ECMlink SD Tune is gone after Aeromotive FPR install... DSMLINK HELP!

[Calan]

The numbers in each cell are the amount of ignition timing advance that the ECU is going to apply at each RPM/load point. You will be MUCH better off running on the stock Evo 8 map than you will with that timing table you have now (the one with -8* across the board). With that much timing retard, you are putting way more stress and heat into the motor than you will with a conservative stock Evo 8 map.

Don't do any pulls at all until you get the timing back to normal. You can then do some low-boost pulls while you work on getting the VE dialed in. Don't worry about adjusting the timing and AFR DA tables until you get the airflow calibrated... unless you have knock. If you do, lower the timing cell where the knock occurred by the same amount as the degrees of knock, and then smooth the cells on each side into it by a degree or two.

Set the CEL to come on at 2* of knock, and keep a close eye on it when you start getting into the gas. If it comes on at all, get off the throttle immediately, pull over somewhere safe, and review the log to see what's going on. If you can do a full low-boost pull with no knock, work on the VE table to get airflow calibrated. Then up the boost a little... rinse, dry, repeat.

EDIT:

Damn... I replied after getting home and didn't refresh first. Now I see 132198369861293 posts between what I thought I was replying to and my response.

 

[turboglenn]

well,i'mprobably too late but i would say there is a danger in running WOT on that map because of the extreme retarded timingand the heat that will inflict on the head and turbo.

I'mgetting a really decent rough and safe map put together that with a little help from the sliders can become agressive or more conservative depending on your needs and results of the logs. I usually don't utilize sliders on SD mapping but by doing it this way on purpose it makes what you would have to change MUCH easier until you're comfortable with changing a cell value.. for now we'll make it where you can just adjust sliders by RPM in the WOT areas and the rest should be close to ideal for good power and fuel economy

Calan, for what i'mdoing for him i'm leaving the VE map to it's stock values seeing that the pattern of rise and fall of VE is correct and just changing the openloop fuel and timing table values to put out desired values accordingly, is this as effective in your findings? I know it works and i was thinking the map i'm making and with him being able to just play with sliders to compensate for anything that might be too much or too little we could get him in a good starting point for both saftey of the engine as well as learning how to tune his own ECU

baiscally i wrote what is roughly the starting values i use when starting from scratch on stand alones and dialed the timing up in the cruise areas but pulled it by 3 degrees in the WOT rangeson the sliders, this way with each pull if he sees no knock i want him to work all sliders from the negative side towards zero correction until he lands with my basemap at zero slider adjust (the positive values in the lower are for economy and can be easily reduced should the engine chatter or ping on light load and this way he doesn't need to know exzactly where in the map he is right away while dialing in the curve and learning how the changes take place and what effects it has without getting into the "map" and getting scared from being lost in the spreadsheet

EDIT: I have both the .ecm and .eda files i made in a decent enough starting point to get your car feeling 100 times better i'm sure, i just want to go over the timing as mentioned above and make sure your confortable and understand what i want you to do, and if not i'll only have you download one of the files and keep the other one the same as you're already running

Only download the .ecmfile if you know what i'mtalking about with the sliders. otherwise if you have any doubts just keep your .ecm and download the .eda that i changed for the time being

 

[Calan]

well,i'mprobably too late but i would say there is a danger in running WOT on that map because of the extreme retarded timingand the heat that will inflict on the head and turbo.

Agreed 100%

I'mgetting a really decent rough and safe map put together that with a little help from the sliders can become agressive or more conservative depending on your needs and results of the logs. I usually don't utilize sliders on SD mapping but by doing it this way on purpose it makes what you would have to change MUCH easier until you're comfortable with changing a cell value.. for now we'll make it where you can just adjust sliders by RPM in the WOT areas and the rest should be close to ideal for good power and fuel economy

While this works, it can cause a few snafus as well. The timing sliders are additive to the DA values, and are applied 100% of the time. They are also load independent. Let's say that you hit a certain load (row) in the timing table, and decide to change the timing at 5500 RPMs. If you do it with the slider, you have changed every load point at that RPM...which may not be a good idea at other loads.

But the sliders are very useful for making a temporary change while the car is running to see what affect it has at a certain RPM. The trick is to make the slider change, and if you like the results, transfer (add) the slider value to the affected cell in the DA table when you turn off the car and then zero the slider back out.

