Switching from Eibach to H&R Springs

[Artago]

Would it be possible to fit the OE Sports on a AWD TSi? (Question for the DSMWisemen)
I really want these springs but they only seem to make them for the 2WD's. If the OE's can't be fitted on the AWD, then would the non-OE Sports be a good alternative? I don't want to drop the car too much. Thanks, Tom.

 

[asian312]

I run these on my '99 GSX without any problems. The later 2G (97-99) FWD and AWD used the same spring rates. For the 95-96 models they were slightly different.

 

[Artago]

I run these on my '99 GSX without any problems. The later 2G (97-99) FWD and AWD used the same spring rates. For the 95-96 models they were slightly different.

So the OE Sports will fit on a AWD then? Cause Everywhere I've checked they were listed as FWD application. Thanks, Tom.

 

[president95]

Yes, you can use the OE sports on the AWD cars

and I too would love to know the actual rates for the OE sports, as I have always read they are 430/260

 

[Artago]

President95: Well they're supposed to be 15-20% stiffer then stock. So I doubt they are 430/260.

Romeen: Can you post some pictures of the drop on the OE's? Also, did you have to used a camber kit on the 1" drop?

Thanks, Tom.

PS: I really wish we had the spring rates for H&R springs. Oh well.

 

[romeen]

Romeen: Can you post some pictures of the drop on the OE's? Also, did you have to used a camber kit on the 1" drop?QUOTE]

No problem.

I did end up using a camber kit in the rear (longer bolts with washers/spacers between the upper control arm and body of car) to get the rear within specs (ended up with just a hair over -1.5* both sides).

As of now I have no camber kit for the front. My front camber is -1.43* on the left side and -1.82* on the right. This is more than the recommended range but the car handles quite well right now. However, I may end up getting a front kit somewhere down the road.

Here are some pictures I just took. I wish I would have taken pictures previously with the Eibach's still on there for comparison. I will say that IMO the car looked better when it was sitting lower with the Eibachs (noticeably smaller fender gap). But in the context of function and everyday practicality I feel the OE Sports make more sense, for me at least.

 

[Artago]

Awesome, thanks for the Pics Romeen. Just a few more questions. That looks like more then a 1 inch drop (could just be me). Could you measure the gap between the tire and the fender on all 4 wheels and post the results? That way I can compare it to the stock gap that I have right now and figure out how much it actually lowers. Also, how many washers/spacers did you use? In other words, how much did you have to space it out? (in inches or millimeters) I'm also curious as to why you got 2 different camber measurements on the front. Shouldn't it be the same (assuming both sides got lowered the same amount)? Thanks romeen. Tom.

PS: Looks good.

 

[romeen]

Awesome, thanks for the Pics Romeen. Just a few more questions. That looks like more then a 1 inch drop (could just be me). Could you measure the gap between the tire and the fender on all 4 wheels and post the results? That way I can compare it to the stock gap that I have right now and figure out how much it actually lowers. Also, how many washers/spacers did you use? In other words, how much did you have to space it out? (in inches or millimeters) I'm also curious as to why you got 2 different camber measurements on the front. Shouldn't it be the same (assuming both sides got lowered the same amount)? Thanks romeen. Tom.

PS: Looks good.

As jtmcinder pointed out in post #11, the fender gap can be affected by different size wheels and different tire profiles. So to eliminate inconsistencies for the purpose of comparison I measured from the center of the wheel straight up to the bottom edge of fender. Here are the results:

Rt. Front: 13.75"
Rt. Rear: 13.50"
Lt. Front: 13.50"
Lt. Rear: 13.50"

BTW, I took the exact same measurement immediately after the install and it looks like the left front has dropped about 1/4" since then. The other corners have remained the same.

At first I was bothered by the fact that the front seemed level or slightly higher than the rear. But looking at the car overall it doesn't appear that way. I also measured the distance between the ground and the rocker panel at the front and rear. This suggests that the rear is indeed a bit higher (about 6" bilaterally for the rear and about 5" for both front sides).

As for the thickness of the washers that I used to space the upper control arms out I can tell you almost EXACTLY (I still have several of the washers I used so I just took my digital caliper to them ). I used three 2.5mm (.1") washers for each mounting point for a total of 7.5mm (.3") at each of the four mounting spots.

 

[Artago]

Awesome, Thanks.

 

[Artago]

Based on the info on this thread. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245533&highlight=lowering+amounts

And assuming OE Sports are 15-20% stiffer then stock. I came up with these spring rates for OE Sports.

95-96 2G AWD
Front: 304.75 - 318
Rear: 186.3 - 194.4

97-99 2G AWD
Front: 282.9 - 295.2
Rear: 173.65 - 181.2

The average across the board is:

Front: 300
Rear: 184

When I pick these up I'll try to see if I can find a spring tester somewhere and confirm this estimate.

Tom.

 

[romeen]

Front: 300
Rear: 184
[/B]
When I pick these up I'll try to see if I can find a spring tester somewhere and confirm this estimate.

