ECMlink SD Tune is gone after Aeromotive FPR install... DSMLINK HELP!

[Calan]

ill load the map that glen put on and take a log, but i shouldent be pulling hard with those timing tables yet correct? im re reading all your posts multipul times to get this into my head

You shouldn't be pulling "hard" immediately on any major change unless you know for sure that you won't see knock. Always do a partial or low-boost pull first after any radical changes just as a quick sanity check...then you can do a full pull if everything looks ok. Watch your wideband and especially for a knock cell as you roll into the throttle. If you see ANY knock or the wideband starts leaning out (probably anything more than 11.5 or so for now), get off the gas and study the log to see what's going on.

I haven't actually looked at Glen's tables yet, but they are probably a safe yet not overly-conservative set of maps that will be a good starting point. They should be fine to run while you dial in your VE table. Once that is done, then go back and optimize his AFR and timing maps for your particular setup.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

I don't think you have been understanding why I/we said to put the map back to at least Stock... I said that nearly two weeks ago yet your still ignoring this??? this is one of the big reason I don't try to give help to people as much anymore (aside from free time) that I'm not tuning their car anymore as what is the point if someone doesn't listen?

AT this Point I'd say GET A TIMING LIGHT ON IT ASAP wouldn't be a bad Idea to check you physical timing as well while your at it.

As Glen just said your doing more harm then good with your currant timing map.

This is gonna sound kinda backwards
But, Hopefully your base timing has been off if it's actually been advanced you really wouldn't have such the negative affects of the massively retarded timing... I'm curious as to who was doing your "tuning" setting up a map like that though...

im loading glens timing map right now. the base timing was +5* i said it earlier. it was tuned by someone that used to work at pina motorsports and now is off joining a new venture shop. (they are supposed to come back and retune me after the sensors were fixed and calibrated BUT he has been super busy with school and finals goin on that i havent been able to bring hte car down yet.)


also, i have seen sugguestions before yes, but i havent driven the car for over a month since about a week ago, and have not had one little bit of time to even sit down and mess with the tuning, thats why most of the logs have been just a drive home from work. i am loading the maps and i am taking your advice, so please dont think im not.

 

[turboglenn]

edit: OK good to see you working at it,now you're making us proud!!!!!!!


1.) Get a timing light on it..set the base timing

2.) load either the maps i wrote you or a stock basemap

3.) adjust the VE tables to get thye AFR"s calibrated

4.) go pull us a 3rd gear log from 2500 - redline RPM and post it up here


If you're trusting that the base timing is +5* fromthe person who wrote that timing map thn i'll say again GET A TIMING LIGHT ON IT, there's more wrong than just that map, set thetiming where it should be set so that the values given by DSMlink are what is put into the engine, the reason you have DSMlink is tomake changes the right way and not by advancing the CAS and other old school ways of adding power..if 5* is base,then use that but double check it because your tuner friend is not helping you with anything he did and i would bet that the base timing is off since the car hasn't ruined parts with your WOT pulls already, and that' probably whjy the timing is at -8 and the car even moves under boost instead of bogging out with the wastegate wide open

 

[Archer Fabrications]

edit: OK good to see you working at it,now you're making us proud!!!!!!!


1.) Get a timing light on it..set the base timing

2.) load either the maps i wrote you or a stock basemap

3.) adjust the VE tables to get thye AFR"s calibrated

4.) go pull us a 3rd gear log from 2500 - redline RPM and post it up here

yeah like i said i AM taking your advice, i do work 8 hours a day and have a very loving girlfriend to come home to, i do plan on taking your advice and posting logs, i am going to load up the .eda tables in a bit im sorry if you think that i have been ignoring what you are saying, but i only had time to finish reading what you said just now.

glen, curious why you changed the Rev limiter to 8k, i wanted it at 7300ish cause i dont have upgraded valve springs or retainers, also on the ALS/knock sensor, you made it not see knock until 50% throttle and 4k rpms. why wouldent you want to have the sensor activated at 35% and 3k rpms?

