 2.4L to give them 2.7L, but that's pretty rare.

"heard" of people custom stroking the cloud car blocks? Wouldnt you just be able to buy a stroke kit for the 2.4 420A, like for a stratus or something?

You're just asking for trouble if you insist on rear-mounting it.

Haha, I know dude. It is kind of a childish dream, and really not as important as my displacement questions. Its just, if I'm going to rebuild and turbo this car, I'd prefer to do it right. And not saying "right" as in "rear mounting a turbo is the only way to correctly turbo a car," I mean "right" more along the lines of "Yea, a turbo manifold is the easiest way to turbo a car, but I dont want to rebuild my engine, swap out a whole bunch of performance parts, bolt a turbo to my exhaust manifold, only to find out I'm stuck at an 11.3 with a perfect launch, shifting at 7,200RPM w/o taking my foot off the gas." My best friend drives a badass all-motor z24 that runs mid 14s. I felt the diffrence before and after, when he installed his performance header(each pipe=same length). And I'm not trying to make it sound like I'm focusing on a header. I'm just saying, with an unbiased opinion, mounting a turbo in your exhaust, having a long/custom intake made, taking the time to run your oil and coolant lines, finding a place to mount your intercooler, and bolting a nice header to the engine would, yea, be a massive pain in the ass I'm sure. But I know a fair amount about engines, and just in theory a rear mounted turbo makes alot of sense, but when it actually comes down to it, just getting all the turbo parts out of the heat of the engine bay and being able to run a header sounds worth it alone. But at the same time, I bet in reality it is a HUGE trial of head and back aches, and a pretty penny, to rear mount a turbo. But obviously people wouldn't bother with it if it didnt work. And there wouldnt be hundreds of people that SWEAR by it if it wasnt better, performance wise, then a normal turbo set-up.

You should read GSGoinFast's guide to building a 420A turbosystem (How to Build a 420A Turbosystem for under $1000), and use the fuel setup he's outlined there for now.

Done and done, well, not yet, but I'm looking forward to checking it out after I'm done writing this.

(to passenger airbag mods) Ok... you're going to have to start posting questions like these in the Appearance/Exterior/Interior forums.

Good call, I didnt think I could post there yet though.

do a lot more research before you buy anything

Thats the plan, haha. I wouldnt have spent so much time typing my first post if I wasnt serious. I probably would have just given my car to one of our local turbo shops and came back a month later to pick up my 10 second eclipse and $12k parts and labor bill. ;P

That doesn't make sense. Horsepower is horsepower... there's no such thing as "fake forced horsepower."

Horsepower is a measurement, and the hp you gain off a turbo, is yes, fake. You're only making, maximum, as much hp as your engine can create anywhere in your powerband. Anything on top of that, you're only going to get your gain as long as your turbo is cramming air into your engine. You wouldn't say someone's engine running a turbo that can push 30psi is making 500hp. The engine is only really making 200hp, turbo gains are temporary. Boost isnt fake, you're right. I dont consider the hp you get from your turbo the same as the hp your engine makes, though. A turbo is just a self-powered way to get more push out of something that couldn't usually make it. Like, a cheap trick that works hella good.

While you can't use DSMLink, a built-in computer wouldn't go completely unused. If you're into all that flashy carputer/LCD sreen/DVD player stuff, then you can at least use the system to run Megasquirt when you're ready for it.

Computers are the closest thing I have to a hobby, and anyone that knows stresses my excellence =) I'd love to mount a totally unique setup, stuff a little touchscreen LCD right where my deck/install kit fill up my dash, run all my music from my mp3 collection I have stored on on a computer, and run a DvD/CD burner to my dash and mount it somewhere so I can read/burn CD/DvDs without having to leave the drivers seat. That would be hawt =)

 

[delta448]

Horsepower is a measurement, and the hp you gain off a turbo, is yes, fake. You're only making, maximum, as much hp as your engine can create anywhere in your powerband. Anything on top of that, you're only going to get your gain as long as your turbo is cramming air into your engine. You wouldn't say someone's engine running a turbo that can push 30psi is making 500hp.

Nothing about turbocharged horsepower is fake or a cheap trick. You wouldn't say a 8 second turbo'd 5.0 stang is only making 225 hp would you? -That's what they had from the factory. -Or does it not count if you add heads, cams, headers, intake and exhaust... and just keep it N/A? Forced induction does the same thing adding those parts does, it increases airflow.

