Big brake advice

[ACM]

Sorry Chris, I just wanted to make the point that boost97gst's post was incorrect.

The Brembo calipers on all but one WSBK teams are the exact same brake calipers fitted to the Aprilia RSV4 bikes sold on the street, as well as on the recent generations of Ducati sportbikes. I'm not sure which Brembo caliper is fitted to the Suzuki GSXR street bikes, I haven't looked closely.

 

[spoolingreen20]

Does the Wilwood 140-8292 kit fit the factory Talon 16 inch awd wheels?

 

[ACM]

Does the Wilwood 140-8292 kit fit the factory Talon 16 inch awd wheels?

I had that kit on my autocross car for a few months - the calipers clamshell horribly, they flex so much you basically have no brakes.

They will fit with Kosei K1 16" wheels, but I doubt OEM wheels will have sufficient clearance for the caliper body.

 

[spoolingreen20]

I had that kit on my autocross car for a few months - the calipers clamshell horribly, they flex so much you basically have no brakes.

They will fit with Kosei K1 16" wheels, but I doubt OEM wheels will have sufficient clearance for the caliper body.

Ok. Thank you. I thought I heard that they don't fit just had to make sure before I bought some 17's.

 

[ACM]

I don't think you will find any opposed piston calipers fitting with OEM DSM wheels, simply because the caliper body will be too deep.

Typical opposed piston caliper depth will be in the order of at least 2-3" - even the small calipers in the Wilwood kit mentioned are a couple of inches from the rotor face to the outer extremities of the caliper body - VR4 and Evo Brembos are deeper still. OEM 2G AWD calipers are barely 1 inch depth, so a wheel designed to fit OEM calipers is unlikely to fit anything else. The above calipers are what I have lying around in the workshop (for cars) that I can measure easily.

The beefier Wilwood calipers are probably bigger (ie deeper) than the above calipers, so even less likely to fit. Several members run Todd's front kits, hopefully they can chime in with measurements of their calipers ?

 

[jtmcinder]

+1

Evo X Brembos are 2.5" thick (to the outside) and Wilwood Forged DynaLites (which is what we all run for rallycross and gravel rally) are still 2" thick. No problems with "clamshelling" with my Wilwoods, but, of course, you aren't whaling on the brakes on gravel, anyway.

I'm still really confused about the need for big brakes to stop the car once (as in drag-racing). If you really want same-sized brakes front and rear, and you really are setting the car up for drag-racing, then you want gravel-rally brakes. The guy who knows the most about gravel brakes on DSMs and Evos is Ryan Thompson of TRF. He's also a great guy to work with. I say because gravel rotors are still pretty thick (mine are 1.1" in the front and .81" in the rear), so they have alright mass; they're just small in diameter.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Sorry Chris, I just wanted to make the point that boost97gst's post was incorrect.

The Brembo calipers on all but one WSBK teams are the exact same brake calipers fitted to the Aprilia RSV4 bikes sold on the street, as well as on the recent generations of Ducati sportbikes. I'm not sure which Brembo caliper is fitted to the Suzuki GSXR street bikes, I haven't looked closely.

Suzuki uses Tokico calipers on their GSXR, at least up until 2007 - likely later.

 

[ACM]

Suzuki uses Tokico calipers on their GSXR, at least up until 2007 - likely later.

Correct, and shortly thereafter they switched to Brembos on the 1000 and 750, and a little later on the 600 too.


If you're only stopping once (drag) I don't see how you can go wrong with Todd's drag brake kits ? Unless you need to stop twice that is

More to the point, there is no "best" brake kit, it all depends on what you're trying to achieve. JToby's new brakes are great for him right now, but a very different opinion would be forthcoming on his second hot lap of Watkins Glen - assuming he made it as far as a second lap. Same with my brakes - I'd probably have puddles of Al goop by the second lap too - but they're great (if a little heavy) for autocross.

Horses for courses.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Jtoby,
Could you provide some pictures of your brake setup?

ACM, is yours, too, aimed at being a smaller package rather than ultimate stopping power?

Puddles of Al just get my gears turning, that's all.

 

[jtmcinder]

Not sure why you want a picture of rally brakes on an Evo X, but here they are:

 

[ACM]

My setup is a compromise (aren't they all), I needed better braking than the OEM could provide, but I needed it to fit inside my 16" Kosei K1s which carry my Hoosier WETS rain tyres. Unfortunately that compromise only worked in my workshop - the first time the car got used in anger the calipers "clearanced" the rims ! So 17" WETS became inevitable. 16s have a taller sidewall and are more forgiving with better feedback than 17s (for me at least).

I'm running 1G 3kGT VR4 calipers on TunersNation 6061 brackets with Supercar Engineering ultralight floating rotors in the front, and Evo 8 calipers and GiroDisc ultralight floating rotors in the rear. When they work they are _really_ good, but the VR4 calipers are incredibly hard to bleed - the TN brackets put the calipers at quite an angle, and the VR4 calipers have only one bleed nipple (inboard).

Next task is to remount the calipers vertically, hopefully that will resolve the bleeding issues.

VR4 calipers are over a pound lighter than Evo 8 front Brembos, and VR4 pads are about half the weight; the Supercar rotors are 14lbs (iirc). The caliper brackets are literally a few ounces - the bolts weigh more ! If I can't fix the VR4 caliper problem I will switch to Evo 8 fronts with GiroDisc rotors - the weight I add in the caliper+pads will be more than offset by the additional weight lost from the GiroDisc rotors.