 

[turboglenn]

I know you aren't ignoring us, we're just kinda waiting for results from the advice given and getting antsy about it when you hand't yet tried.. I"m willing to help anyone and be enthusiastic about it as i enjoy tuning via the web and forums as much as i do tuning and wrenching at home. we just want to see improvements or something based on you taking our advice, and with so many people that ask for advice over and over and then will say "i know it's not X part/problem" and they haven't even checked what we told them, it's like asking for help and saying "because i'm smarter than you are i'm going to only take the advice that makes sense to me" well if the person getting that advice didn't need help there wouildn't be a thread asking for it, so how can they say they know it's not what some one suggested i see this all the time so manny of us are quick to jump and tell people if they aren't going to take the adviuce we're gonna stop offering it..nothing personal, just after giving advice and racking my brain to help those who won't take the helpi get quick to call peopleout too

 

[Archer Fabrications]

I know you aren't ignoring us, we're just kinda waiting for results from the advice given and getting antsy about it when you hand't yet tried.. I"m willing to help anyone and be enthusiastic about it as i enjoy tuning via the web and forums as much as i do tuning and wrenching at home. we just want to see improvements or something based on you taking our advice, and with so many people that ask for advice over and over and then will say "i know it's not X part/problem" and they haven't even checked what we told them, it's like asking for help and saying "because i'm smarter than you are i'm going to only take the advice that makes sense to me" well if the person getting that advice didn't need help there wouildn't be a thread asking for it, so how can they say they know it's not what some one suggested i see this all the time so manny of us are quick to jump and tell people if they aren't going to take the adviuce we're gonna stop offering it..nothing personal, just after giving advice and racking my brain to help those who won't take the helpi get quick to call peopleout too

k loaded it up and took a very short idle, not even fully warmed up, obviously i cant just go take pulls in the middle of work and the file name is suposed to say after glens.eda log.elg pardon my spelling

 

[turboglenn]

the logs are looking better already before even at idle everything was everywhere, at least it's nice and smooth now, can't wait to see how it does on your drive homeand once you check the base timing again to ensure where it's at

 

[Calan]

and have a very loving girlfriend to come home to...

AHA!

I see the problem now.

glen, curious why you changed the Rev limiter to 8k, i wanted it at 7300ish cause i dont have upgraded valve springs or retainers, also on the ALS/knock sensor, you made it not see knock until 50% throttle and 4k rpms. why wouldent you want to have the sensor activated at 35% and 3k rpms?

Probably an oversight. I wouldn't take it past 7k until you get everything dialed in. You can then extrapolate the timing out and go a little bit higher on the revs if you wish. (Not by much though if you have a stock head).

It also never hurts to drop the thresholds for the knock sensor when you're first starting on a tune, unless you have phantom knock and are sure that it isn't real. I like to run the knock sensor as low as possible (above 3k) and around 40% throttle, unless there is PK.

 

[snowborder714]

Not to be a dick, but can both of you please learn to use the shift key, proper (or any) punctuation, and capitalization? I know I've handed out warnings before to both of you.

 

[turboglenn]

Not to be a dick, but can both of you please learn to use the shift key, proper (or any) punctuation, and capitalization? I know I've handed out warnings before to both of you.

Sorry man, and yea i'll work on it. Although i have my problems with hitting the keys sometimes that are due to medical reasons, I guess it's still no excuse to not use proper grammar in the first place.

____________________________________________________________

Urban, Calan was correct, the rev limiter was aminor oversight.. All i really paid a lot of attention to was the mapping, everything else i just figured you'd keep the same and overlay my cell values into what you're current setup is.

The knock sensor setting is something that will need fine tuned for your application and to reduce PK if needed, but things are so far out of whack with your logs that for now i think making sure the AFR"s match up correctly and that the timing is where it says it is (by checking base timing again) and right now any knock that arrises isn't something i'd start changing timing values to try and deal with. I simply changed it to that to 50% and 4k RPM to keep you from being alarmed under cruising areas by any phantom knock or other issues that may be indicating false readings.

