Alternative Fuel E85 E-85 Ethanol Corn Gas E70 (Advanced) [MERGED]

[TranceNRG]

THIS WILL BE RESERVED FOR ADVANCED E85 QUESTIONS, NOT "IS IT POSSIBLE?" THE BEGINNER E85 THREAD IS HERE FOR THOSE TYPES OF QUESTIONS ---> http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/59040-e85-ethanol-corn-gas-beginner-merged-5-24-8-a.html?highlight=E85+MERGED

HOPEFULLY THIS WILL MAKE THE INFORMATION MORE CENTRALIZED AND EASIER TO FIND FOR THE DSM'rs WHO ARE SERIOUSLY WANTING TO DO THE CONVERSION OR HAVE DONE IT AND HAVE MORE DETAILED QUESTIONS. Below is a quick Ethanol/E85 (Advanced) rundown before you start reading through the merged threads, maybe this will answer you question a bit sooner. To quickly navigate this thread for keywords use the "SEARCH THIS THREAD" tool located in the top right hand corner of this post.

THANKS,

GOFER

__________________________________________________​

The stock tank and fuel lines will work fine running E85 and you don't have to change timing on your car when you convert to E85. The smallest pump you'll want to run is a Walbro 255 (rewired), its convenient because it drops right in with a cheap install kit and its a bit cheaper then a Bosch. When you upgrade to such a high flowing fuel pump you'll also need to grab a adjustable fuel pressure regulator (AFPR) to keep everything in check. I also suggest (its not necessary) to upgrade to a FueLab fuel filter with a 40 micron metal element, the Ethanol will eat the OE paper filter over time.

Depending on what time of year it is or your location will determine what type of Ethanol you have available at the pump. Gas stations receive E100 (100% Ethanol) year round and then blend it with 87 octane gasoline and depending on the blend (E85 or E70) it will change the ethanol content rating, octane, and specific gravity of the fuel itself. The typical blends are summer (E85) and winter (E70) which is the MINIMUM amount of ethanol blended with gasoline.

Winter blend (E70)- 70% E100 (113oct) and 30% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 105.
Summer blend (E85)- 85% E100 (113oct) and 15% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 109.​

FINDING OUT WHAT INJECTORS YOU NEED
Since the chemical makeup of ethanol is different you must account for it in your injectors flow rating. To do so you use the following equation by inputing the injectors flow rated on gas multiplied by 0.67. For example, I'll use 750cc injectors and estimate the flow capabilities of them running E85.

750 x 0.67 = 502.5​

After you make the switch to E85 your 750cc injectors will flow 502cc which you'd find out isn't even enough to support the airflow of a 16g turbo.

For you mathematicians, you can also do the equation backwards if you know what size of injectors you would need for you turbo setup on pump gas. For example, a 20g turbos max airflow is 52 lbs/min so on pump gas you would need 880cc injectors to support it.

"pump rated injector flow" x 0.67 = 880
"pump rated injector flow" = 880 / 0.67
"pump rated injector flow" = 1313cc​

After doing the above equation you find that a 1300cc injector will flow about 880cc which is what you want to support a 20g, so before you convert to E85 you need to get 1300cc injectors!​

Like the title says, what did you use to convert to E85?

 

[2gGSXEclipse]

Those who use e-85 how long have you been using it. Also how many fuel pumps have you gone through? Walbro pumps are not made to run alchohal. I find myself changing a fuel pump about everyyear. Not to bad though $90 a year for the extra amount of ponies your making over pump gas.

 

[gofer]

I've been running it since March and on a 4yr old Walbro 255 fuel pump as well, I average about 16 to 17mpg driving it to work and back daily which is mostly highway I just keep it under 20% throttle.

 

[MY1GDSM]

I've been running E85 for around 3 years on the same 255hp pump .... I recently pulled my pump and injectors. No black goo on the Injector tips and it all looked like it did way back when.....