Calan, for what i'mdoing for him i'm leaving the VE map to it's stock values seeing that the pattern of rise and fall of VE is correct and just changing the openloop fuel and timing table values to put out desired values accordingly, is this as effective in your findings? I know it works and i was thinking the map i'm making and with him being able to just play with sliders to compensate for anything that might be too much or too little we could get him in a good starting point for both saftey of the engine as well as learning how to tune his own ECU

As you know, there are a lot of ways to arrive at a good tune. I'll give you my take on it....

IMO, true "tuning" is a minor and simple part of making good power. I'm not sure why, but nobody ever talks about "calibration", which is the time-consuming and difficult part of getting everything set up correctly. If the VE table (or MAF table) and fuel parameters aren't calibrated, then any AFR and timing changes you make are just shooting blind. You can still get the net result you want, but it's a round about and confusing way to get there.

It's pretty frustrating to have a target of 14:1 in the DA table so that you can hit a true AFR of 12:1 because your global fuel is 20% richer than it should be, since you don't know what your injectors really flow and the VE table says 124%.

With ECMLink, I always tell people new to tuning to zero the sliders, set the timing and AFR DA tables to something safe, and then forget about them for a while. Spend the next few days (or weeks working on the airflow and fuel calibration, so that the ECU knows exactly how much airflow and fuel it has to work with. Once you have reasonable looking VE and fuel values and can hit the target AFRs consistently, and fuel trims show that closed-loop calibration is accurate...then you can make incremental changes to AFR and timing in the DA tables to gain more performance.

If the calibration process was done correctly, you should be able to change any open-loop AFR target in the DA table and hit it. The log then shows exactly what you are shooting for and whether or not it made a positive change in performance.

YMMV of course.


BTW - I also highly recommend that people get in touch with Tom at ECMTuning and talk to him about flow testing their injectors on his new test rig. It uses DSM injector drivers and custom software, and the results of the test can be quite eye-opening compared to published flow data. As an example, my Blue Max 1350's showed that they needed individual DT values from -40us to +30us, and the actual flow at different voltages was completely different than what FIC publishes for them. Using Tom's numbers, the difference in idle, VE table smoothness, and the AFR curve was night and day.

 

[turboglenn]

I agree with everything you said 100%. The slider compensation is something that i want him to work towards zeroing based on his logs immediately.. then once they are zerod and he sees what adding/removing timing in a "general area" (which i'm only expecting for him to be at 100% TPS in the 5K RPM and up ranges where i'm pulling timing with the sliders and only be cruising in the 3500 and lower ranges where i'm adding timing with them. I figure a slider he can remember which one he moved and "undo" it easily and with more confidence then remembering "what cell" he changed in the very beggining.. then once he gets the base we move him onto tracing where he's at in the DA tables and adjusting it there accordingly for his final results/tune

The thing about ECMlink which is different than most stand alones (and can be confusing when a new guy is learning to tune) is the "2 tables" being DA and "speed density VE", a regular stand alone has no seperation between theseand there's ONE map for timing and one for fueling with no "calibration table" in the equation since it's a scratch tune and not the modification of the base values in the DSM ecu being changed by ECMlink from their "base programming" (hope that makes sense) just like we don't have sliders on pure stand alones, we don't have to calibrate anything so i'm trying to save him calibration until he at least has a normal looking timing and fuel curve set to dial in to.

basically what i want to do is get this map in and once the timing values are established as acceptable i want him to then calibrate the VE so that he matches the AFR tables and from there start to tune further if he likes but i'd say this map will make him a lot happier than the one in the ECU (i could stab at the values with darts and probably do at least that by accident though *no offense to your tune

 

[Calan]

i'm trying to save him calibration until he at least has a normal looking timing and fuel curve set to dial in to.

Understood.

I recommend the Evo 8 mod 1 maps because they are safe, but not nearly as overly conservative as the stock maps. They make a good base to just load up and use while getting the VE dialed in. Once you get a WB reading that matches any of those AFR values at each RPM and load, then you can go tweak them to your heart's content for more power without having to worry about the VE table anymore.