**A side note (a.k.a my ramblings) about the knock sensor
Many people are way too affraid of the mitsu KS, but the facts are that when it's going off it's going off at a level that's programmed to pickup noise and reduce timing well before any seriouse knock that could cause damage could even occur. They (the mitsu KS's) are somthing i've hated for years and why i had no problem tuning without one for over 9 years after i removed the OEM ECU at 24k miles to replace it with a stand alone that had no knock monitoring abilities at all.

And i NEVER had a knock problem or even signs of knock under daily use without the knock sensor, but when it was installed and i was logging it the damn thing was pulling timing all over the place and half the time every third pull i'd do was so retarded the car barely moved. So i was happy to get rid of it with the haltech install, I never saw any signs of knock via plug reads and other tell-tale signs to indicate there was any real knock ever going on in the first place, after all mitsu put it on there to avoid warranty covered engine damage really, they put in so many "safeties" that idiot could fill a talon up with 87 octane while having the wastegate inoperable and driving WOT from every light, and even then it wouldn't hurt the car.

I did later invest in a stand alone knock sensing system made by J&S safegaurd, it has custom written algorythims and an amount of deafening based on what I as the tuner considerede to be either real knock or false knock, and even with the cash and extra custom programming time dumped into this unit i can still do 3different things and set it off wihtout the engine ever knocking.. Plain and simple, unless you have a way to control the KS and enough intelligence to learn when to ignore it and when to pay it some attention, the OEM KS is something that will only cause you headaches with wondering why youn can't make power without it going crazy.

I didn't start using my J&S until after i got my tuning done for the most part with timing curve where i wanted it and only then used it to tell one run from another in terms of noise, and not to use it as a guideline for setting my timing although that's common aproach in the DSM world it's the last way you want to go about building a timing curve. NOt to mention once you've modified the engine with cams, different pistons and everything else we do the KS is reacting to noises that are harmless half the time. PLain and simple that KS is something i would completely ignore for now, and then AFTER everything is dialed in, tables are calibrated and the car is ready for some real boost and RPM pulls, that's when i'd start to give the knock sensor any validation enough to pay attention to it (basically i'msaying that i would only look at the KS for any info under WOT pulls in areas of boost over 15psi, other than that the tables are safe enough that if knock is displayed anywhere besides areas over 4k RPM and well into the boost, it's probably false knock anyway

 

[snowborder714]

After reviewing the maps Glenn made up, I have a few comments on them.

Timing map:
If you're trying to push 12° under 2000 RPM's, I have a feeling there will be issues. Either way, there seems to be pretty much no ramp/curve in the timing map. I can see it varying by 5° or so (12-17&#176, but that's about it. My timing map varies by 10°, give or take a couple.

Fuel map:
That giant block of yellow in the bottom left kind of has me uneasy.


Glenn, I think you're fairly knowledgeable on tuning, but any reasons behind these recommendations? These seem kind of crazy/edgy, and not something I'd even want to run in my car (and I tend to push the boundaries with tuning).


My recommendation:
Evo Mod 1 tables

I've helped tune at least a dozen cars and once I get idle dialed in and do a base pull (so we get data and the owner can get a feel of the car), I load these tables. I've never heard anything bad about them, and have always received positive feedback. A lot of people will load these and not really touch them, as they lean it out a good bit, but not too much, and also have timing under control. They are safe maps, fairly similar to the stock maps, but definitely get your car moving better than the stock maps.


Just my input, so take it however you want. I know Craig is also a big fan of these maps, and I'm sure he's most likely recommended them in this thread.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

After reviewing the maps Glenn made up, I have a few comments on them.

Timing map:
If you're trying to push 12° under 2000 RPM's, I have a feeling there will be issues. Either way, there seems to be pretty much no ramp/curve in the timing map. I can see it varying by 5° or so (12-17°), but that's about it. My timing map varies by 10°, give or take a couple.

Fuel map:
That giant block of yellow in the bottom left kind of has me uneasy.


Glenn, I think you're fairly knowledgeable on tuning, but any reasons behind these recommendations? These seem kind of crazy/edgy, and not something I'd even want to run in my car (and I tend to push the boundaries with tuning).