The engine is only really making 200hp, turbo gains are temporary.

Turbo gains are only temporary if you plan to remove the turbo system. When you turbocharge, the engine and turbo become one system and work together. You hit certain rpm and the turbo spools. It's a stretch, but you could almost think of it like a variable valve timing system. Not always active, but always mechanically available.

Boost isnt fake, you're right. I dont consider the hp you get from your turbo the same as the hp your engine makes, though.

Airlfow determines power, both turbos and superchargers increase airflow. There is no horsepower "made" by a turbo, the piston in the cylinder does that -and does it in direct proportion to the airflow.

A turbo is just a self-powered way to get more push out of something that couldn't usually make it. Like, a cheap trick that works hella good

Self-powered, not really, -exhaust powered. That's why turbos increase efficiency of an engine, not just in power but gas mileage too. They don't use power to make power like a supercharger -which robs a little crankshaft hp to spin the pulleys/gears. There certainly insn't any 40% loss anywhere, possibly a 40% gain though.

 

[Metapharstic]

Hawt

delta448, I understand the mechanics of a turbo/super charger(Hawt), but I get your point.

Ugh, salty.

So what is everyone insinuating? Drop my ideas and just turbo the car as cheap as possible? Hawt. This isnt a car I want to use as a daily driver, I really would like to spend the time and money to just do everything once. I dont want to spend years slowly building onto this car, its going into storage this week, I want to spend months purchasing parts so I'll never have to worry about upgrading. Hawt. The only thing I want to ever have to worry about after this is maintenance and cosmetics. The point of this thread is so I can gain understanding on exactally what I want to do. I dont have a time or money restriction, at least not all in a solid bulk, and I appreciate the critical honesty, but really, for example, if I'm asking questions on rear-mounting turbos(Hawt), why wouldn't you post with insight on how to do it? Or point me towards other posters that have asked about it before, or even better, done it themselves? I'm sure a good amount of the people that post here own DSMs that they drive everyday. I feel like people feel intimidated because I want to sit down and understand what I need to do to put my Eclipse in the top 1% of the top 1% of these 420A DSMs. Hawt. And I'm salty to see the poor amount of support I've received so far. I wrote my first post thinking I'd get tons of feedback, answers, and good ideas. I've learned a few small details from the limited amount of replies I've received so far, but I've had more people shooting down my ideas then helping me find resources left from people that have already done what I want to do.

 

[WMD]

I've had more people shooting down my ideas then helping me find resources left from people that have already done what I want to do.

Isnt that the point of this board? Most of what can be done to our cars is already archived at this site or at 2gnt. Also its the rules to use the search function befor creating a new thread. Plus people are giving you a hard time because you are saying things about "fake horsepower," and other stuff.

You want ideas on how to turbo your 2gnt, well you could:
Put on a rear mounted turbo
Bolt up a 14b to the stock manifold
Or get a new mani and go from there.

If there is a new way to get exhaust gas to a turbo, hell I want to know.

I cant tell you how many ump-teen hours I spent reading in the archives inorder to learn about these cars, you should do the same.

 

[delta448]

but really, for example, if I'm asking questions on rear-mounting turbos(Hawt), why wouldn't you post with insight on how to do it? Or point me towards other posters that have asked about it before, or even better, done it themselves?

Please let me ask; why do you want to rear mount the turbo? You will likely have a good deal more lag with that setup. The exhaust has a higher temperature, and therefore higher pressure, closer to the cylinder head. Plus you'll be running a shitload more piping to get the charge to your throttle body, so pressure drop and loss of efficency. And what about the WG signal traveling all the way to the rear of the car? It'd be more likely to overspin the turbo and probably cause issues with surging. I don't see the logic in that.

I'm salty to see the poor amount of support I've received so far. I wrote my first post thinking I'd get tons of feedback, answers, and good ideas. I've learned a few small details from the limited amount of replies I've received so far, but I've had more people shooting down my ideas then helping me find resources left from people that have already done what I want to do.

If I've been too critical I apologize. I just get a little offended and impatient with you when you say things like "turbocharged horsepower is fake horsepower" and "I wont lose the 40% engine power like most turbo'ed cars". You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about what you are about to attempt with your car. Why don't you give us some more specific questions and we will try to help you.

