Alternative Fuel E85 E-85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Advanced) [MERGED]

[TranceNRG]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR ADVANCED E85 QUESTIONS, NOT "IS IT POSSIBLE?" THE BEGINNER E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THOSE TYPES OF QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/59040-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-beginner-merged-5-24-8-a.html?highlight=E85+MERGED

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE SERIOUSLY WANTING TO DO THE CONVERSION OR HAVE DONE IT AND HAVE MORE DETAILED QUESTIONS. Below is a quick Ethanol/E85 (Advanced) rundown before you start reading through the merged threads, maybe this will answer you question a bit sooner. To quickly navigate this thread for keywords use the "SEARCH THIS THREAD" tool located in the top right hand corner of this post.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

The stock tank and fuel lines will work fine running E85 and you don't have to change timing on your car when you convert to E85. The smallest pump you'll want to run is a Walbro 255 (rewired), its convenient because it drops right in with a cheap install kit and its a bit cheaper then a Bosch. When you upgrade to such a high flowing fuel pump you'll also need to grab a adjustable fuel pressure regulator (AFPR) to keep everything in check. I also suggest (its not necessary) to upgrade to a FueLab fuel filter with a 40 micron metal element, the Ethanol will eat the OE paper filter over time.

Depending on what time of year it is or your location will determine what type of Ethanol you have available at the pump. Gas stations receive E100 (100% Ethanol) year round and then blend it with 87 octane gasoline and depending on the blend (E85 or E70) it will change the ethanol content rating, octane, and specific gravity of the fuel itself. The typical blends are summer (E85) and winter (E70) which is the MINIMUM amount of ethanol blended with gasoline.

Winter blend (E70)- 70% E100 (113oct) and 30% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 105.
Summer blend (E85)- 85% E100 (113oct) and 15% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 109.​

FINDING OUT WHAT INJECTORS YOU NEED
Since the chemical makeup of ethanol is different you must account for it in your injectors flow rating. To do so you use the following equation by inputing the injectors flow rated on gas multiplied by 0.67. For example, I'll use 750cc injectors and estimate the flow capabilities of them running E85.

750 x 0.67 = 502.5​

After you make the switch to E85 your 750cc injectors will flow 502cc which you'd find out isn't even enough to support the airflow of a 16g turbo.

For you mathematicians, you can also do the equation backwards if you know what size of injectors you would need for you turbo setup on pump gas. For example, a 20g turbos max airflow is 52 lbs/min so on pump gas you would need 880cc injectors to support it.

"pump rated injector flow" x 0.67 = 880
"pump rated injector flow" = 880 / 0.67
"pump rated injector flow" = 1313cc​

After doing the above equation you find that a 1300cc injector will flow about 880cc which is what you want to support a 20g, so before you convert to E85 you need to get 1300cc injectors!​

Like the title says, what did you use to convert to E85?

 

[knochgoon24]

You can also get injector "black goo".

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The cause is up for debate right now.

The severity varies from nothing to what's shown above.

 

[noV8undrDIShood]

^^^ wow i have been running e85 for about four months,, i am going to pull my injectors out tomoro and check that out

 

[airmail96]

Write that's the
First time I saw that goo
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

 

[noV8undrDIShood]

does this "black goo" ruin the injector or is it possible to clean them some how

 

[mike hobbs]

You can tune very agressive but you have to watch the cylinder temps, which will cause a hole in the piston to burnt rings. but the goo ive hurd of it to thats why they also say change your fuel lines. but if done right its very nice ive rode in a e85 20g setup at 26 psi and damn it was unbelievable.

 

[youngdrivin]

I wanna run E85

 

[602gsx]

Ok thanx guys!

 

[2slow4utsi]

does this "black goo" ruin the injector or is it possible to clean them some how

Yeah you can soak the tips in regular gasoline or carb cleaner. I've heard you can also use seafoam but I wouldn't condone doing any of these methods until you research them further.

 

[noV8undrDIShood]

^^^thanks or the info

 

[TSi Kid]

Pros=It's F'n amazing
Cons=It's hard to get

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/388204-pros-cons-e85.html

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/358572-trying-out-e85.html

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/272725-e85-v-pump-gas-15-more-boost.html

There are so many threads, not trying to be a D but your search option must be broken i'm guessing

 

[Clinical]

E85 at 2 places local here

It's sweet stuff.
It's basically known as 110 octane race fuel, except at the pump and cheap.
You get less mileage but it generally costs less. Here in iowa it costs way less than the 3.00 a gallon gas/ 3.30 a gallon 93 octane. It only costs 2.25 at the pump here.