My recommendation:
Evo Mod 1 tables

I've helped tune at least a dozen cars and once I get idle dialed in and do a base pull (so we get data and the owner can get a feel of the car), I load these tables. I've never heard anything bad about them, and have always received positive feedback. A lot of people will load these and not really touch them, as they lean it out a good bit, but not too much, and also have timing under control. They are safe maps, fairly similar to the stock maps, but definitely get your car moving better than the stock maps.


Just my input, so take it however you want. I know Craig is also a big fan of these maps, and I'm sure he's most likely recommended them in this thread.

So you would load the evo mod 1 copy all to ECU so the timing and fuel are identical, OR would you just copy the timing table and see the differences, i want things as smooth as possible. would you recommend the evo mod 1 over what glen put in? or are there any changes you would make to glens table?

Thanks.
totally open for feed back and to change anything necessary

 

[snowborder714]

I personally always start with the Evo tables as a base. No offense to Glenn, as he is fairly knowledgeable about tuning, but I'd pick these over his.

I would load all 4 tables (both max and min octane for timing and fuel). If you find those work well and a couple logs look good, you could jump to the Ralliart maps. They're a bit more aggressive than the Mod 1 tables.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

I personally always start with the Evo tables as a base. No offense to Glenn, as he is fairly knowledgeable about tuning, but I'd pick these over his.

I would load all 4 tables (both max and min octane for timing and fuel). If you find those work well and a couple logs look good, you could jump to the Ralliart maps. They're a bit more aggressive than the Mod 1 tables.

ill load the evo mod 1's up soon, i think i do need to get the calibration correct like calan said so that when i try and hit a target AFR its a true value and not a true value of something higher like he said

 

[turboglenn]

some of those areas the engine will never hit, it's impossible for it to in general. As for 12* timing under 2k RPM i don't see where that's bad in any way. I run 18*advance at idle in my car which is nothing uncommon for most engines. The yellow areas on bottom left of the map are areas the engine can never get into, I grabbed a bunch of cells and raised their values and they were included, it just bugs me to see negative timing anywhere i guess .

You should see the maps in my car, they are more advnaced that those and the car runs crisp with a very nice wide and flat powerband, but then again i'mtuning timing tables based on years of tuning things besides DSM's, and when you look at some one's tables that only have tuned DSM's and learned by examining the stock tables then you see the same thing everytime, timing pulled wya back to almost nothing at the boost onset, then SLOWLY ramping up to a good value for a total of .5 seconds before the shift occurs. I can even (just for example) show you many many maps other smart tuners have made for many other cars and no where will you find the type of timing retardation and slow feeding of it back like you do in the DSM worls.. I've gotta rtun to the post office but when i get back i'll be glad to show you what i ran in a car on pump with no KS available to me for many years without ever having problems..

But i think what you're mostly seeing are areas the engine wil never land in as far as load vs. RPM (when will some one make 20+ psi at 2k RPM??? so it doens't matter what's put into those cells, it just freaks people out to see values that are uncommon to what they see in every other DSM which is 99% of the time using a curve based on adding or taking away timing fromthe stock curve, hence they always see those super low, and un-usable values in the lower left region..

As for timing under low load, idle and cruise.. In my car i run 18* idle, and ramp up to 35* at roughly -10 in/hg vacum, falling to about 28* at 0vac and 0 boost, then i linearly take and lower timing a half degree per psi for the most part as well as increasing timing from a bsae of 14-15* at 20+ psi and 4500 RPM and quickly raise it to about 21* by 7k RPM. Timing is about smooth maps that don't have huge drops or gains in advance as this is what's called the "attack rate" and adding or removing too much timing too fast will cause such a fast shift in piston to cylinder loading that it will create real engine noise every time and this noise although not detonation is a kncoking of the rods in a sense and is bad for the engine, not to mention harmful to the power curve when it sets off the knock sensor

the place that there may be some deviation from what i intended on the map is that i may not have perfectly figured out what load cell what which amount of boost, and based my inputs on my past experiecnes with DSMlink cars and where they landed on given boost when logging/tuning

