420A Which is better for upgrading the turbo. 420A or 4G63

[dsmdragon]

Hey guys I need to know if I should keep my 98 RS or get rid of it and get a 98 GSX. Why I'm asking this is because I need to know if the 4g63 is better for a turbo then a 420a, and which would be easier to upgrade?

I know that a car already with a turbo is easier in many ways to just upgrade the little things which gives you more HP. And the N/T with the same gives you some but not as much. So I'm at a point where I need someone to share with me there no-it all about this and what would be better in the long run?

 

[BigRand]

honestly dude, its a choice your going to have to make. Most people will swear by the 4g63, as do I,but I do know people who wish they could have kept their 420a turbo. But really man its all the same headace in the end.

Its really about your own preferences and goals. It also depends what you have done to your car already and can afford to give up. I'll tell you right now that I dont' see myself giving up the car that I built unless an EVo 9 came along. But that is just how I feel. I am looking for an AWD 1g, 2g or Galant vr-4 to add to my DSM collection though, but giving this one up just isn't an option for right now.

 

[dsmdragon]

I see, well the things like All wheel drive are the big plus. i like that the gsx already has a turbo set-up and that the ecu is already made to support the turbo. but that is where my noledge on the two motors stops, besides there both 4cyl. motors and same body type.

would you thing that upgrading the motor of a already turbo car would be cheeper or more.

 

[bullettdsm]

Um.....is this a rhetorical question?

I own a 97 RS and a 94 AWD. My favorite by far is the RS. My fastest by far is the AWD. The easiest to upgrade/turbo would be the AWD. The most comfortable and fun is the RS. The quickest would be the AWD (4 wheels down). The prettiest would be the RS.

Better is a tough word (Clintonesque "it depends on what the meaning of better is"). Better, as in easier to upgrade turbo? the GSX. You've got AWD vs FWD. You've got a car with an existing turbo set-up. Easier to make power with the AWD.

IDK, it seems a little subjective. Like Rand said, it's up to your parameters.

Does that help ?

MB

 

[1.8laser90]

Um.....is this a rhetorical question?

I own a 97 RS and a 94 AWD. My favorite by far is the RS. My fastest by far is the AWD. The easiest to upgrade/turbo would be the AWD. The most comfortable and fun is the RS. The quickest would be the AWD (4 wheels down). The prettiest would be the RS.

Better is a tough word (Clintonesque "it depends on what the meaning of better is"). Better, as in easier to upgrade turbo? the GSX. You've got AWD vs FWD. You've got a car with an existing turbo set-up. Easier to make power with the AWD.

IDK, it seems a little subjective. Like Rand said, it's up to your parameters.

Does that help ?

MB

well said i think

 

[selmerguy]

I own a built 97 rs turbo and a 92 awd talon. I bought my talon for 700 bucks and put about 1200 into it. It is twice as fast as my 5000 dollar rs with about 5000 in it. If you want speed and the easy way go with the GSX. Try this, go find the fastest 4g63 and compare it to the fastest 420'a. I would bet that they both have the same amount on money in them give or take alittle.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

I agree, Sam. Initially, the factory turbo'd car will definitely be easier to upgrade and tune. However, if you're going for big numbers, the costs and effort start to even out as you need to replace internal engine components, upgrade the turbosystem, and find a good method of manipulating fuel and spark.

 

[selmerguy]

The bottom line is it all depends on how fast you want to go, if the quater mile is what you want to do. My plans for my 92 are to make it a 350+hp street car. I want to be able to autoX and other cool driving stuff too. So for that I really want the AWD which only comes with the 4g63, for Dsm's that is.

So here is the best thing to know. There have been many 4g63's over the 300hp mark with stock internals and very basic fuel setups(walbro, AFPR, and SAFC) To my knowledge there have been only 2 420's with stock internals make over 300 hp and they had standalone EMS(expensive) and I think both the motors only lasted a season. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[cs82685]

The bottom line is it all depends on how fast you want to go, if the quater mile is what you want to do. My plans for my 92 are to make it a 350+hp street car. I want to be able to autoX and other cool driving stuff too. So for that I really want the AWD which only comes with the 4g63, for Dsm's that is.