 

[4UH8ERS]

the only reason you get ragged is becuase you say you have searched extensivly and know about cars, but yet you state that cams control the throtte body and that turbos produce fake horsepower. comments like that KEEP PEOPLE FORM TAKING YOU SERIOUS.

now on topic. The problem with your rear mount idea is that there are no benefits from it.
its more costly, theres plenty of room in the engine bay, the turbo is open to the elements and more likely to get damaged by getting rear ended or chipped by a rock or speed bump ect, it still will not be hidden unlike on the cobras where they make twins that mount aside the transmission. you will recieve less power becuase turbos produce heat energy and you only lose that as you near the rear of the exhaust. just some food for thought. goodluck with your future plans.

 

[Blitzeclips]

The rear-mount turbo idea is good, but very unrealistic. It would require more time, money, and EXTREME fabrication than you may realize. I doubt anyone wants to sit here and explain the reasoning to you behind that, because if you can't figure it out for yourself, then you probably shouldn't even consider the project in general.

You will need to know about these things if you actually do the turbo conversion. Otherwise, you'll end up at your local shop every other day because of a minor problem. You will not learn everything there is to know in one thread.
If you don'tlike what you are hearing then go ask someone else. Don't get all pissy mad about it either man...
Good luck with everything.

 

[bullettdsm]

My my my, I'm weary from just reading this!

Zak,
In all honesty you do bring up some questions to deal with, unfortunately they are all in the same post (where brevity should be at a premium). As Blitz said you got some awfully good breakdown of answers to your questions. I know you may not have liked the answers but there they are. I think what you are seeing is frustration and not anger. it's almost like an ADD thread, kind of jumping all over the place .

I too spent some time searching on this site before my first post (about 4 months). But that should have told you that shooting all these ideas out at once is going to scatter your information. Just the rear turbo thing alone, should have had it's own thread.

I know this isn't exactly on topic but I thought it would help to keep a guy with "out of the box" concepts from jumping out of the game. With out of the box thinking, sometimes only time will tell if you are a fool or a genius (or some kind of crap like that )

MB

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Sorry about the deleted/edited posts guys... I have to try to keep this thread somewhat in order.

Zak, I have to tell you, I'm a little offended... more than a couple people here on these forums, myself included, have sat down and spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions. The response we got back was "Tsk, actually, a moderator may as well drop this thread since help is looking grim."

Please feel free to do anything you wish to do to your car. We're just telling you what we know... and what we know, is what works, and what works well. If you have gobs of money and time to to spend on a project that may very well never produce any appreciable gains over a more conventional setup, then by all meants, go for it! In fact, if you do discover something useful for our community, then we will be indebted to you for doing such. However, in the meantime, know that we simply cannot help you very much design a system that we ourselves have never experimented with. Furthermore, as I'm sure you know, we cannot be held liable should your car be damaged.

My only advice to you is to keep researching... you can never have enough information.

 

[Metapharstic]

*cringes* Haha... alright,

the only reason you get ragged is becuase you say you have searched extensivly and know about cars, but yet you state that cams control the throtte body and that turbos produce fake horsepower. comments like that KEEP PEOPLE FORM TAKING YOU SERIOUS.

Yea, I know as much now, haha.

it still will not be hidden unlike on the cobras where they make twins that mount aside the transmission.

Is it possible to mount a turbo at the end of an exhaust manifold rather than on it?

The rear-mount turbo idea is good, but very unrealistic. It would require more time, money, and EXTREME fabrication than you may realize.

Yea, I pretty much get the point. I'm not as worried about it as I was, I understand it would take alot more time and work then its probably worth. I'd prefer to spend time/money getting parts fabricated for a 2.4 block swap then I would getting 95% custom work done for a turbo that is going to make the same amount of power regardless of where its at.

Don't get all pissy mad about it either man...

Salty, not pissy.

I too spent some time searching on this site before my first post (about 4 months).

*bites knuckle* I'll admit, I didn't spend 4 months. Maybe two weekends of free time at best. And that still obviously wasn't near enough ;P

Sorry about the deleted/edited posts guys... I have to try to keep this thread somewhat in order.

Eek, I'm glad I haven't have time to check this till right now, then =\

Zak, I have to tell you, I'm a little offended

*cringe*

We're just telling you what we know... and what we know, is what works, and what works well.

Yea, I know. From your guy's end, I probably look ignorant and stubborn, but really, positive or negative, all the feedback really has helped. I know what I'm trying to do, I just, like, don't really know how I'm going about it. I'm pretty sure if I hadn't come to this forum first, I probably would have dove head in to a project I may have abandoned or never finished.