Having been a haltech dealer (and accel DFI as well) and going to many training seminars and such it's funny to me that i consider the tables you recomend (evo ones) to be crap and you are affraid of the ones i put up. I've been tuning and swapping tuning info with other tuners the better part of 14 years and when anyone builds a map from scratch on a pure stand alone system you'll never see the type of odd ball "safety margin" values like you see in the OEM mitsubishi maps.. if you aren't comfortable with my mapping that's fine, but i would recomend you actually look into trying some of the curves i've posted and run and see if you dopn't get a nice gain in performance on your own car. I can almost without fail 90% of the time go into anyone's DSMlink and find them a lot of fuel economy, a good bit of torque and a few extra HP in the top as a result of starting to make power earlier and smoother in general compared to the values most come up with by addind/subtracting from a stock table based on KS readings. TO be honest i'm a little offended but i guess ihave to keep in mind that you're basing your judgement off what you've been exposed to in DSM's and not so much from studying ECU programming and setup from scratch on engines in general (i mean no offense by that either just saying it's probably why my tables scare you when any other tuner of ECU's (not justDSMlink) would probably look at them and say "yea that's about average")

 

[snowborder714]

Then why tune it if the engine won't hit it? Or did you take this table from something else and just adapt certain points?

Yes, I understand it won't hit some points, and that's fine. But starting off with 12-13° of timing right away in a pull seems high to me. Will that cause any issues (e.g. knock)? Will it help the engine in some way, or possibly hurt it? It just is different to me, so I don't know how it will perform.

At idle, your car is showing 18° of timing? Why do you have it running that high?

Will the method of throwing massive timing at the car very early on work with every single car though? Or do you think some others will react better than ours? I agree with getting timing up higher than stock earlier on, but I don't know if going too high can hurt the car. It's always been a battle to know whether timing or AFR will help the car more at spool up/onset of full boost.

You also need to keep in mind the audience you're tuning for. A lot of these people have no idea what's going on with their car and take anything someone posts up to be truth. A lot of the time if something goes wrong in a pull, they won't notice it.

I'd be interested to see maps/a log from your car, as that timing seems ridiculously high. But then again, that's based on my experience. I took no offense in your feedback/opinion, and hope you took none from mine. I'm here to learn, so if you have solid proof that your table will work better than mine and net me some gain, then you've taught me something.

 

[Calan]

I looked at the maps, and while I have the utmost respect for you Glen, I have to agree with Brian on this one.

While running higher timing down low may work fine in some cases, I would rather run a bit lower timing at idle (I usually target something around 12*) to allow more reserve for the engine when heavy load demands kick in such as AC, etc. This "should" make it easier for the ECU to adjust idle speed with instantaneous timing changes as the ICS adjusts more slowly. Of course if a car never experiences any problem at 18*, then it really shouldn't matter too much.

As for the timing just before and during spoolup, I would think you would want lower values there to keep more heat in the turbo during spool... and 12-14* just sounds pretty high. You make some very good points (and I'm anxious to experiment with it on my car now ), but for new tuners I think it would be safer to go with what we are all used to seeing on these cars.

Good discussion as always though!

 

[turboglenn]

EDIT: Ok, i am not the one who put all that timing in at idle on that map, I am kicking myself for not seeing it as out of place where those two 20* cells are at, so my bad for not catching it in the original ap, but wasn't my doings although i run that much in my maps

Now...since you've all had me questioning my owb work (and sanity ) i decided to have the only 2 other tuners i trust enough to do any mapping on my car look at both my map, his original and the ECMlink downloads.. Thankfully just as i thought mine was average or normal and both made fun of the maps you can download (both DSM stock and Evo Stock) Both also said the stock maps were great for people that didn't really care about making good power.

One of the guys (Troy Ramsey) is a tech at a local Ford dealer and has been for many years and agreed that both factory enginering and as well as the mapping in his mazda match up with the high timing i use to keep the AC from effecting my idle (said his mazda is at 18* when the vacum goes low for the AC kicking in and said that ford uses 6* of advance on toip the basic idle advance when their small cars like the focus and such have the AC on)

I looked at the maps, and while I have the utmost respect for you Glen, I have to agree with Brian on this one.