I never get knock.
I did have some injector gunk, but the car had been running on e85 for 3 years. Just cleaned it by hand and went back on the road.

Like I said, it's literally race fuel for a cheaper price and at the pump for our cars.
Just need a good fuel pump, one walbro 255 will do in most situations, and some bigger injectors. I recommend 1000cc or better. I run 1150cc's and see 83% duty cycle at 25psi of boost with E85 making around 475whp, without fuel pressure on my FPR bumped up too much.

It's amazing for what it is, if you're looking to go fast i highly recommend it

 

[TSi Kid]

It's basically known as 110 octane race fuel, except at the pump and cheap.

I wouldn't go wild, its about 105

 

[96awd]

The goo is said to be a regional thing. No one i know in STL area hasn't been "goo'd"

 

[proteusx301]

I've heard problems with if your car sits a lot, the E85 can go stale in the tank. Any truth to this?

 

[96awd]

It can eat at the pump meaning of course you'll need a new one. It's best to run like 1 tank of pump gas for ever 4-5 tanks of e85

 

[xiteamxi]

never herd about the ''goo'' and its getting hard to get

 

[gofer]

It's damn near impossible not to accidently run into an E85 thread searching here and its even harder not to find something on Google, just type E85 and you've got a zillion hits!

Your not asking how to successfully search (but in my opinion you should), your asking the pros and cons of E85 so I'll answer your question and give you examples and fixes to the CONS. I'll start with the CONS and then give you the fixes to them and then I'll discuss the PROS so I can end things on a good note.

CONS

1. Holds less chemical energy per volume than gasoline which means its less fuel efficient giving you crappy gas mileage.
2. The chemical makeup of Ethanol is different than gasoline so you lose approximately 43% of your injector size and you'll need a bigger fuel pump as well.
3. In cold weather or even after the engine has been sitting overnight E85 has a hard time igniting without significantly richening up AFR's to start the car, this makes for a hard time initially getting the car to start up.
4. The black goo that everyone dreads.
5. E85 stations can be few and far between depending on where you live.

Fixes to the CONS...

- Heres something I did to show the added cost per mile, miles per dollar, and cost per year of running E85 over gasoline. This is of course assuming that E85 and gasoline remain the same in cost (I used $2.89ga for E85 and $3.47ga for 91oct).

E85 STATS
E85 Price: $2.89ga
E85 MPG: 18mpg
E85 cost per mile:$0.161
E85 miles per dollar: 6.228​

91oct STATS
Gas Price: $3.47ga
Gas MPG: 24mpg
Gas cost per mile: $0.145
Gas miles per dollar: 6.916 Best​

How everything adds up...
Miles you drive per year: 12,000
Cost per year, fueled with E85: $1,926
Cost per year, fueled with gas: $1,735
If you don't follow the above information just look at the red highlighted numbers at the end. Assuming that I drive 12,000 miles a year and gas prices remain the same (impossible) that I spend $191 more a year running E85.

- The chemical make-up of E85 reduces injector flow by 43% but odds are your planning on upgrading your injectors and fuel pump anyway, you'll just want to account for the loss before you buy them.

- Its not a myth, E85 does make it seem damn near impossible to start your car some mornings when its cold out but there is a fix. Its possible to setup a "choke" to richen up the fuel mixture in cold weather/cold start scenarios. It just requires a 1g vacuum solenoid (P/N: MD103867) and a place to put it into your t-stat housing, some 1g's already have the solenoid in the housing.

- The black goo, whether you get it or not, is possible to get rid of without pulling the injectors so it really isn't a big deal. Most, including me, believe that the goo comes from the E85 station that you fill up at and not from crap in the gas tank itself. After running E85 for about 3 months I pulled the injectors and noticed the famous goo on the tip of them and made a note of it to pull the injectors with every oil change to clean it off. Doing this for a few months I noticed that if I ran a tank of 91oct through the fuel system once every 3,000 miles the black goo would burn off.

-Heres a map ---> E85 stations​

PROS
You can run more boost and timing advance running the proper supporting mods than you ever could using regular old gasoline. If you've got an E85 station close and planned on upgrading fuel injectors, pump, and getting tuning software theres no reason you shouldn't run E85 since you can free up A LOT of horsepower.

I wouldn't go wild, its about 105

...and I wouldn't give false information by assuming...