The VE table should be a one shot deal (unless you change something physically that affects the airflow)...and then you can play with the DA tables as often as you want to see which AFR/timing combo yields the best results.

That is how I think it "should" work...but of course it never does.

 

[turboglenn]

if it all worked the way we think or how its' "supposed to" there'd be no need for these forums and we wouldn't have each other's posts to keep us occupied, there for leaving us to the "idle hands syndrome" and possibly resorting to ricer activities or street racing in the evenings

I just started with one of the stock fuel maps and modified his timing map (would been faster to mod a stock one though looking back ), barely changed WOT AFR at high RPM and some transition points as well as modifying the timing to something that's smooth yet still has decent advanceup top without too much in the torque areas (nore too little which is key) they should be good places for himto basically calibrate to and then from there make changes based on dyno readings or logs to get the last few HP out of the car while staying with a safe daily driven car's tune

iposted them above if you want to check out the DA's , nothing spectacular but better than stock and surely better than what's in his ECU now

 

[Calan]

True story.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

as promised a cruise log, and a 3rd gear pull gotta read everyting you guys said tho response pending...

dont do pulls he says :S oops... ill load those maps tomorrow still reading so much typin

Set the CEL to come on at 2* of knock, and keep a close eye on it when you start getting into the gas.

EDIT:

Damn... I replied after getting home and didn't refresh first. Now I see 132198369861293 posts between what I thought I was replying to and my response.

already got the knock gauge and CEL on at 2* so many responses hard to keep up haha i did a pull but i havent seen any more knock then .7 which i heard is normal

Agreed 100%



While this works, it can cause a few snafus as well. The timing sliders are additive to the DA values, and are applied 100% of the time. They are also load independent. Let's say that you hit a certain load (row) in the timing table, and decide to change the timing at 5500 RPMs. If you do it with the slider, you have changed every load point at that RPM...which may not be a good idea at other loads.

But the sliders are very useful for making a temporary change while the car is running to see what affect it has at a certain RPM. The trick is to make the slider change, and if you like the results, transfer (add) the slider value to the affected cell in the DA table when you turn off the car and then zero the slider back out.



As you know, there are a lot of ways to arrive at a good tune. I'll give you my take on it....

IMO, true "tuning" is a minor and simple part of making good power. I'm not sure why, but nobody ever talks about "calibration", which is the time-consuming and difficult part of getting everything set up correctly. If the VE table (or MAF table) and fuel parameters aren't calibrated, then any AFR and timing changes you make are just shooting blind. You can still get the net result you want, but it's a round about and confusing way to get there.

It's pretty frustrating to have a target of 14:1 in the DA table so that you can hit a true AFR of 12:1 because your global fuel is 20% richer than it should be, since you don't know what your injectors really flow and the VE table says 124%.

With ECMLink, I always tell people new to tuning to zero the sliders, set the timing and AFR DA tables to something safe, and then forget about them for a while. Spend the next few days (or weeks working on the airflow and fuel calibration, so that the ECU knows exactly how much airflow and fuel it has to work with. Once you have reasonable looking VE and fuel values and can hit the target AFRs consistently, and fuel trims show that closed-loop calibration is accurate...then you can make incremental changes to AFR and timing in the DA tables to gain more performance.

If the calibration process was done correctly, you should be able to change any open-loop AFR target in the DA table and hit it. The log then shows exactly what you are shooting for and whether or not it made a positive change in performance.

good to know i will work on calibration

YMMV of course.

what does that mean?

BTW - I also highly recommend that people get in touch with Tom at ECMTuning and talk to him about flow testing their injectors on his new test rig. It uses DSM injector drivers and custom software, and the results of the test can be quite eye-opening compared to published flow data. As an example, my Blue Max 1350's showed that they needed individual DT values from -40us to +30us, and the actual flow at different voltages was completely different than what FIC publishes for them. Using Tom's numbers, the difference in idle, VE table smoothness, and the AFR curve was night and day.[/QUOTE]

on ECMs website they say the PTE 1000CC flow at 940CC which is what i am running

I agree with everything you said 100%. The slider compensation is something that i want him to work towards zeroing based on his logs immediately.. then once they are zerod and he sees what adding/removing timing in a "general area" (which i'm only expecting for him to be at 100% TPS in the 5K RPM and up ranges where i'm pulling timing with the sliders and only be cruising in the 3500 and lower ranges where i'm adding timing with them. I figure a slider he can remember which one he moved and "undo" it easily and with more confidence then remembering "what cell" he changed in the very beggining.. then once he gets the base we move him onto tracing where he's at in the DA tables and adjusting it there accordingly for his final results/tune

i dont really want to mess with sliders im confident in tracking which part of the log i am at with the track log button
i know the program fairly well, i just was not confident in how much adjustment to make, so far information ahs been great. thank you both! *still reading *