If you do this, I and many other DSM'ers will be extremely grateful to you.

Just to update, I am still extremely happy I made the switch to the OE Sports. Ride quality seems slightly better but cornering seems much tighter. To sum it up I would say that the tight, responsive feel of the OE Sports has given me an increased sense of confidence in the twisties and my car is just funner to drive. And of course it is much more practical and functional now for daily driving. I don't scrape on driveways and speedbumps anymore (except for the most severe ones).

One quick story to illustrate. A local highway transition with about a 45* medium radius left with a dip in the middle. At the dip it is slightly banked the wrong way (I think there was unexpected settling of the ground here). With the Prokit the car would wallow through this section and it felt like the entire car wanted to slide sideways, in particular the rear. With the OE Sports there is very little if any wallow and the car feels very stable and is able to maintain it's "composure" much better. In all fairness I have to admit that much if not most of this may be a result of the recent alignment more so than the different characteristics between the springs.

I've also been playing around with the settings on my Illuminas. Set at 1 (softest) the ride harshness isn't too bad at all. Even some family members and a girlfriend didn't complain about the ride.

Setting the Illuminas to 5 (stiffest) makes the car feel fantastic! So tight, good feedback and the car remains very composed through akward situations. Even though the center of gravity is now higher, the car seems to have less roll, dive and squat. Ride quality at this setting is of course harsher but IMO not at all intolerable or aggravating.

I know these are all subjective findings so take it as you will. Hopefully my experiences with the Prokit and now the OE Sports will be helpful to other guys who are considering these springs.

Good work Tom.

 

[Artago]

No no, good work to you romeen. You've convinced me to get the OE/Illumina combo. Cheers, Tom.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I'm really surprised how much those springs lowered your car. It's so much lower looking than mine. With Prokits/Illuminas I'm at least 2x as tall in the rear, but like you, have uneven lowering in the front. My driver's side is slammed, yet only has -.07* camber after the drop and my higher left side has twice the negative camber for whatever reason. You would think the lower the side the more camber on that side.

I see your car follows a similar trend. It has been indicated to me by other members that the bushing in the lower compression arm needs to be pressed out and then back in flipped 180* to alleviate some of these unexplainable circumstances. Though your's turned out quite good, not to mention quite good looking, so I don't know if you intend to complete that modification down the road.

Great job though,

EDIT: what are your toe settings?

 

[romeen]

I'm really surprised how much those springs lowered your car. It's so much lower looking than mine. With Prokits/Illuminas I'm at least 2x as tall in the rear, but like you, have uneven lowering in the front. My driver's side is slammed, yet only has -.07* camber after the drop and my higher left side has twice the negative camber for whatever reason. You would think the lower the side the more camber on that side.

I see your car follows a similar trend. It has been indicated to me by other members that the bushing in the lower compression arm needs to be pressed out and then back in flipped 180* to alleviate some of these unexplainable circumstances. Though your's turned out quite good, not to mention quite good looking, so I don't know if you intend to complete that modification down the road.

Great job though,

EDIT: what are your toe settings?

If you think it's low now you should have seen it before when the Prokits were on there!

That's very weird that the rear of your car is sitting so high. Have you double checked the install? One note about my car, in those pictures I have different tires in the front and back (I know, I know, this is not a good idea but financial considerations put me in a bind at the time). Anyway, the Kumho MX's in the front and the Bridgestone SO-2's in the back are both stock size (205/55/16) but the Bridgestones are about 1/5" smaller in total (outer) diameter making the rear sit a bit lower than it otherwise would if I were running the same tires front and back. I will be getting Kumhos for the back soon and I can take another side picture for comparison.

At this point I don't plan on doing the bushing mod. However, I think I may get a front camber kit in the future.

My toe values ended up being:

Lt Front .03*
Rt Front .02*
Lt Rear .11*
Rt Rear .19*

For anyone interested here are a few other values (which frankly I don't completely understand ):

Front Cross Camber .39*
Front Total Toe .05*
Rear Toe .30*
Rear Thrust Angle -.04*

 

[EnticivEclipse]

you guys got pics?

I have been planning to go with this setup for a long time...

 

[PieEyedPiper]

If you think it's low now you should have seen it before when the Prokits were on there!

That's very weird that the rear of your car is sitting so high. Have you double checked the install? One note about my car, in those pictures I have different tires in the front and back (I know, I know, this is not a good idea but financial considerations put me in a bind at the time). Anyway, the Kumho MX's in the front and the Bridgestone SO-2's in the back are both stock size (205/55/16) but the Bridgestones are about 1/5" smaller in total (outer) diameter making the rear sit a bit lower than it otherwise would if I were running the same tires front and back. I will be getting Kumhos for the back soon and I can take another side picture for comparison.

At this point I don't plan on doing the bushing mod. However, I think I may get a front camber kit in the future.