E85 stations have to advertise a minimum pump octane rating (AKI) and ethanol percentage. My local E85 station, as does every station around the country, advertises a minimum octane rating of 105 and E70.

At the gas station E100 is mixed with 87oct pump and depending on the blend (E85 or E70) it will change the ethanol content rating, octane, and SG of the fuel.

Winter blend (E70)- 70% E100 (113oct) and 30% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 105.
Summer blend (E85)- 85% E100 (113oct) and 15% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 109.​

 

[gofer]

E85 does go bad and faster than regular gasoline because of the high concentration of ethanol alcohol, it will pull moisture out of the air faster which contaminates it.

The black goo isn't rare at all and actually happens to most of the tuners you talk to who are running E85.

TSi Kid, enough answering questions your giving incorrect answers too. Insights always good but only if you know 100% w.t.f. your talking about, because at this point your just spreading wrong information. Now future DSM'rs that find this thread reading up on E85 have to sift through your false information.

 

[noV8undrDIShood]

hey gofer.. let me ask you a question since your in here.. my car should be done thie spring and i will running e85.. i had 2 stations "close" to me that sold it.. one right in town and the other 5-6 minutes away.. well the one in town dumped it's e85.. so i was thinking about getting a 50 gallon drum and filing up and then keeping it in my garage. (this will not be a daily driver) would it be allright to keep or would it seperate or anything...?

(probably wouldnt fill full 50 gallon)

 

[TSi Kid]

E85 does go bad and faster than regular gasoline because of the high concentration of ethanol alcohol, it will pull moisture out of the air faster which contaminates it.

The black goo isn't rare at all and actually happens to most of the tuners you talk to who are running E85.

TSi Kid, enough answering questions your giving incorrect answers too. Insights always good but only if you know 100% w.t.f. your talking about, because at this point your just spreading wrong information. Now future DSM'rs that find this thread reading up on E85 have to sift through your false information.

It depends on how long it is sitting for. I have let my car sit for about 2 and a half weeks and I couldn't notice a thing. It wouldn't go stale, it goes bad quicker but nothing at an extreme rate.

I've never had this problem nor have the 4 other local dsmers. And then to spread out more, I have not had one friend to have this occurance.
It's still a very debatable problem.

 

[96awd]

Imo, some should make a sticky with all the need to know basics on running e85. Many people want to start threads so a sticky would be perfect.

Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G using Tapatalk

 

[gofer]

How is that a false assuption? As of right now, it's 105.

The OP lives in Phoenix, AZ which is straight East from where you live so the class of Ethanol is the same since your on the same Latitude. Its funny you say that "AS OF RIGHT NOW" its 105oct since your assuming you get the winter blend of Ethanol in Phoenix this time of year, but you couldn't be more wrong. Phoenix, AZ as well as Avondale, AZ are both SOUTH of Latitude 34* so you NEVER EVER EVER get below Class 2 Ethanol which is a minimum of 74% Ethanol.

See for yourself ---> E85 Regional Chart

Again, insight on the subject is always good but WRONG information just clutters up the thread and confuses people.

 

[knochgoon24]

You can store E85 in pretty much the same way as gasoline.

 

[TSi Kid]

Class 1 is 106-105 octane
Class 2 is 105-104 octane
Class 3 is 104-103 octane

In some places the octane level can fluctuate, but as for the 2 pumps closest to me ethenol is generally about 105 octane

Again, insight on the subject is always good but WRONG information just clutters up the thread and confuses people.

It's not wrong or confusing, I'm still not seeing anything where i'm blatently wrong?

 

[gofer]

hey gofer.. let me ask you a question since your in here.. my car should be done thie spring and i will running e85.. i had 2 stations "close" to me that sold it.. one right in town and the other 5-6 minutes away.. well the one in town dumped it's e85.. so i was thinking about getting a 50 gallon drum and filing up and then keeping it in my garage. (this will not be a daily driver) would it be allright to keep or would it seperate or anything...?

(probably wouldnt fill full 50 gallon)

This is a TERRIBLE idea for many reasons (fire hazard, hazmat spill, etc.) but besides the obvious, by storing a 55 gallon drum of it in your house your eliminating the convenience of using it. The only reason why I stick to E85 and not run race gas is because I don't have to go through the trouble of having a barrel of gas in my garage. If a E85 station isn't close then just stick to pump gas and use race gas at the track or on the dyno when your tuning it.

Read this ---> Handling, Storing, & Dispensing E85