 

[turboglenn]

When i made the switch i had already been running haltech EMS, wally 255LP in tank (mustang style), had 720 injectors and stock fuel lines with an AFPR

After the E85 conversion which required anywhere from 15 - 26% fueling changes (richer) through the entire map depending on the load and AFR desired there.

When i thought i was running out of injector i went to a set of FIC 1000cc's, but still ran out of fuel at the same PSI so i decided to convert to dual wally 255HP pumps parallel in tank..

When i did this i brazed larger lines into the hangar after remocing the old ones.. then went from -6 right off the pumps to a "Y" right ouside the tank and continued on with -6AN feed line (some would say 2 x 6's into one 6 makes no sense but the senseit made for me was a.) cost B.) what was instock. c.) the fact that it will flow enough E85 to support my goals of 500 HP DD'er

NOw , Timing... timing is one thing i have mixed reviews on.,... under luight throttle and cruise i only bumped it up a few degrees (2-3*) as i was already in a range that was a bit agressive for upmp fuels anyway... but in the top end i ended upnwith about 5* more timing EVERYWHERE under boost, and in order to do this without knock i had realized that leaner is the key... e85 loves to be run at about 12.5:1 under WOT and heavy boost, there it will give you the best timing..get much richer and the timing will suffer due to rich knock

that's my e85 conversion in a nutshell

EDIT, : And this is importnat, you wqill clog fiuel filters regularly and fast.. i remcomend getting the fuelab kit with a -6 or -8 fitting from filter to rail and getting the SS mesh element (obut clog your stock one up first, it will happen in 3 tanks) the in a month or 2 the next filter will start to show a restriction too, after 2 stockers is when i put trhe fuellab unit in, since then it's only gottne dirty once and iall i did was remove the elemntn, soak it in laqxquer thinner and then use ait blower to clean it out

 

[ewyss]

Ok first off i was wondering if there are any full fuel system upgrades made for a 1g to run e85. And i was also wondering if i would need bigger than my 750 injectors to run e85 aswell, thanks any advice or info about e85 would be great.

 

[WORPeclipse]

You are supposed to change your tank out to a plastic tank. You are also supposed to change out your fuel lines. You have to change the timing on your car to make it run tight. I have also seen some pumps say n works with e85 so im not sure about pumps. Could just be a advertising scam too.


Im lookin at swappin over to it also and runnin a fuel cell. Right now im havein trouble find it around me anywhere though.

 

[WickedQuikAWD]

I cant speak to a specific fuel system, although i am looking into it. You will likely need bigger injectors because alcohol is roughly half the stoichiometric efficiency of gasoline. This means that you will need to supply nearly twice as much fuel to get the same AFR (air fuel ratio). Alcohol also is known to eat away seals and gaskets that are designed for gasoline, so changes will need to be made in that regard.

E85 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Using E85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiometric fuel ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline."

 

[ewyss]

so do you guys think that i should really switch to e85, or should i just switch to meth injection, i heard e85 was safer, because meth injection can cause cylinder 1 to go out because of uneven spray pattern...is there any truth in this. and would i need a new rail and fpr thanks guys for the comments

 

[91boostfedGSX]

havent heard of ## question on the meth injection...i personally would go with e85 but alot of the car is going to need upgraded and not just the fuel system

 

[ewyss]

havent heard of ## question on the meth injection...i personally would go with e85 but alot of the car is going to need upgraded and not just the fuel system

Well what else exactly would need to be uprgaded or replaced than fuel components? Does anyone have a realistic ballpark price on how much it would these other things cost?

thanks

 

[rock1t]

alright. long story short, since no one here has not researched E85 and or knows very little about it.


E85 is a gift from the car god's. It is a higher octane, which means it's going to burn longer in the cylinder which actually comes to one simple equation.

more air (boost) + more fuel(e85) + more timing = more power.

wow, that sounds like i am from kentucky.

but E85 is 85% ethanol (corn alchohol) and 15% gasoline. Holds an octane rating of 100.