So here is the best thing to know. There have been many 4g63's over the 300hp mark with stock internals and very basic fuel setups(walbro, AFPR, and SAFC) To my knowledge there have been only 2 420's with stock internals make over 300 hp and they had standalone EMS(expensive) and I think both the motors only lasted a season. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

umm, I don't know both the ones you are talking about, but awddynamite never blew his motor, he just dropped in a built one, and he also wasn't on a standalone, of course the portfueler is the next best bet to a complete standalone for our cars.

Mark (bullettdsm) said it best. If I was you and didn't have much into the RS, I would sell it and get a gsx, 1g or 2g would just depend on how deep your pockets were. For me, I had too much into my car and I knew I would get shit for it if I sold it, so I turbocharged it, that and I love it too much to get rid of. I'm planning on getting an evo 9 come summer time, but I will still hold onto my RS, it was my first car and I always see how my dad wishes he still had his first car (but that was a built 68 gto that ran 10's and was stolen and found stripped then send to the crusher) and I don't want to sell it to some punk that screws it up and 20 years later wish I still had it. Maybe one day I'll be ready to let go, but it's not gonna be soon.

If you're looking for cheap and quick, get a 1g gsx, if you want a sexy 2g that may or may not withstand a little boost and will be slower, then turbo your RS.

 

[dr1665]

I love these "Which is better" threads. They're so subjective!

We all want fast cars. We all want good looking cars. Some of us are lucky enough to have both. Unless you're drag racing all the damn time (possibly making money as advertising for your business in the process) you really don't need much more than 350hp at the crank. Think about it - Aside from super exotics, how many cars can you think of that are out there on the street in your town with more than 350hp? Typically, getting to that point makes you one of the fastest cars on the street. So what if you're the lowest powered of something like a dozen other enthusiasts on the quarterly, group dyno day? If you're into drag racing, you can do wonders for your time just by practicing and getting your launch down.

I guess what I'm saying is, unless you're building a full-on drag car, you're going to be quite happy having anything between 300-400hp on tap on the street. Yes, it's cheaper to get there with a 4G63, but if you've already got the 420A and it's in decent shape, I'd suggest building that. It will cost you a bit more, but the process is just as rewarding as the results.

IMO, the only real reason to get a 4G63 car is for the AWD. Sure, you might make 600hp for the price of 400hp, TSi to ESi, but good luck hooking that up at the track. You want to have your custom-made wheelie bar hanging off your rear bumper on your way to work just in case some stroke wants to go from a dig?

I come from both sides of the track as well. Fully built all motor 2GNT (daily driver) and mostly stock GVR4 (rally). I suggest you think about how you will spend the most of your seat time in this car and go from there.

 

[ninjai_ruken]

Both Motor's 420A and 4G63 piss me off! ...Like everyone else said, its your choice. And I also agree with dr1. But in my opinion when working on and tunning a motor no matter what motor you working on they will all give you a headache in the end....My Mini Sprint Car is Pissing me the #### off!

 

[lilbayz311]

i am in the proccess of rebuilding my 97 eclipse 420a n/t engine and i have found that it isnt cheep. ive done tonz of interenet shopping and have found numerous times cheaper parts for 4g63 than 420a. for example a clutch, our cars have modular clutches and a paid 700$ for a clutchmasters stage 4 clutch when if i had a 4g63, i could have just re-used the old flywheel and paid 200$ less for the same clutch. 1/2 month after i went turbo my clutch was pretty much gone. 3/4 month after i went turbo pushing 10psi boost my engine blew up. so originally i paid 3,500$ for turbo kit wit fmic for my car and less than a month later i am throwing another 5k into it (excluding labor) to make it handle more boost and have a lot of the upgrades ive always wanted. now my only problem will be getting all my power to the ground. i bought a phantom grip differential to prevent only one wheel from spinning at a time to help(wouldnt nessicarily be needed with awd) i only paid 4500$ for the whole car. now im not saying that to rebuild your engine will take 5k, all you really need is pistons, rods, head gasket, head studs, and supply fuel for more boost since nobody rebuilds their stock engine just to run the same boost they were runnin before. but when your engine blows, it is such a great opperunity to put in new camshafts/cam gears, springs/retainers, valves, transmission differential, clutch, msd ignition, new bov etc.. etc.. , my point is, excluding that the 2g's look way better, if it is speed that you really want, sell your car and get a cheeper 4g63 with all wheel drive. peace out

 

[dr1665]

i am in the proccess of rebuilding my 97 eclipse 420a n/t engine and i have found that it isnt cheep.

