420a Fuel question

[96RS-Turbo]

Hey guys,
I'm a noob to this forum and since I can't really post much of anything else, I had a question in relation to being able to finally get my car tubro'd this weekend.

As for a mod list, here it is: Wiseco 8.6:1 pisons bored 20 over, eagle H-beam rods, arp head stud kit, port and polish and a standard valve job. The rebuild has ~3,000 miles on it. I also have the garrett t3/t04e turbo .63 a/r on the compressor side and .60 on the compressor side, a FMIC, missing link, Tial 38mm wastegate,accel injectors 310cc/m, boost controller,gauges, etc..and manifold w/ custom 2.5 inch downpipe.

Well here's the deal. All i need are some oil lines, which i'm having trouble finding, and possibly some fuel management parts. As of now, All I have to enhance fuel pressure are injectors. I was told when I bought them from a seller on ebay that they were 310cc/m. If I am going only run low boost for a while will the injectors be enough? If not, then what would anyone recommend. Also, when the engine is a little more broken-in and i want to turn up the boost, what other fuel management components are recommended?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. THANKS!!!

 

[TalonESIT]

Hey guys,
I'm a noob to this forum and since I can't really post much of anything else, I had a question in relation to being able to finally get my car tubro'd this weekend.

As for a mod list, here it is: Wiseco 8.6:1 pisons bored 20 over, eagle H-beam rods, arp head stud kit, port and polish and a standard valve job. The rebuild has ~3,000 miles on it. I also have the garrett t3/t04e turbo .63 a/r on the compressor side and .60 on the compressor side, a FMIC, missing link, Tial 38mm wastegate,accel injectors 310cc/m, boost controller,gauges, etc..and manifold w/ custom 2.5 inch downpipe.

Well here's the deal. All i need are some oil lines, which i'm having trouble finding, and possibly some fuel management parts. As of now, All I have to enhance fuel pressure are injectors. I was told when I bought them from a seller on ebay that they were 310cc/m. If I am going only run low boost for a while will the injectors be enough? If not, then what would anyone recommend. Also, when the engine is a little more broken-in and i want to turn up the boost, what other fuel management components are recommended?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. THANKS!!!

You're going to at least need some kind of FPR or FMU, fully adjustable to rise or lower based on boost. Your stock fpr will not adjust to the newly found boost and therefore, may not supply you with the fuel that you need, even with the 310cc's.

This will simply get you started, and is NOT all that you need. Well, for low boost, to get you started off right, you can get an FMU or SFMU and that may keep you content until you read up more about your fuel system. There is a lot of information on this site dealing with fuel and which route to go...

Congrats on boosting!! your off to a good start, with a built motor and all!

 

[Blitzeclips]

You need about 24-26 inches for the -4AN size feed line. You also need to tap into the oil pan for your oil return line, which usually is 10AN in size. If you need lines that bad, check ebay, and you should be okay. The only problem you may run into is finding an OUTLET flange for the return line. Some turbos need these so the return line can adapt to the fitting for your turbo. Basically, its turbo-->flange--->return line--->welded/fitted flange----> oil pan. Then again, after you purchase your oil lines, you'll know if they can screw directly into the turbo, or if a flange is needed once you fit these up.(turbo and lines, that is)

The feul pressure will not be raised under boost without an FMU. You cannot buy any FMU either. You must use an 12:1 ratio for anything below 8psi. Anything above, and you'll need to re-configure the set-up (for feul, that is).

You also need a pump which can deliver the feul fast enough for combustion. A Walboro 255lph should be more then suffice for your needs. Even if you turn up the boost later, this pump should support up to 25psi to say the least.


Good news for you, the motor is ready for boost and those injectors you bought will help also. They should support up to 12psi, or around there.

Post here if you have anymore questions. Good luck with the install though. Di dyou swap the motor in yourself or hire a shop to do it?

 

[96RS-Turbo]

Thanks so far for the input!!