To run E85, you will need large injectors. Start at 1000cc's and trust me, you will run out if you upgrade your turbo, which means you will need larger. Fuel lines I would highly recommend to go with -6an on both your feed and return line. Fuel pump wise, rock a bosch 044 and never look back, and if you ever need more fuel, rock the dual pump set up. A stock gas tank will work, but i am a big fan of fuel cells.

 

[ewyss]

alright. long story short, since no one here has not researched E85 and or knows very little about it.


E85 is a gift from the car god's. It is a higher octane, which means it's going to burn longer in the cylinder which actually comes to one simple equation.

more air (boost) + more fuel(e85) + more timing = more power.

wow, that sounds like i am from kentucky.

but E85 is 85% ethanol (corn alchohol) and 15% gasoline. Holds an octane rating of 100.

To run E85, you will need large injectors. Start at 1000cc's and trust me, you will run out if you upgrade your turbo, which means you will need larger. Fuel lines I would highly recommend to go with -6an on both your feed and return line. Fuel pump wise, rock a bosch 044 and never look back, and if you ever need more fuel, rock the dual pump set up. A stock gas tank will work, but i am a big fan of fuel cells.

so will i need a new fpr as well, i found this kit can you tell me if it would work for e85 if i got bigger injectors thanks again for this info if was very helpful i think im going to run e85.

FFWD Connection - Race Injuns That Will Freeze Your Brain

sorry the link didn't work in my last post, so here it is.

 

[ramsack]

That's expensive. I would try to find a local metal supplier and try to find some 3/8" stainless tubing. But that's just me, and not wanting to run a damn hose under my car. A different filter will be needed. Something with a metal screen, and not a cellulose fiber element. Auto parts stores even have the tubing, but it comes in shorter lengths and needs to be coupled.

 

[rock1t]

That's expensive. I would try to find a local metal supplier and try to find some 3/8" stainless tubing. But that's just me, and not wanting to run a damn hose under my car. A different filter will be needed. Something with a metal screen, and not a cellulose fiber element. Auto parts stores even have the tubing, but it comes in shorter lengths and needs to be coupled.

I have ran both the hard piping -6an, and the stainless braided -6an. I will tell you personally that the stainless braided is much easier to run (costs a bit more) and actually will contour your chassis better, and you can use metal zipties to hold it up.

Also on filters, I am still using the aeromotive 80 micron, which is a paper element, as well as the 100micron that's before the pump.

 

[ramsack]

It's easier to run, but far from safe on a street car. Anything can be contoured just fine, it's just the amount of time someone wants to spend marking where to put the minuscule bends in it.

 

[99gst_racer]

You are supposed to change your tank out to a plastic tank. You are also supposed to change out your fuel lines. You have to change the timing on your car to make it run tight. I have also seen some pumps say n works with e85 so im not sure about pumps. Could just be a advertising scam too.

Im lookin at swappin over to it also and runnin a fuel cell. Right now im havein trouble find it around me anywhere though.

You already have a plastic fuel tank. All AWD 2Gs do.

 

[codeofdastreets]

What mod"s do you have done to your car? And for everyones info Street Tuner Motorsports sells kits for running e85..

 

[ewyss]

You already have a plastic fuel tank. All AWD 2Gs do.

I don't have a 2g tho i have a 1g (92 tsi awd)

What mod"s do you have done to your car? And for everyones info Street Tuner Motorsports sells kits for running e85..

As the car sits it is mostly stock, it has maft, turbo back 3", wideband, and boost gauge, and dsm link v3. I have going on in the next two weeks a 20g turbo, 750cc injectors, punishment racing short route kit, o2 stainless dump, and i want to buy some cams like 272's having a hard time finding some used ones that are in new condition. I would like to buy new but im on college budget.

 

[99gst_racer]

I don't have a 2g tho i have a 1g (92 tsi awd)

I know. My post was directed toward the guy I quoted.

 

[ewyss]

I know. My post was directed toward the guy I quoted.

Oh sorry , im new to the site and not used to the quote thing yet.