Rebuilding either engine isn't cheap. Pistons and rods for either engine will run you damn near the exact same cost. The cost benefit comes from the 4G63 being able to handle more boost on stock internals before it goes.

for example a clutch, our cars have modular clutches and a paid 700$ for a clutchmasters stage 4 clutch when if i had a 4g63, i could have just re-used the old flywheel and paid 200$ less for the same clutch. 1/2 month after i went turbo my clutch was pretty much gone.

I'm sorry you didn't do more research. Most 2GNT owners will tell you that a CM clutch is a bad idea. I've also heard Spec is a no-no too. Your best bet for a performance clutch for your high-horsepower 420A is South Bend Clutch in Indiana. They custom make clutches. The top tier models will still be pricey, but they have been holding up well in the aftermarket.

3/4 month after i went turbo pushing 10psi boost my engine blew up.

Which is why HRC advises no more than 7psi on stock internals. I've know people to go almost two years running 10psi through that set up while stock, internally, but it's all in the tuning and how much abuse the engine sees. Had you stayed within the commonly known safety range, I'm sure you'd still be running around with that engine.

i am throwing another 5k into it (excluding labor) to make it handle more boost and have a lot of the upgrades ive always wanted.

Wait. You're paying $5k for parts alone? Holy shit! You better be getting the best of the best of the best AND labor for that. I don't care what kind of reputation this shop has or how many kids the LDS shop owner has or how many other families they're supporting on the side. $5,000 should get you a fully built 420A with the ALL the options ready to be installed - by you - so you can be able to maintain your own car at those performance levels.

i bought a phantom grip differential to prevent only one wheel from spinning at a time to help(wouldnt nessicarily be needed with awd)

Those PGLSDs make my skin crawl. Before you install that thing, be sure to go over to Neons.org and search about them. You will need to have some welding done and/or safing brackets installed on the diff before you put any power through that thing or don't say we didn't warn you. When those things nuke a tranny, there's no fixing it. You have to replace everything.

all you really need is pistons, rods, head gasket, head studs, and supply fuel for more boost since nobody rebuilds their stock engine just to run the same boost they were runnin before.

Close. Although you really SHOULD replace all the bearings, all the gaskets, and the water and oil pumps.

when your engine blows, it is such a great opperunity to . . . etc.. etc..

This is true, but it's always preferable to have everything new ready to drop in when the old goes tits up on you. Ask any DSMer around here and they'll agree - The less down time, the better.

my point is, excluding that the 2g's look way better, if it is speed that you really want, sell your car and get a cheeper 4g63 with all wheel drive. peace out

My point is, more valuable than the list of your mods is the time you spend installing them yourself. In order to be able to do that, you need to do your homework. If you just copy someone's mod list or just buy the most expensive parts you can find and have some shop install it all for you, you're just pushing back the inevitable, which is you running your investment into the ground.

Consider how you will drive the car the most, determine your performance goals, do your homework on how to best achieve those goals, then make the informed purchases and do things right the first time.

If you think having a 12 second 4G63 car is going to be cheap, let me be the first to remind you that it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be that cheap. If you want an easy 12 second car, EITHER WAY, it's going to cost you. The guys on this forum running 12s in "mostly stock" AWD cars did not just bolt up some cheap parts and make this happen over a weekend. If they did it on the stock turbo, you better believe they spent some serious time tuning their cars (by themselves) and practicing their runs. If they didn't do a lot of practice, then keep in mind how much things like big turbos ($1000+), serious intercoolers ($700+), serious fuel systems ($1000+) and serious tuning ($1000+ for DSMlink and dyno time) cost.

Peace out, indeed. Roots that grow underground are as big as the tree. I have a buddy with lots of boosted 420A experience who lives south of Draper (SLC) if you want me to get you in touch with him. He could use a partner in crime up that way, imo.