I agree with everything you said 100%. The slider compensation is something that i want him to work towards zeroing based on his logs immediately.. then once they are zerod and he sees what adding/removing timing in a "general area" (which i'm only expecting for him to be at 100% TPS in the 5K RPM and up ranges where i'm pulling timing with the sliders and only be cruising in the 3500 and lower ranges where i'm adding timing with them. I figure a slider he can remember which one he moved and "undo" it easily and with more confidence then remembering "what cell" he changed in the very beggining.. then once he gets the base we move him onto tracing where he's at in the DA tables and adjusting it there accordingly for his final results/tune

i dont really want to mess with sliders im confident in tracking which part of the log i am at with the track log button
i know the program fairly well, i just was not confident in how much adjustment to make, so far information ahs been great. thank you both! *still reading *

 

[turboglenn]

Do you know what cell in the DA nad VE tables you're in by being able to find it by translating boost into the load figures or do you have a way to tracewhere you are while watchingthe log?

Either way if you don't want to mess with the sliders, just upload my .eda file for timing and fuel tables to import into yourECU. then from there you'll have to pull me a WOT 2500 -7k sweep in third and we can go from there judging what to do next.. calibrate the VE table to match the AFR's with what's in the DA tables for fuel i made you. then you should be experiencing kick ass performance that requires a little tweaking, car willbe night and day difference i'm sure of it

YMMV of course

what does this stand for?

usually in cars "your mileagemay vary" and by valley girls its more of a "you make me vommit"

technically the car hsould barely even be moving in boost with negative timing unless something else is WAY off making that timing end BTDC instead of ATDC, becaue at -7* ATDCunder WOT and boost it should be acting like anti lag with the turbo spooling up fast but the car not barely moving because the timing is so far back it's not using and of the combustion early enough to catch PCP by 12-15** ATDC

hurry and load these maps and get ready to have a whole new car in comparison

by the way i wrote both high and octane versionf of each map,the high octane being the more refined in both timing and fuel, so if you choose to utilize the ECU judging octane and what maps to use, turn on the aux maps. but really the HighOct maps are fine for goiod pumpand 20psi easily

 

[snowborder714]

If you want to post a pull log, get a clean one in 3rd gear from 2k to redline. The one you posted isn't ideal as you're missing part of the RPM range.

 

[MY1GDSM]

OP, I have something to add...

Before doing any pulls with the revised timing maps glen provided you. I highly suggest you make some adjustment now to get you AFR in check... .

If you make the appropriate changes now your going to be a whole lot less likely to be running into the problem you had with knock before you went to the crazy low timing map. which from the logs it's evident the affects of your timing by your crazy slow speed increase at WOT.

HELP REMOVED
Sorry... By the last response in the thread it was clear this didn't do the OP any good.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to add these things to your logs Battery, LTFT Mid,LTFT High and, LrndildleAdj

Do you know what cell in the DA nad VE tables you're in by being able to find it by translating boost into the load figures or do you have a way to tracewhere you are while watchingthe log?

Glen if you Click on the Trackdatalog tab that I did a sceenshot of in the top right corner in the associated EDA or ECM file to a Data log. it will show the Load cell you in so that you don't have to do the conversion in your head to figure out the right load in the VE map or just for ease... How ever you look at it

 

[Calan]

what does that mean?

YMMV = your mileage may vary = what works for me may not work for you.

on ECMs website they say the PTE 1000CC flow at 940CC which is what i am running

Those are just generalized numbers. Every set of injectors is different, and each one will require separate dead time values for the best results (on the full version of V3). Although those numbers will get you in the ball park, it's still a good idea to have your set tested by ECMTuning if possible, as it eliminates one more set of variables.