 

[gofer]

All I can say is

The stock tank and fuel lines will work fine running E85 and you don't have to change timing on your car when you convert to E85 like someone mentioned above. The smallest pump you'll want to run is a Walbro 255 (rewired), its convenient because it drops right in with a cheap install kit and its a bit cheaper then a Bosch. When you upgrade to such a high flowing fuel pump you'll also need to grab a adjustable fuel pressure regulater (AFPR) to keep everything in check. I also suggest (its not necessary) to upgrade to a FueLab fuel filter with a metal element, the Ethanol will eat the OE paper filter over time.

Depending on what time of year it is or your location will determine what type of Ethanol you have available at the pump. Gas stations receive E100 (100% Ethanol) year round and then blend it with 87 octane gasoline and depending on the blend (E85 or E70) it will change the ethanol content rating, octane, and specific gravity of the fuel itself. The typical blends are summer (E85) and winter (E70) which is the MINIMUM amount of ethanol blended with gasoline.

Winter blend (E70)- 70% E100 (113oct) and 30% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 105.
Summer blend (E85)- 85% E100 (113oct) and 15% pump (87oct) with a final octane rating of 109.​

FINDING OUT WHAT INJECTORS YOU NEED
As far as setup goes with injectors, your currently running 750cc injectors that are rated to flow 750cc on gasoline. Since the chemical makeup of ethanol is different you must account for it in your injectors flow rating. To do so you use the following equation by inputing the injectors flow rated on gas multiplied by 0.67. Since the OP currently has 750cc injectors we'll estimate the flow capabilities of them running E85.

750 x 0.67 = 502.5​

After you make the switch to E85 your 750cc injectors will flow 502cc which you'd find out isn't even enough to support the airflow of a 16g turbo. The 20g's max airflow is around 52 lbs/min so you'll want a set of injectors that will flow around 880cc but on E85 so do the math.

"pump rated injector flow" x 0.67 = 880
"pump rated injector flow" = 880 / 0.67
"pump rated injector flow" = 1313cc​

After doing the above equation you find that a 1300cc injector will flow about 880cc which is what you want to support that 20g, so before you convert to E85 you need to get 1300cc injectors!

You have dsmlink v3 which is the best tuning software for a DSM as far as I'm concerned. Your options are endless when it comes to making changes to fuel settings so you should feel comfortable in the decision to switch to E85. If your looking for a what do I need to convert to E85 list for your setup here you go...

-Walbro 255 fuel pump
-FueLab adjustable fuel pressure regulator
-1300cc injectors​

There is a TON of mis-information in here and so the story goes, if you don't know what the hell your talking about don't post. I'm not all wise and knowing but who in the hell even runs E85 on their DSM that has posted in this thread so far?

 

[96awd]

e85 in my opinion is better than meth. Besides losing mpg's and the smell (which smells good of course) it's alot better. you need at least a wally 255 and many people will use over 1000cc for the flow. depends what your goals are really. You don't need to upgrade fuel rail or lines. there's many people that run with stock fuel rail and lines. 2gDSM made 660 on stock fuel rail and lines. with a wally 255 and inline 044. can't remember what size injectors but it was all on a bws366 i think. I'm going to keep my stock fuel lines and fuel rail and just run 1450cc injectors with afpr. a 255 pump has seen been behind many cars pushing out over 550 just can't push the crack limit on the pump

 

[602gsx]

The only information I can find about e85 is that it eliminates knock. A friend of mine said that there are cons he won't tell me and icant find any online. Any links or forums?

 

[widsmer]

I have heard of less fuel economy

 

[greengoblin]

Cons

Need for fuel system upgrade ( it requires bigger injectors and fuel pump because you need more fuel since Alcohol fuels is less efficient
you tend to have poorer gas mileage
Need tuning capabilities
Cold starts can be a bit harder
Fewer stations carry it
If you switch back and fourth you need to tunes do so.

Pros

It like RACE FUEL at the pump and cheap!

Much less prone to knock
So you can run aggressive tunes maxing out your a set up.
What more could you want.