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[dsmdragon]

alrighty then so much on the two motors. Well I'm am going with a gsx because of the turbo set-up and because I can use it for drag and for drift. In all you are right (all of you) its up to you and your wallet. the gsx has what I am looking for and thanks I'll go with that and am soon. I have one more ? does anyone know the compression for the 4g63 and if the stock fuel pump can handle 16 psi with a knew wire kit? :/

 

[BigRand]

Well now you need to start searching, because both of those questions could have been answered in about 2min worth of searching. watch.........................................................................................................................................................2min later......95-99 2g 4g63 pistions = 8:5:1, 89-94 1g 4g63 pistions = 7:6:1.............searching again..............1min later...................stock fuel pump on the 4g63 goes tits up at 16psi, so you'll want to replace that along with an FPR, and don't forget the stock turbo on a 2g doesn't like seeing anything over 20psi once you do get your fuel mods and your GSX.

We respect your descion, just don't forget DSM's are DSM's, they both take time and effort, research and knowledge, and they are both a PITA at times, so be prepared.

 

[lilbayz311]

Rebuilding either engine isn't cheap. Pistons and rods for either engine will run you damn near the exact same cost. The cost benefit comes from the 4G63 being able to handle more boost on stock internals before it goes.


I'm sorry you didn't do more research. Most 2GNT owners will tell you that a CM clutch is a bad idea. I've also heard Spec is a no-no too. Your best bet for a performance clutch for your high-horsepower 420A is South Bend Clutch in Indiana. They custom make clutches. The top tier models will still be pricey, but they have been holding up well in the aftermarket.


Which is why HRC advises no more than 7psi on stock internals. I've know people to go almost two years running 10psi through that set up while stock, internally, but it's all in the tuning and how much abuse the engine sees. Had you stayed within the commonly known safety range, I'm sure you'd still be running around with that engine.


Wait. You're paying $5k for parts alone? Holy shit! You better be getting the best of the best of the best AND labor for that. I don't care what kind of reputation this shop has or how many kids the LDS shop owner has or how many other families they're supporting on the side. $5,000 should get you a fully built 420A with the ALL the options ready to be installed - by you - so you can be able to maintain your own car at those performance levels.


Those PGLSDs make my skin crawl. Before you install that thing, be sure to go over to Neons.org and search about them. You will need to have some welding done and/or safing brackets installed on the diff before you put any power through that thing or don't say we didn't warn you. When those things nuke a tranny, there's no fixing it. You have to replace everything.


Close. Although you really SHOULD replace all the bearings, all the gaskets, and the water and oil pumps.


This is true, but it's always preferable to have everything new ready to drop in when the old goes tits up on you. Ask any DSMer around here and they'll agree - The less down time, the better.


My point is, more valuable than the list of your mods is the time you spend installing them yourself. In order to be able to do that, you need to do your homework. If you just copy someone's mod list or just buy the most expensive parts you can find and have some shop install it all for you, you're just pushing back the inevitable, which is you running your investment into the ground.

Consider how you will drive the car the most, determine your performance goals, do your homework on how to best achieve those goals, then make the informed purchases and do things right the first time.

If you think having a 12 second 4G63 car is going to be cheap, let me be the first to remind you that it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be that cheap. If you want an easy 12 second car, EITHER WAY, it's going to cost you. The guys on this forum running 12s in "mostly stock" AWD cars did not just bolt up some cheap parts and make this happen over a weekend. If they did it on the stock turbo, you better believe they spent some serious time tuning their cars (by themselves) and practicing their runs. If they didn't do a lot of practice, then keep in mind how much things like big turbos ($1000+), serious intercoolers ($700+), serious fuel systems ($1000+) and serious tuning ($1000+ for DSMlink and dyno time) cost.

Peace out, indeed. Roots that grow underground are as big as the tree. I have a buddy with lots of boosted 420A experience who lives south of Draper (SLC) if you want me to get you in touch with him. He could use a partner in crime up that way, imo.