Do you know what cell in the DA nad VE tables you're in by being able to find it by translating boost into the load figures or do you have a way to tracewhere you are while watchingthe log?

Glen, with V3 you can just click the Track Datalog button on each table, and the currently targeted cell(s) will highlight as you scroll through the log.

I also marked the staring point on the AFR that should be your main concern for starters that your leaning out on tip in Everytime.

Yep...something is seriously out of whack there around 4k-5k RPM and 1-4psi of boost. Could be an injector response issue at a certain voltage (always log battery as mentioned), or something similar. Whatever it is, I think it's something mechanical if his WB is accurate. A 40% to 70% required change to the VE table shouldn't be the answer.

Does that look a bit familiar MY1GDSM? Here's a hint.

(BTW - After setting up my injectors based on Tom's suggested individual and global voltage DT values, that issue has pretty much gone away.)




EDIT:

I just realized that this log is still on the crazy timing, so I'll take back my comment on his situation until he gets the timing back to normal. (Notice how that lean spike drop-off follows his extreme timing curve, especially in 3rd). There's no telling what's going on with his AFR until timing is set to something more reasonable.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Ya I remember that...

I figured if he logged Battery voltage he could work on getting the dead times at different voltage more in check an set in the DA tables(never cared to do them "globally" only time I touch them in the ECM is on the fly changes that get applied to DA the next time the car is off)...

I was more saying to adjust his Ve at the high end of the VE map... And pointing out the Big blip at tip in as if it's not just some side affect of the Odd settings it's going to have to be addressed... But even some sort of temporary change just to be safe and on the rich side of things IMO I would be better then nothing.

I'd have to look over the other logs more closely to really make a sound comment on that though... .

 

[Calan]

I was more saying to adjust his Ve at the high end of the VE map... And pointing out the Big blip at tip in as if it's not just some side affect of the Odd settings it's going to have to be addressed... But even some sort of temporary change just to be safe and on the rich side of things IMO I would be better then nothing.

Agreed completelely...even if it's just to temporarily set those VE cells to 110% or something. I really think that spike will mellow out a bit when he gets a better timing curve and maybe more accurate DT values for his injectors.

I sort of got lost in all of this, but has OP even worked on getting global fuel and accurate DT values dialed in via fuel trims and AirFlowPerRev?

 

[Hesh724]

I didnt read all the posts but did you try just opening a most recent log and re-saving the settings from the log?

 

[MY1GDSM]

I'm not sure Criag We should probably just wait for the OP to catch up as I don't think they have finish processing everything you guys where saying before yet...

I didnt read all the posts but did you try just opening a most recent log and re-saving the settings from the log?

If your going to post(more so in the Tech forums) take the time to read everything that has been said.

 

[turboglenn]

yea,i'm holding off on any more ideas until the OP loads the maps Iworked on last night and get the AFR's fixed enough to pull a log

 

[Archer Fabrications]

since there wa more added to this thread, im gonna drive to work this morning with my current map, ill read over what you guys wrote then load the new map. still havent had time to read everythign and i will respond to everything once im at work. thanks

 

[Calan]

since there wa more added to this thread, im gonna drive to work this morning with my current map, ill read over what you guys wrote then load the new map.

Nothing discussed has changed the fact that you need to get that DA timing map fixed ASAP... no matter how you go about it. Either drop Glen's in, or the Evo 8 map, or even the stock 2G map... but something.

 

[turboglenn]

Nothing discussed has changed the fact that you need to get that DA timing map fixed ASAP... no matter how you go about it. Either drop Glen's in, or the Evo 8 map, or even the stock 2G map... but something.

+100000000000

you're only doing WAY more harmthan good keeping that current map in there, anytime you're in boost it's just like taking a torch to your valves and turbine, i'm sure EGT's are through the freaking roof anytime you accelerate hard and it has to be dog ass slow with that timing.. I"m starting to think your base timing is WAY WAY Off,i would get a timing light on that thing ASAP as well as loading either my map or any of the base maps available.

the only posts added are not about new things to try, just discussing what's going on while waiting on you to start moving through the advice we've already given

 

[MY1GDSM]

since there wa more added to this thread, im gonna drive to work this morning with my current map, ill read over what you guys wrote then load the new map. still havent had time to read everythign and i will respond to everything once im at work. thanks

I don't think you have been understanding why I/we said to put the map back to at least Stock... I said that nearly two weeks ago yet your still ignoring this??? this is one of the big reason I don't try to give help to people as much anymore (aside from free time) that I'm not tuning their car anymore as what is the point if someone doesn't listen?