My toe values ended up being:

Lt Front .03*
Rt Front .02*
Lt Rear .11*
Rt Rear .19*

For anyone interested here are a few other values (which frankly I don't completely understand ):

Front Cross Camber .39*
Front Total Toe .05*
Rear Toe .30*
Rear Thrust Angle -.04*

Your rear toe measurements look pretty out there. AFAIK, the factory spec Rear Toe is 0.00" to 0.12" each side Total Toe: 0" to 0.24".
You appear to be exceeding those values both in total toe and your right rear, though the left rear is just on the line.

 

[romeen]

you guys got pics?

I have been planning to go with this setup for a long time...

See post #31 above.

Your rear toe measurements look pretty out there. AFAIK, the factory spec Rear Toe is 0.00" to 0.12" each side Total Toe: 0" to 0.24".
You appear to be exceeding those values both in total toe and your right rear, though the left rear is just on the line.

On my printout it lists the specified range for the rear toe as being .00°-.24° for each side and the range for total toe is .00°-.47°.

I'm guessing that it may be because I am FWD with a stock wheel size of 16" as opposed to the stock 17" wheels on your AWD or possibly some other difference in the suspension geometry between the GS-T and GSX.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

The FAQ says otherwise. It states that .24 is the max total toe allowed, not just per side as we noted above.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169442

Lets get one of our resident experts in here before you put too many miles on the car. You've put too much time and energy into your car for something lame like this to ruin your day.

 

[Artago]

The FAQ says otherwise. It states that .24 is the max total toe allowed, not just per side as we noted above.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169442

Lets get one of our resident experts in here before you put too many miles on the car. You've put too much time and energy into your car for something lame like this to ruin your day.

Yeah, good call. The FAQ states .24 total. Maybe the FWD's are different though. In either case it's better to be safe then sorry. Cheers, Tom.

 

[romeen]

The FAQ says otherwise. It states that .24 is the max total toe allowed, not just per side as we noted above.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169442QUOTE]

Well, I looked at the printout from an alignment I had done at a Sears Auto Ctr. in Las Vegas back in 2002 and the specified ranges for the various measurements all match the ones shown on this recent printout! This recent one was done by a local rally racer who has an outstanding reputation with racers in the Pacific Northwest (Garth Ankeny/Trackside Tire for any local guys who may be interested). Although it's possible it doesn't seem very likely that two different shops in different parts of the country are going to show the same specified range if it is incorrect. So I guess we need to figure out if the info in the FAQ is inaccurate.

Here are all the specifed values that I am showing:

FRONT
Camber -.83° to .17° (both sides)
Caster 3.17° to 6.17° (both sides)
Toe -.12° to .12°
Turning Angle Diff -7.50° to -3.50° (not measured on my car)
Total Toe -.24° to .24°

REAR
Camber -2.17° to -1.17° (both sides)
Toe .00° to .24°
Total Toe .00° to .47°

 

[wret]

Besides some rounding, the difference is that the specs you quoted are in degrees (ALT0176 on the keyboard to get that elusive ° symbol). The toe specs in the FAQ are in inches. If you do the math, I think you'll find they are close.

 

[asian312]

you guys got pics?

I have been planning to go with this setup for a long time...

Here's another for good measure.

- Koni Yellows / H&R OE springs
- 215/50/17 Falken ZE-512

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[romeen]

No no, good work to you romeen. You've convinced me to get the OE/Illumina combo. Cheers, Tom.

I don't think you will regret it. Just make sure you clearly specify that you want the OE Sports as opposed to the plain Sports (I'm sure you already know this). The part numbers are identical but if I remember correctly the OE's have "-55" added to the end of it.

I love these springs more and more everyday. I've been doing some hard driving with my Tokicos set at 5 (x4). Ride is a bit harsh but the limits def. seem to be higher than what it was with the Prokit. I haven't taken the car to it's cornering limits yet but I have gotten it to a point where previously the car would be understeering pretty bad (on the same familiar local roads). But as I mentioned in a previous post I can't say how much of this is due to the new setup vs. the recent alignment.

Any luck finding a spring tester?

Besides some rounding, the difference is that the specs you quoted are in degrees (ALT0176 on the keyboard to get that elusive ° symbol). The toe specs in the FAQ are in inches. If you do the math, I think you'll find they are close.

I figured I must be missing something simple (I guess I really am getting old). Thanks for the tip on displaying the ° also.

Here's another for good measure.

- Koni Yellows / H&R OE springs
- 215/50/17 Falken ZE-512

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Looks good, very clean. Just curious if you have driven a 2G with Prokit/Illumina or OE/Illumina setup and if so how you felt it compared to the setup you have with the Konis?

 

[Artago]

Any luck finding a spring tester?

No I haven't but that's because I haven't looked for one yet because I have not purchased the springs yet. But when I get them I will try and find a spring tester so we can get some real values for these springs. Cheers, Tom

 

[asian312]

Looks good, very clean. Just curious if you have driven a 2G with Prokit/Illumina or OE/Illumina setup and if so how you felt it compared to the setup you have with the Konis?

I've riden in a on a full Tokico Illumina setup a long time ago, but can't remember enough to make any comparisons. Not many people in my area are really big into suspension work.