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i chose the clutch that i did over the 2 best 2gnt ones south bend clutch offered thank you.
i ran more psi than what hahn recommended becuase thats what any person with any need for speed would do once they put on a turbo. sure its fast but that craving of going faster never goes away. im sure 1 week after my cars all done this time ill still be looking for ways to make it faster. and plus i can afford to blow my engine up and buy all top of the line parts. im actually kind of glad i did. if i woulda cared about blowing my engine up than i woulda never turned the boost up its as simple as that. my mod list is actually pretty unique i dont know one person with everything i have or even close to actually. and i had help from my girlfriends 2 brothers who are full time mechanics who really know their shit. her dad used to own a local performance shop and they grew up working on motors their whole life. you would at least think i could get a little credit for at least being there and helping out on the whole project from start to finish instead of sending it to a shop and getting it back a week later hoping they did everything right. but instead dr just tries to make people look stupid to make himself look smart. and i dunno about everywhere else but around here, if you take it to any shop they charge 65$ an hour for lazy work. each place i have taken it to so far has done at least one thing wrong or charged me way to much for what they did. and none of them have the quality work of when you do something yourself

and with the 5k i am spending, that includes everything i have ever wanted for my car; inside and out. you cant tell my that you couldnt spend 5k on parts if you could make the ultimate list of everything you have ever dreamed of having for your car starting from the inside of your engine? my car is going to be tits when it is rebuilt straight up.

the only thing you said that was even the least bit useful to me was the thing about the differential that it could blow my transmission up and to tell you the truth i havent done any reading up on that her brother just recommended as a suggestion on how to get more of the power to the ground so i bought it.

 

[bryanwheat]

Rebuilding either engine isn't cheap. Pistons and rods for either engine will run you damn near the exact same cost. The cost benefit comes from the 4G63 being able to handle more boost on stock internals before it goes.


I'm sorry you didn't do more research. Most 2GNT owners will tell you that a CM clutch is a bad idea. I've also heard Spec is a no-no too. Your best bet for a performance clutch for your high-horsepower 420A is South Bend Clutch in Indiana. They custom make clutches. The top tier models will still be pricey, but they have been holding up well in the aftermarket.


Which is why HRC advises no more than 7psi on stock internals. I've know people to go almost two years running 10psi through that set up while stock, internally, but it's all in the tuning and how much abuse the engine sees. Had you stayed within the commonly known safety range, I'm sure you'd still be running around with that engine.


Wait. You're paying $5k for parts alone? Holy shit! You better be getting the best of the best of the best AND labor for that. I don't care what kind of reputation this shop has or how many kids the LDS shop owner has or how many other families they're supporting on the side. $5,000 should get you a fully built 420A with the ALL the options ready to be installed - by you - so you can be able to maintain your own car at those performance levels.


Those PGLSDs make my skin crawl. Before you install that thing, be sure to go over to Neons.org and search about them. You will need to have some welding done and/or safing brackets installed on the diff before you put any power through that thing or don't say we didn't warn you. When those things nuke a tranny, there's no fixing it. You have to replace everything.


Close. Although you really SHOULD replace all the bearings, all the gaskets, and the water and oil pumps.


This is true, but it's always preferable to have everything new ready to drop in when the old goes tits up on you. Ask any DSMer around here and they'll agree - The less down time, the better.


My point is, more valuable than the list of your mods is the time you spend installing them yourself. In order to be able to do that, you need to do your homework. If you just copy someone's mod list or just buy the most expensive parts you can find and have some shop install it all for you, you're just pushing back the inevitable, which is you running your investment into the ground.

Consider how you will drive the car the most, determine your performance goals, do your homework on how to best achieve those goals, then make the informed purchases and do things right the first time.

If you think having a 12 second 4G63 car is going to be cheap, let me be the first to remind you that it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be that cheap. If you want an easy 12 second car, EITHER WAY, it's going to cost you. The guys on this forum running 12s in "mostly stock" AWD cars did not just bolt up some cheap parts and make this happen over a weekend. If they did it on the stock turbo, you better believe they spent some serious time tuning their cars (by themselves) and practicing their runs. If they didn't do a lot of practice, then keep in mind how much things like big turbos ($1000+), serious intercoolers ($700+), serious fuel systems ($1000+) and serious tuning ($1000+ for DSMlink and dyno time) cost.

Peace out, indeed. Roots that grow underground are as big as the tree. I have a buddy with lots of boosted 420A experience who lives south of Draper (SLC) if you want me to get you in touch with him. He could use a partner in crime up that way, imo.