AT this Point I'd say GET A TIMING LIGHT ON IT ASAP wouldn't be a bad Idea to check you physical timing as well while your at it.

As Glen just said your doing more harm then good with your currant timing map.

This is gonna sound kinda backwards
But, Hopefully your base timing has been off if it's actually been advanced you really wouldn't have such the negative affects of the massively retarded timing... I'm curious as to who was doing your "tuning" setting up a map like that though...

 

[turboglenn]

I don't think you have been understanding why I/we said to put the map back to at least Stock... I said that nearly two weeks ago yet your still ignoring this??? this is one of the big reason I don't try to give help to people as much anymore (aside from free time) that I'm not tuning their car anymore as what is the point if someone doesn't listen?

AT this Point I'd say GET A TIMING LIGHT ON IT ASAP wouldn't be a bad Idea to check you physical timing as well while your at it.

As Glen just said your doing more harm then good with your currant timing map.

This is gonna sound kinda backwards
But, Hopefully your base timing has been off if it's actually been advanced you really wouldn't have such the negative affects of the massively retarded timing... I'm curious as to who was doing your "tuning" setting up a map like that though...

I have to agree, i've been on this forum for a LOoong time and have spent many hours typing away trying to help people and often more than seeing people take advice i see the same old pattern of what seems like people "waiting until some one says what they want to hear" to try that suggestion rather than trying a dozen intelligent and probably correct suggestions that came before. Seems as if people want a simple answer that either agrees with what they are thinking or is just the easiest fix, but doen'st matter who says what when only 1/8th of the advice is ever taken to heart and followed.

I am the same way as far as not helping nearly as many people as i use top try to for this very reason, and i see it so often that there's no wonder DSM's have such a bad rap for reliability.

I put in my hour + last night on the maps and my posts, so hopefully i don't get the slap in the face to see the same thread going a week from now and seeing logs with that same -8* under boost timing map a week from now. I'm gonna follow for a while on this but if this has really been two weeks and you haven't followed the same advice everyone's been giving how can you expect to get the problems sorted out? That's making me feel as if i've wasted my time trying to help, and less likely to check back in here in the future anhd see how things have turned out and offer further help. SO for now i'mgiving the benefit of the doubt and hoping you chime in with the timing checked, new map loaded and some updates on calibrating the VE table

Big thanks to Calan for teaching me something new in DSMlink, using the tracklog button makes helping others and writing the maps a lot easier not having to guesstimate where boost falls in the "load range" used by ECMlink

 

[Calan]

Big thanks to Calan for teaching me something new in DSMlink, using the tracklog button makes helping others and writing the maps a lot easier not having to guesstimate where boost falls in the "load range" used by ECMlink

You're welcome, but MY1GDSM actually pointed it out in the post right before mine. I was just too slow while typing.

 

[turboglenn]

Ahhh..i better give credit where due, and i remeber seeing that now too *oops* MY1GDSM, thanks!!

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Agreed completelely...even if it's just to temporarily set those VE cells to 110% or something. I really think that spike will mellow out a bit when he gets a better timing curve and maybe more accurate DT values for his injectors.

I sort of got lost in all of this, but has OP even worked on getting global fuel and accurate DT values dialed in via fuel trims and AirFlowPerRev?

i do have a spare brand new WB that i can try, although i dont think the WB is off its not even 2 months old.

i have adjusted global and dead tweekage a bit, and i have tried dialing in airflow per rev to .26 but was having trouble with it.


heres the deal with this funky settings: i had a friend who built my motor do a tune for me and he is the one that changed the timing tables that way, i dont think we were able to finish the tune due to the knock sensor being bad and other small things that are NOW worked out, including switching from the stock fuel silinoid to the Aeromotive AFPR. ill load the map that glen put on and take a log, but i shouldent be pulling hard with those timing tables yet correct? im re reading all your posts multipul times to get this into my head