If you have gobs of money and time to to spend on a project that may very well never produce any appreciable gains over a more conventional setup, then by all meants, go for it!

Well said.

However, in the meantime, know that we simply cannot help you very much design a system that we ourselves have never experimented with.

Haha, I think thats what I was pretty much expecting at first. =(

My only advice to you is to keep researching... you can never have enough information.

Never =)

That being said, really, the only questions off the top of my head are regarding, like I asked a few quotes up, a turbo at the end of your exhaust manifold, and from one of my previous posts, asking about the ability to use stroke kits, for example, for a 2.4 neon, on a (previously)2.0 420A that was swapped with the 2.4 block.

Also, I understand the ... higher(?) the compression, the higher horsepower. I'm assuming more displacement+higher compression=higher horsepower? Is there any limit to the amount of compression vs. the amount of displacement? Like, offhand, do/can 5.0L 8 cylinder mustangs run the same amount of compression as a 2.0L 4 cylinder? And how does compression work with turbos?

Also, this isn't huge, but last night I was racing someone in the Eclipse and I totally lost my power steering. I'm pretty sure it went out at the top of first or second, I was reving hard, I havent gotten a chance to look and see what happened yet because its been raining hard for the last 2-3 days, but I'm pretty sure my power steering belt must have slipped off, sound familiar to anyone?

~~ZaK

 

[cs82685]

That being said, really, the only questions off the top of my head are regarding, like I asked a few quotes up, a turbo at the end of your exhaust manifold, and from one of my previous posts, asking about the ability to use stroke kits, for example, for a 2.4 neon, on a (previously)2.0 420A that was swapped with the 2.4 block.

Also, I understand the ... higher(?) the compression, the higher horsepower. I'm assuming more displacement+higher compression=higher horsepower? Is there any limit to the amount of compression vs. the amount of displacement? Like, offhand, do/can 5.0L 8 cylinder mustangs run the same amount of compression as a 2.0L 4 cylinder? And how does compression work with turbos?

Also, this isn't huge, but last night I was DRIVING in the Eclipse and I totally lost my power steering. I'm pretty sure it went out at the top of first or second, I havent gotten a chance to look and see what happened yet because its been raining hard for the last 2-3 days, but I'm pretty sure my power steering belt must have slipped off, sound familiar to anyone?

~~ZaK

People usually lower compression when turbocharging. Also as far as I understand, a stroker is going to give you more power early on, but you're not going to be able to rev as high, or something like that. Also that last part is going to be deleted b/c it's very frowned upon if you have yet to discover that

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Right... stroker kits mean the piston is moving a greater distance per engine revolution. When you break that down, it means each piston is moving significantly faster than in a non-stroked engine. That increased piston speed prevents you from revving really high, because the pistons would just be moving too fast. That's another reason I stayed away from stroker kits... like I said before, I think top end power is really important for a FWD car, and a stroker kit bascially limits how much power you can make up there. I'd rather take top end power over bottom end power any day.

And about the compression... most people use low compression (8.8:1 or so) for turbocharged cars. It all has to do with avoiding knock. High compression ratios (even up to 10.5:1) provide more power, and the can be used with boosted cars, but you're going to need to run something like methanol or water injection to prevent knock when you're under boost. Beyond that, you'll have to rely on good tuning...

Brian (DR1665) always says every point of compression ratio (i.e. 8.5:1 to 9.5:1) is worth 4% of horsepower. When choosing your compression ratio, decide whether or not just 4% worth of horsepower is worth having to constantly struggle with knock.

 

[Locke]

High piston speeds cannot be avoided when stroking an engine. Although lightweight pistons and forged rods will help take the shock, allowing you to again raise your limit. At the same time, stroked engines tend to have less friendly rod angles, which are not good on cylinders and increase the likelihood of slap. Long rods will bring the rod angle back into check, but with the increased dwell, again comes higher piston speeds.

Shorter strokes reduce piston speed, thus allowing you to spin the engine faster. Since horsepower is a function of torque and rpm, the faster you spin the engine, the more HP you will make, assuming you are still making torque at high rpms. Our only options for small strokes are keeping what we already have, or getting the crank offset ground, which is not cheap. Offset grinding will require your sourcing new rods from another vehicle that will fit your new, smaller, rod journals. Headache.

Some guys love their stroked 420a, while some prefer to push. the limits and spin it fast.
Paul has a point though.. we are traction limited to begin with