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Um, You guys are ate up, i don't really think that i saw a bit of correct information, like that 350 horses is plenty for the street. For a while it is ok, than it feels slow.

And as far as it not being cheap to get into the 12's. I run a low 12-high 11 in a 3 thousand dollor car. I paid 2 grand for my car, and i have a thousand dollors in upgrades. And it will rin a consistant low 12 second quater mile time all day long. ALL DAY.

On a 1g awd dsm, it takes very little to get into the 12's. Stock car, dsm link *
500), 650 injectors(200.00)exhaust(150), walbro 255(100) fpr(100)evoIII turbo(500) 2g maf(50) wideband(200.00) clutch(180) front mount with piping(250)um,. that looks like it, other than general maintnence, don't need slicks being that there is 4 wheel traction. Tuning it is easy as hell with dsmlink and a wideband, even a monkey could do it.

There is absolute no upside to keeking a 420a car over a 4g63 car when trying to make it fast, other than if you have full coverage on it, and you want to pay less pn insurance.

Stock 6 bolt 4g63 all stock internals, holds over 450 horsepower. Proven thousands of times.

 

[cs82685]

Um, You guys are ate up, i don't really think that i saw a bit of correct information, like that 350 horses is plenty for the street. For a while it is ok, than it feels slow.

And as far as it not being cheap to get into the 12's. I run a low 12-high 11 in a 3 thousand dollor car. I paid 2 grand for my car, and i have a thousand dollors in upgrades. And it will rin a consistant low 12 second quater mile time all day long. ALL DAY.

On a 1g awd dsm, it takes very little to get into the 12's. Stock car, dsm link *
500), 650 injectors(200.00)exhaust(150), walbro 255(100) fpr(100)evoIII turbo(500) 2g maf(50) wideband(200.00) clutch(180) front mount with piping(250)um,. that looks like it, other than general maintnence, don't need slicks being that there is 4 wheel traction. Tuning it is easy as hell with dsmlink and a wideband, even a monkey could do it.

There is absolute no upside to keeking a 420a car over a 4g63 car when trying to make it fast, other than if you have full coverage on it, and you want to pay less pn insurance.

Stock 6 bolt 4g63 all stock internals, holds over 450 horsepower. Proven thousands of times.

You realize your $3k car that you paid two grand for turned into a $4k car after adding those mods. At least do your addition right. I think what driggs was saying as far as neither being cheap is even though we all know it's a lot easier to get an awd 4g63 into the 12's, the more power your making, the more likely things are to break. These are after all mostly 10-17 year old cars. Old cars break. Plus if you're planning on going balls to the wall and rebuilding, parts are going to cost about the same. If you don't wanna touch the engine then yes you will definetly make more power out of the 4g63.

As far as the "no upside to keeping a 420a over a 4g63" it's all in the opinion of the individual. Some would rather keep a car that they already have and know how it was treated then to spend forever searching for an unmolested 4g63. Some like the challenge of FWD, and some just have differing opinions on what is fast. 14's may be fast to one person while 12's may be slow to another, it's all a matter of perspective.

 

[selmerguy]

14's may be fast to one person while 12's may be slow to another, it's all a matter of perspective.

Thats me

 

[dsmdragon]

Man a lot of controversy on what is better damn! If you all realize that AWD means at least a second less time then a FWD. Well, so i have see with my years of no-how. But any ways it's all up to the person is very true. But wouldn't it have been just a lot easier to just say that, then all the other stuff you guys did to my questions on it. AWD has 4wheels not 2 or 1 at take-off. next you could have just said that a 4g63 motor can handle a little more give or take the boost levels.
Thanks for the feedback on the questions guys I'm going to go with the 4g63 cause It's less on the pocket book and time. (another thing that could have been said but OK I guess) DSM's are a PITA I know, but they are a sick car and should have never been changed to the new 06 look-a-like mobiles they have now.

 

[BigRand]

Hey man, just looking at your NT dyno results, that's pretty impressive for what you got. When you do go AWD make sure you look up englishracing.net seieing how your in oregon and all. they've helped build some of the fastest in the northwest.