While running higher timing down low may work fine in some cases, I would rather run a bit lower timing at idle (I usually target something around 12*) to allow more reserve for the engine when heavy load demands kick in such as AC, etc. This "should" make it easier for the ECU to adjust idle speed with instantaneous timing changes as the ICS adjusts more slowly. Of course if a car never experiences any problem at 18*, then it really shouldn't matter too much.

As for the timing just before and during spoolup, I would think you would want lower values there to keep more heat in the turbo during spool... and 12-14* just sounds pretty high. You make some very good points (and I'm anxious to experiment with it on my car now ), but for new tuners I think it would be safer to go with what we are all used to seeing on these cars.

Good discussion as always though!

If you look in the haltech tuning manual you'l see that they recomend more timing for more torque during idle tocompensate for the AC compressor, I have no "ac comp" in my idle settings and turning the timing up to 18* makes itr where the car doesnt' even spit or lose 50 RPM when the AC kicks in before it recovers

no one has to take my advice, i'm just saying that i'm not the only person that tunes this way, in fact most stand alone dealers/tuners will have mapping similar towhat's in my car. the DSmlink stuff i roughed out kinda fast with values better than what he had, and in my opinion better than the OEM maps yuou can download.

YOu are correct, i just modified another map and had grabbed a bunch of cells so i didn't care where it landed for values in the areas the car would never be able to get into.. doens't matter if there's 10 or 30* of timing some where if the engine can't hit the load point (like say 25psi at 1500 RPM) although the points are there in the map you'll never get to them

and throwing timing down low is normal, just because the "base timing" is set at 5* doens'tmean that's what the ECU is using once running, I see typical advances from 12- 14* on lots of cars that i log with OBD-II software andthese are stock un-modified vehicles. More timing smooths out the idle, leans out the AFR's with a better burn and again gives the engine more torque to deal with things like AC and alternator loads, although 18* may not be needed on most cars, it's perfecton mine.

And in those timing and fuel maps i didn't touch what was there for idle and most of the light load stuff i didthe WOT and only modified the 3k RPM to 4500 RPOM lighht loads the rest were values already there

The last thing i'll add is that in the 72 and more vehicles i've tuned (i have records of at least 72 in my pictures/portfolio of work i've done) and over 40 stand alone installs and mappings, i've NEVER had any type of failure related to the tune I've put on a car, i've never blown one up on the dyno or even had issues with the idle and driving. Of course i can't properly map a car on the internet, but the base values i used are something i"ll stand by and say again that most of the world when writing a timing map fgrom scratch will show similar entries for a turbo 4 with this compression, boost etc..

calan...12-14on spool up is fine, I honestly don't usually "pull timing" back in that way but buildthe curve to have that sameadvancein all RPM's for the most part under boost, then as RPM increases I increase lead in order to keep the occurance of peak cylinder pressure happening at the desired 20* or so ATDC. There's nothing wrong with having timing at spool on set and the OEM way of retarding back so far and then advancing is solely "added safety" that's a set of values based on them knowing it will see crap 87 octane on hot days in the worst of conditions.....

My J&S knock sensor is very sensitive and on my 57 trim i was able to run the same advance at peak torque as i could at peak RPM but it wasn't needed for MBT. My J&S proved to many around here that having my timing be a set 16* BTDC under all boost levels used on my pump gas tune back on my 57 trim was completely safe, and it showed many of them how i made such a broad flat curve on pump gas and low 18-19psi (332hp/312tq at 19psi and 16* timing from 3500RPM and up to redline at that level) and never showed knock on piss water 91 octane we have here.