For Blitzeclips, the engine internals were ordered by me but assembled by Hendren Racing Engines. They did all the machine work needed for the engine. I have a good friend working there, so i got a fair price for the work. The engine removal and installation was done by myself along with the clutch installation.

I've actually reconsidered my situation and relized that I won't have everything ready for the weekend so i'll have to post-pone the turbo install. But it will give me enough time to go ahead and prepare my engine for a large boost gain whenever needed.

Any ideas with emanage...i can get a deal on a Greddy emanage from the manager at Advance. So that may be an option. Any ideas?

 

[Blitzeclips]

Thanks so far for the input!!

For Blitzeclips, the engine internals were ordered by me but assembled by Hendren Racing Engines. They did all the machine work needed for the engine. I have a good friend working there, so i got a fair price for the work. The engine removal and installation was done by myself along with the clutch installation.

I've actually reconsidered my situation and relized that I won't have everything ready for the weekend so i'll have to post-pone the turbo install. But it will give me enough time to go ahead and prepare my engine for a large boost gain whenever needed.

Any ideas with emanage...i can get a deal on a Greddy emanage from the manager at Advance. So that may be an option. Any ideas?

BigRand (another member) has had experience with the e-manage. Apparently the gains are not worth the money from what I've read. PM him for more details, he'll be more then happy to fill you in I'm sure.

 

[XMasta19]

http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=tp&Category_Code=OIL

 

[BigRand]

Don't bother with the emange......I'm really close to making it work...but its not worth the downtime and calibrations and recalculations your going to have to make.

If I knew how to tune using the injector pulse maps...and I think I'd be boosting pretty high right about now...however I've got no time to figure it out...and no money to pay somone to do it for me.

As for fuel/engine management....here's some good affordable options.

MSnS.
Porterfuler
SFMU+ (SAFC optional)

try to stay away from the piggyback computers...the emange would have been worth the money if you could do ignitiontimng with it instead of having to purchase something else.

 

[96RS-Turbo]

After the advice I received, I purchased a Vortech SFMU w/ all the discs and springs. Tomorrow I'm going to order the fuel pump.

My car was assembled in May of 1996. Does anyone know what month they moved to the different fpr setup or can tell me how to look.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Just look in your engine bay... right above where the intake manifold bolts up to the head, you'll see the fuel rail. On the driver's side of the fuel rail, you'll either see two hoses, or one. If it has two, you have the early system, if it has one, you have the newer system. You can also look for the fuel filter on the firewall. If it's mounted on the firewall, you have the older system.

 

[cs82685]

As for fuel/engine management....here's some good affordable options.

MSnS.
Porterfuler
SFMU+ (SAFC optional)

I don't know if I'd consider the portfueler 'affordable' guess it depends on your budget though. SFMU will definetly work, but MSnS and the Portfueler are much more versatile

 

[Focker420]

I don't know if I'd consider the portfueler 'affordable' guess it depends on your budget though. SFMU will definetly work, but MSnS and the Portfueler are much more versatile

For a fuel tuning setup that does everything could u just get the MSnS but what version v1,v2,v3 i want to have pretty much fully ajustable so im thinkin the v3, MSnS 2. is this the best tunning device for a 300whps set-up or is there something better out there and whats the diff between the MSnS and the missing link are they just the samething but different company or what.?

Ty Nate

 

[XMasta19]

Go read around in the Engine Management forums on here and 2gnt, as well as no the megasquirt site and forums themselves. There is much more r&d needed with the MS2 still, most everyone is running MSnS with either v2.2 or v3 boards.

FYI: that reading will really help because MS and missing link, umm yeah

 

[Focker420]

Go read around in the Engine Management forums on here and 2gnt, as well as no the megasquirt site and forums themselves. There is much more r&d needed with the MS2 still, most everyone is running MSnS with either v2.2 or v3 boards.