GiroDisc rear rotors are EIGHT pounds ! That's the same weight as a late 2G drilled and slotted solid rotor from Powerslot...

This setup allows me to use my favourite brake pads, CarboTech AX6, without fear of overheating them.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Not sure why you want a picture of rally brakes on an Evo X, but here they are:

Jtoby,
Puddles of Al just get my gears turning, that's all.

Besides, you tell us about how you have small brakes to fit inside a 15" wheel somewhere around once a week. The why soon becomes clear
Thx, btw. Nice shots.

My setup is a compromise (aren't they all), I needed better braking than the OEM could provide, but I needed it to fit inside my 16" Kosei K1s which carry my Hoosier WETS rain tyres. Unfortunately that compromise only worked in my workshop - the first time the car got used in anger the calipers "clearanced" the rims ! So 17" WETS became inevitable. 16s have a taller sidewall and are more forgiving with better feedback than 17s (for me at least).

I'm running 1G 3kGT VR4 calipers on TunersNation 6061 brackets with Supercar Engineering ultralight floating rotors in the front, and Evo 8 calipers and GiroDisc ultralight floating rotors in the rear. When they work they are _really_ good, but the VR4 calipers are incredibly hard to bleed - the TN brackets put the calipers at quite an angle, and the VR4 calipers have only one bleed nipple (inboard).

Next task is to remount the calipers vertically, hopefully that will resolve the bleeding issues.

VR4 calipers are over a pound lighter than Evo 8 front Brembos, and VR4 pads are about half the weight; the Supercar rotors are 14lbs (iirc). The caliper brackets are literally a few ounces - the bolts weigh more ! If I can't fix the VR4 caliper problem I will switch to Evo 8 fronts with GiroDisc rotors - the weight I add in the caliper+pads will be more than offset by the additional weight lost from the GiroDisc rotors.

GiroDisc rear rotors are EIGHT pounds ! That's the same weight as a late 2G drilled and slotted solid rotor from Powerslot...

This setup allows me to use my favourite brake pads, CarboTech AX6, without fear of overheating them.

How are the calipers currently positioned, near the top or bottom? Is it the knuckle that makes bleeding a pain (being that the nipple is inboard)?
Those GiroDisc rotors really do sound impressive.

 

[spoolingreen20]

I don't think you will find any opposed piston calipers fitting with OEM DSM wheels, simply because the caliper body will be too deep.

Typical opposed piston caliper depth will be in the order of at least 2-3" - even the small calipers in the Wilwood kit mentioned are a couple of inches from the rotor face to the outer extremities of the caliper body - VR4 and Evo Brembos are deeper still. OEM 2G AWD calipers are barely 1 inch depth, so a wheel designed to fit OEM calipers is unlikely to fit anything else. The above calipers are what I have lying around in the workshop (for cars) that I can measure easily.

The beefier Wilwood calipers are probably bigger (ie deeper) than the above calipers, so even less likely to fit. Several members run Todd's front kits, hopefully they can chime in with measurements of their calipers ?

Gotcha. This is my scenario. I have had my Wilwood kit for years now uninstalled. I bought them for a car that never saw them. My current 2g is begging for new front brakes now. The fronts are warped to hell. This is the time I told myself I would install the Wilwoods.

I just want to have the right clearance. If I remember correctly any 17 inch wheel should fit the bill. Is this a correct assumption?

 

[ACM]

How are the calipers currently positioned, near the top or bottom? Is it the knuckle that makes bleeding a pain (being that the nipple is inboard)?
Those GiroDisc rotors really do sound impressive.

They are positioned with bottom of the caliper a few inches forward of the top of the caliper, where they're designed to be mounted vertically based on images of the VR4. Based on the bleeding problems we've had, there's sufficient angle to trap air inside. Neither the upright nor the bleed nipple themselves present a problem, just the angle of the caliper. Well - I haven't pulled a VR4 caliper apart, so it could be partly be the bleed nipple/ bleed passages - I'll find out soon...

The ultralight GiroDiscs are very impressive. They don't build one-off units, but if you can work with one of the applications they've engineered, they are great - incredibly light even without any cross-drilling. The downside is the blades are single use, they can't be skimmed or resurfaced, they're too thin. But they make heavier duty versions should that be needed - since I never go over 70 all I need is leverage ratio, not heat sink mass.

Gotcha. This is my scenario. I have had my Wilwood kit for years now uninstalled. I bought them for a car that never saw them. My current 2g is begging for new front brakes now. The fronts are warped to hell. This is the time I told myself I would install the Wilwoods.

I just want to have the right clearance. If I remember correctly any 17 inch wheel should fit the bill. Is this a correct assumption?

I would not state that, not at all. I have at least two different aftermarket 17" wheels that will not clear the opposed-piston calipers I have - I have an 18" wheel that won't clear without spacers either. Your best bet is to look for wheel styles used on vehicles with 'big' calipers and go from there.

From personal experience, most Borbet and Konig wheels will not clear big calipers, regardless of diameter. 17" Kosei K1s might clear, definitely with a spacer; Kosei TS definitely clear, and so do Enkei PF01s and RPF1s.

 

[agentorange313]

Any update on the bleeding issue?