WHen you pull timing fast by stepping on the pedal in a high RPM from cruising state (say 4000 RPM cruise and you floor it) you go from timing in the high 20's low 30's and quickly drop into the DSM's 9* timing, what this does is during the load onset it pulls a ton ofload right back off the pistons m,aking an abrupt change in power delivery, this alone can cause engine noise that's picked up as knock, timing attack is just as detrimental in deceasing timing too fast as it is to advancing it too fast, I'll get you guys some logs up here in a bit from my car that show my "conservative tune" and it really is conservative but will make a standard DSM map look like it neveer grew up

I'll agree most on here won't catch things during a pull and do need conservative mapping but as long as the OP uses the best pump gas he can find the map i wrote is perfectly safeand is in now way "pushing the envelope" at all

 

[MY1GDSM]

I'd be interested to see maps/a log from your car, as that timing seems ridiculously high. But then again, that's based on my experience. I took no offense in your feedback/opinion, and hope you took none from mine. I'm here to learn, so if you have solid proof that your table will work better than mine and net me some gain, then you've taught me something.

While I run E85 and I'm not sure how much different his approach is from gas... My maps I RUN Are really not that far of from what glen is running(in most parts) at least the way I understand him explaining them... I'd be interested to see them myself... .

About the only thing different Keeping in mind the nature of how I tune cars and that I don't really take the same approach as in person.. .

Is that I would keep some of the Lower Rpm & High load Cells a bit more conservative and start out Like he did with pulling at least a few degrees (even if it's not via the Sliders I understand his reasoning behind going at it like that)and adding it back only if your AFR are in check as I've seen a lot of people do some odd things over the years... Just to be on the safe side. This is part of the reason I commented in the thread again at all.

I kinda looked at first glace like you guys did with the maps... . But, I didn't comment(directly about them) as I assumed that he was trying to just get a rough map that would work better in there for the OP then what he was running... I recommend to people quite often the EVO maps as well But I don't believe I do it for anywhere close to the same reasons you guys do... . This being Tuners an all

I'll have to reread most of this when I have more free time as I might have a few things to add/comment on what glen is saying... .

 

[turboglenn]

I've got a post with logs up in this section now so you guys can see some of my mapping.

I want to comment on my last post. The two other competent tuners i had look at the maps earlier are not and have never been DSM owner.. One has and has had many different turbocharged mazdas he's built from N/A cars as well as some old school factory rally 323 builds (AWD little buggers). The other guy is a known megasquirt guru and has a turbocharged checvy 1500 4x4 pickup as well as an older 300zx turbo that's been swapped to a single turbo setup and is in excess of 600hp.

Now neither of them having been DSM guys they were shocked by the timing dip, and we got into a good bit of discussion about it as it's not something you normally see in mapping when going for power nor do you see it on many OEM cars except DSM's, WRX's and possiblyt a few others i can't think of, but i have seen WRX's do this exact thing when i was re-mapping them on accessport.

Anyway, I don't mean any of this in an argumentative or even deffensive way, like i said earlier i'd simply feel good to open the eyes of a few people to a lot of lost torque as well as some extra top end that can be gained from getting the powerband started earlier. Not to mention the benefits that timing can have on idle and economy when cruising,, doesn't have to be excessive, but the map i made in DSMlink is really a conservative tune that aside from that idle timing i would urge yuou guys to try some similartiming setups, the less swing in the curve starting with morea advance the better to be honest.. The ramping curve should solely be used to keep up with the increasing piston speed so that the burn will reach PCP at the proper time (which is what you're shooting for findning when you find MBT) then advancing timing as said to match and keep up with the increasing piston speed.

There's no benefit at all to retarding the timing and slowly feeding in what little you can provide it before redline. The ideal way to have it setup is the timing only retarding the amount it needs to to avoid detonation but more so being at a value that provides MBT, then advancing slowly from there just enough to keep "peak cylinder pressure - PCP" occuring at the right time where it can get the most mechanical advantage over the crank, therefor being transferred to the trans/axles/wheels as horsepower Although this time varies, in a general range the peak part of combustion where the most force is being generated should occur somewhere around 15-20* ATDC for optimum performance as well as being the thing you're looking for when dyno tuning looking for MBT


Timing attack rate: As i mentioned earlier is a HUGE part of tuning all load areas light and heavy.. UNder loads frommedium to high the more swings in timing and the larger they are the worse they are for power and your engine's health. I can try to explain but googling it will return you better results.