FYI: that reading will really help because MS and missing link, umm yeah

Lol ty a little reading goes a long way when u understand wtf your reading so methinks this is a legit missing link will check the ebay for better deal but ya this is what i need right
http://www.420a.cimotorsports.net/Fuel and INtakes Pages/missing link/index.htm
And as for the MS i'm still confused I want the ignition adjustments and was wondering if the MSnS had that or just the MSnS2 or am i still way out to lunch on the whole MS system?

Ty sorry for the stupid questions but want to understand wtf i need.

Ps got the loan approved so we start the parts ordering soon. : )

 

[Focker420]

Ok so i'm thinking the vortech smfu is the way to go as compared to the afpr. And i am gettting a walbro 255 and the MSnS version 3.0. With a wideband O2 to get some accurate readings.Also i need a missing link if im not mistaken or does the MSnS have that taken care of?

I have the 2.2 howell stroker kit and head is port & polished, Have a t3/t4 garrett turbo,
For now plan on keeping the stock injectors if they can handle the aquired fuel increments.
And will problly keep it to a 4 injector setup aswell was wondering if all these components are compatable to eachother.

Or if u have any better suggestions intrested to know.

Ty Nate.

 

[Focker420]

Ok so was doin some searchin and some digging and came up with some money for injectors but don't really know what size, or what kind will used for my set up. While i was seaching found some good sites but got to the math page and was trying to do the number crunching to figure it out but still don't have a clue.

I want to run around the 15-20 psi mark on the turbo and not run a super high duty cycle so all i can hear is the injectors tick.
I heard good things about the ford injectors (red,blue)tops any ideas on whats the diff. And if these can be used on the stock fuel rail. ect

Any help or links would be awsome
Ty

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Ok so i'm thinking the vortech smfu is the way to go as compared to the afpr. And i am gettting a walbro 255 and the MSnS version 3.0.

I hate spoon feeding, but, you really need some help here...
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1812649&postcount=15

http://www.2gnt.com/www/corbin/example.html


S-FMU/FMU and MSnS don't really mix. It's possible, but you have to think of what each component does, then ask, "why?"

ML and MSnS wouldn't even work together... again, think of what each one does.

 

[BigRand]

Just an FYI focker......MSnS stands for Mega Squirt (fuel), and spark (ignition),


Also for people looking at getting to that 20+psi mark or 300whp, injector size really depends upon your setup.

But from what I've seen Your gonna want 440cc-610cc injectors depending on fuel setup and fuel presssure and other factors.

For those wanting to do more reseach on finding the right injector size for them, let me do what we do best on dsmtuners.com, link u up.

http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=How to Choose Fuel Injectors

 

[VelocitàPaola]

That's the same article I linked him to...

 

[TalonESIT]

Hey focker,

Im not trying to knock you down or anything so please do not take offense to this. The MSnS is NOT a plug and play affair. You have to put the board together yourself, even if you buy the system pre assembled YOU still have to do all the tuning and software configuring. Unless you are ready to have some SERIOUS downtime with your car, I honestly think you should take baby steps.

You've posted quite a bit with very similar questions in each thread you posted in.

If you decide to go the route of the MSnS you don't need an FMU or SFMU nor do you need an SAFC. The MSnS is a fully programmable ECU to REPLACE your stock PCM. You will need a 1:1 fuel pressure regulator.

A missing link is an aid to help prevent fuel cut. (Please correct me if i'm wrong someone, i have a 95) This concerns 1996+, or late 95 w/ OBD-II. You'll know you have an OBD-II because your PCM, in your engine bay, will have TWO connector harnesses( OBD-I only has one big harness). If you have a 1995 like stated in your profile, then you should NOT need a missing link period. A missing link pretty much "hides" positve air, boost, from your PCM. This way your PCM wont try to cut fuel or throw a code. Missing link is a mechanical device and does not have any relation to the MSnS setup.

Since I did fuel calculations a while back, I will give you some insight as to what you should be thinking about:

I used an 80% duty cylce for my calculations, they recommended nothing higher than 85% because you do not want your injectors to "lock up". You should have read this if you looked at all the helpful links people have provided for you in all the threads.

