Compression test results...oil on 3 of 4 spark plugs/threads, hard cold starts, slow spooling, etc..

[Gremo87]

So I've been chasing a problem and just got around to doing a compression test.


Results after 3(ish) seconds of cranking for each cylinder:
1: 105 (oil on plug tip and threads)
2: 120 (no oil)
3: 105 (oil)
4: 95 (oil)

Results after another 3-4 seconds of cranking WITHOUT resetting compression tester gauge:
1: 150
2: 140
3: 150
4: 150

This engine was supposedly rebuilt and bored 0.020" over less than 3000 miles ago. Everything I know about it is in my profile.

It definitely looks like it was rebuilt. The block is extremely clean and you can see new gaskets in every place you can see. But...oil is obviously getting on the spark plugs. Here are pictures. The plugs go 4-3-2-1 in the first picture. 1-2-3-4 in the second.

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So yeah, obviously not good news....and the valve cover gasket has been replaced and is not leaking oil into the wells, from what I can see.

So...the suspects in this case would be what? Piston rings, head gasket, valve issue? The head (in and out) looks brand new (just metal appearance-wise - I have no clue how to inspect a head or valve train), though it's unlikely - several holes for the VC have coils in them. So the head was at least cleaned up...but I have no more information than that.

I'll be doing my own research...but just wanted to get something going on here.

Thanks everyone.

:/

 

[mitsubishikid]

Did you pull the intake pipe on the turbo and look for oil yet? maybe your turbos oil seals are leaking. also check your inter-cooler for oil as well you can clean it out with gasoline.
could also be leaking oil from the valve stem seals, if they were not replaced correctly, sometimes debris from old valve stem seals can linger behind on a valve guide, and if not removed when replacing the stem seals, can cause oil leaks among other possible issues.

 

[Gremo87]

Did you pull the intake pipe on the turbo and look for oil yet? maybe your turbos oil seals are leaking. also check your inter-cooler for oil as well you can clean it out with gasoline.
could also be leaking oil from the valve stem seals, if they were not replaced correctly, sometimes debris from old valve stem seals can linger behind on a valve guide, and if not removed when replacing the stem seals, can cause oil leaks among other possible issues.

Oh wait whoa - I actually did find oil in the intake pipe a while back. I didn't realize that could lead to this.

So you're saying leaking seals in the turbo can cause what I'm seeing? Because the turbo has very noticeable shaft play - in/out, side to side and up and down. Definitely needs rebuilt. I'd be so extremely relieved to find out it's just the turbo....

But what about the compression numbers? Are they acceptable if the higher numbers took a total of 8 seconds to achieve? Or do you have to get the numbers in the 2-3 seconds of cranking I've seen some sources mention?

Thanks a ton for the quick reply.

 

[Type1DSMr]

Are those numbers with you not adding oil but oil in each cylinder? Usually about 5 cranks is a good number to get compression.

 

[Gremo87]

Are those numbers with you not adding oil but oil in each cylinder? Usually about 5 cranks is a good number to get compression.

I didn't add any oil, there was just oil already on spark plugs 1, 3 and 4.

And if 1 crank is just 1 noise of the starter then I kept it cranking well over 5 times for the first numbers alone. :/

Edit: although, this is being done with an AutoZone rental gauge. I've had trouble with compression tester rentals before, having to exchange twice to get a working one in the past. They have updated models now but same brand and model number.

 

[2fast2evo]

So I've been chasing a problem and just got around to doing a compression test.


So...the suspects in this case would be what? Piston rings, head gasket, valve issue? The head (in and out) looks brand new (just metal appearance-wise - I have no clue how to inspect a head or valve train), though it's unlikely - several holes for the VC have coils in them. So the head was at least cleaned up...but I have no more information than that.

A definitive way to see what's going on with this would be to do a leakdown test. You force air into the cylinders and see if you can tell where it's going. That will tell you 100% if it's bottom end (piston rings leaking) or top end (valve/stem seals, headgasket, etc).

 

[Gremo87]

Hmmm can anyone confirm whether a leaking turbo could cause this much oil to get into the cylinders? I guess I'll take the UICP off and see if there's a bunch of oil in there...because I've done more research and found this thread (http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/question-about-of-cranks-for-compression-test.357177/) in which Calan confirms that up to 10 seconds of cranking, or until peak compression reading is achieved, is acceptable. So I'm going to re-do the test to find max pressure later today...cause I wasn't doing that yesterday. I didn't think cranking that long was acceptable - so I'll report back.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I don't think the brown residue on your plug insulators is oil but it is contamination. Oil would be dark, that's a weird substance that I see. What kind of fuel? It almost looks like rust contamination of the fuel system. Have you checked your fuel filter and had a look in the tank to see if there is clean fuel? Very suspicious of the color being oil. I do see oil on the threads. Are you loosing any coolant also? Also, I crank our cars for 4-8 compression strokes for a compression reading, just did it last week on the son's Spyder.