The worst that could happen from trying a timing curve like i run is that you don't like it or its knock happy on your mitsu sensor and you change back to what you were running previousely..the best case is you make more power and have learned something new.. I hope a few of you will try thinking and tuning outside the diamond (DSM'er's version of outside the box )

I've figured out why it is everyone was knocking everything i did.. I'm guessing you guys expected me to have him drop in that map and be good for the rest of his time (talking pulled sliders and the other things people disagreed with Well, what i was trying to do was have him put in a map with a decent 17* peak (but with the sliders dialed back long enough to set AFR's and not have to re-write the entire upperb load cells to higher values when done) Then I planned to fine tune things (or teach him too) as things progess better.. anyway, at least i hope that's what it was, otherwise i guess i just learned on stand alones and dono't take the "ECMLINK aproach" meaning tuning by their website's directions..

There's a hundred ways to reach the same goal, ECMlink being the most popular route i can see how most are affraid of anything looking different than the same few maps copied over and over with a few degrees added or taken here and there and AFR"sdialed in.. which that makes it easy for the masses.. I've been on so many different systems that overall tuning is no mystery and i can start from about any point, be it idle or WOT timing and still get to the other end and finish up a good tune. But, I'll admit i don't know a lot about all the calibrating and stuff that comes with DSMlink as the ECU's i usually deal with don't calibrate to anything, they are the "base calibration" and only thing the ECU listens too, it looks up the values i give it and executes them. Its weird having to calibrate a VE table to get the "Desired AFR table" into working range, i'm use to just changing the executed pulsewidth for a given loadand being done. Afterall, how can the ECU shoot for a desired AFR without accurate feedback to know it's correct, using a mix of narrowband which is as vague of a tuning tool as you can get, along with calculated air intake and the proper ratio of fuel by volume is just not that apealing in my eyes after using regular SD systems for so long

 

[mattasi]

Lots of good information in this thread, thanks guys!

 

[Archer Fabrications]

alright back again, i loaded the evo 8 mod 1 fuel maps and timing maps both low and MAX oct tables. the car felt WAY better like you said glen although i got knock i recalibrated the injectors and the VE table a bit can you take a look at this and tell me what you think?

 

[snowborder714]

Does your wideband reading on the gauge match what is being logged? If so, then your airflow is pretty far off.

I'd go through this to make sure it's logging correctly.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-tuning-ecu/428702-ecmlink-linear-wb-calibration.html

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Yeah it has been reading accurately as far as i know, i just loaded the map i dont think it would have changed, i got out of boost soon as mu cel came on at 2*

Edit: those vids were super helpful thank you very much, ill post a log after i calibrate the wb, is there anything i need to do in the ve table besides whats in the vid? Id assume running the ve adjust comp tool then smoothing

am i supposed to change the pin out to always be linear WB even when im not tuning? or do i set the linear wideband calibrate it and then reset the pinout to be the AEM EUGO... cause i also have the exact same gauge as gofer

and when im setting it to read no richer then 11:1 does that mean it wont let the car go richer then that at WOT and it wont go leaner then 14.7 at cruise.... or will it still get richer and leaner but just not show on gauge.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

It definitly has not
Been reading accurately i needa get this figured out today

ok i think i calibrated it corectly it matches on the gauge... let me know if everything looks about right here... ill run the VE comb FT adjust tool after a long idle to see if that changes anything. then do a few closed loop cruise logs and adjust the VE again... am i in the right direction?

i am getting a little idle surge right now its holding steady at 1500 and then will drop down after a few minutes but mostly it will sit up ther ISC position is 25 just need to know if im going in the right direction here, im gonna adjust the BISS right now

the WB is reading accurately now

first is idle, then pull then cruise
still get a little lean, and the timing i think is too high for the evo table... i switched to stock timing and things felt good. i did get some knock but my compter died during the stream so i didnt capture that. do you think i should go back to stock 2g timing and adjust from there? or stay with evo8 mod 1