Now onto the numbers:
For a 300hp, 300 to the crank!, the approximate injector size for each injector is APPROX. 554cc ( 300*.525(fuel/hr)*10.5)/4 = 413/.80 =516sqrt(50/43.5)= 554cc

change the numbers for your needs. These numbers are only for fuel, they have no direct relation to boost, so no one can really tell you how much boost you should run to reach that hp level, so please don't ask.

Now, you can't just go out and buy some big injectors and throw them in your setup. If your using an SFMU you need to dial down your static fuel pressure A LOT. Which is unsafe route to do, but that would be the only way to prevent your big injectors from drowning the motor. Even when using an SAFC to help your fuel, it will not tune well enough to suit your needs(cause those are big injectors for our cars)


The MSnS will be able to handle those injectors, but the real question is can you handle the MSnS? You REALLY need to do your homework and not ask to be baby fed everything because it won't work out that way. Like I told you in the PM, Talon ESI-T has a lot of knowledge on the megasquirt setup, but he is not going to tell you EVERYTHING to do. He will guide you the best that he can.

Please do some research on this and your fuel setup. I am reiterating that to save you from getting frustrated too fast and giving up to quickly just because things aren't going right.

All the items, ML, SFMU, FMU, will all pop up with keyword searches on this forum. This forum has so much info from soo many knowledgeable people it should be illegal, but you have to put your foot work in and search around!

Also, look into the portfueler setup or the 034efi setup. That seems more like a route for you down the road, at least for right now.

Sorry for such a long post.... and sorry for caps on certain words mods, just making sure he catches things that have been repeated over and over....

 

[BigRand]

That's the same article I linked him to...

Well great minds think a like, but I'll give u credit for it first......not to mention a little reiteration couldn't hurt nobody

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Yeah, yeah...

 

[420a-t]

i was reading up on corbin's page off of the link paul posted and i saw the "fooling the s-afc" page. is this not all that accurate? if this is as good as i think it is (works for boost as well as vacuum) then why is no one using it? would a wideband help?

 

[BigRand]

The reason no one really uses it is because its not as cost effective as is once was before MSnS got big, alot of people were using the Super AFC to fine tune the cars and with an 8x8 map thats all we had to use. Now tuning off of throttle Position worked, but being able to do it off of boost as well is better in some cases. So corbrin went ahead and did this mod, now a days after purchasing the SAFC and doing the wiring and what not needed to do this modification, megasquirt is right in the same price range, with much better features to handle fine tuning. And those who find megasquirt to complicated wont' even want to touch this modification for the SAFC

And yes a wideband would help, but I think you better figure out what it would help with first. Definately read up all the power stages on 2gnt.com and don't forget the vfaq pages (if they are still around) on this website.

 

[420a-t]

it seemed to me that the safc "trickster" mod was easier to unerstand and something i could actually do. thats the reason why i asked is because i didnt want to touch megasquirt or an 8 injector setup because it seemed too hard.

i just wanted the wideband for later on down the road when i decide what i want to do for tuning. also i thought it would be beneficial to see if any detonation was (and is) taking place in my engine. i'm a poor high schooler who cant afford a second car... thanks for the replies, and i am not intending to take over this thread...

 

[Focker420]

Hokay wow did a little more looking around and i'm thinkin that some 660cc injectors will be good for my set-up and i will be able to tune sufficiantly with the MSnS.I have the walbro 255. I still need to buy my 1:1 afpr by aero, And need the injectors. There is a FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR KIT from fuelinjectorclinic.com at the bottom of the page that comes with the fpr, injectors and the fuel rail is this a good kit or is it just easyer to buy these items off ebay for cheaper, Just wanted to get all from the same place to cut down shipping cost.

http://www.fuelinjectorclinic.com/cart/mitsubishi.htm

Ty if u have any better advise on where to shop or if my kit looks like it is missing something let me know.