 

[Gremo87]

Well it's definitely dark, and with oil on the lower threads I just assume that's what it is...the plug with no darkness on the tip also has no oil on the threads. It's E85 tho, with new fuel filter.

As for losing coolant, I don't think so. I haven't been driving it since I noticed something was wrong.

 

[97gsxIA]

The length of time you crank during a compression test won't fudge your numbers (You're suppose to do it multiple times and get the highest reading anyway) Albeit, a leakdown test will give you conclusive results on where you lose compression. Which is what I would recommend doing.

How old are the plugs and what was this issue you were trying to chase?

Your turbo might need rebuilt, but you'd have to be spewing some serious oil to get it all the way up your IC piping, through your TB->IM->ValveBowls->Combustion Chamber and onto your plugs.
Pull your UICP it would have to be caked with oil for it to be the root cause of oil on your plugs... which I highly doubt.

Do you have lines of communication open with whoever built it? Depending on how big the ring end gaps are and how it was broken in can point to whether or not oil is making it past the pistons.

Also see this thread on spark plug reading:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/a-thread-for-reading-spark-plugs.432668/

To me, I don't see a signifigant amount oil, but maybe on one. Plenty of build up, but I'd have to look closer at each one. How many miles have you put on these plugs?

 

[Gremo87]

Hey 97gsxIA, thanks for chipping in and I'll address your questions in a second! Got some news.

I got a different gauge (not from AutoZone), and I got very different numbers...just like when I used an AutoZone gauge on a different car years ago. (never again!)

Cylinder 1: 172.5
2: 165
3: 172.5
4: 177

All well within 15% of other.


So 97gsxIA - with 2 people saying they don't think it's oil, I now agree. I realized that the oil on the threads could be oil left over from when the VC gasket was leaking oil into the plug wells. I just took the car for a drive to warm it up for the compression test, and cleaned the plugs before hand. There was NO fresh oil on the plugs after. (and I gave it a few good pulls on the drive) Although the plug from cylinder #1 in those pictures does look a little oily huh...but didn't today. (?) They all looked pretty good from what I've seen in the link you posted. But why would one be lighter, and one be darker than the other 2? Could oil from the threads have run down to the firing end in different amounts, causing the different shades?

Regardless - definite power loss that's been getting more and more noticeable.

So the issue I've been working on includes that - the power loss - as well as hard cold starts (cold engine, not outside temp), unstable idle, slow spooling (22+ psi at 4500ish RPM on a 16G), some hesitation upon shifting or going from 0% throttle to moderate throttle. When I bought the car it was kind of scary fast. Fastest thing I'd ever driven or been in. It's definitely not on that level now...and it hasn't been very long. (and it's not me getting used to it...it's very noticeable)

The hard cold starts and unstable idle could just be a tuning issue. It runs really lean sometimes at idle, maxing out the AFR gauge at 18+. (But usually 14.4-15) It definitely needs tuned according to the previous owner and what I see on the AFR gauge sometimes. New to all this though.

But yeah, just isn't running right. :/


- The plugs I assume were new with the engine rebuild, which supposedly would be about 3000-3500 miles ago.
- No open line of communication with the builder. The second owner said he would get me the guy's number, but I've contacted him twice about it since then and he says he's working on finding it but is very busy. (sigh..)



So....considering all of this - especially the new compression #'s.....anyone have any ideas? I suppose if the cold starting, idle, and hesitation are tuning issues, the slow spooling and power loss could be the turbo dying? (but I don't think it hesitated at all when I first bought it! Uggghh I have no clue)

 

[mitsubishikid]

Did you do a boost leak test yet?

 

[97gsxIA]

I see you have ecmlink
If you have the time, post an idle log, cruise log and WOT log. Based on what your numbers are I can give you an idea on where to start.

Your turbo going out can contribute to a loss of power and slow spool but we should check your logs to see anything that jumps out first.

Also before you post a log you need to make sure you have ZERO boost leaks. Speed Density doesn't give a crap whether you have them or not and your tune will just compensate for the leaks and make your turbo work harder.

To sum up, do Boost Leak Test stat, then post us some logs so I can take a look. Also replace your plugs.
This is where you start.

 

[Gremo87]

Excellent, that sounds great.

Boost leak test has been done - it can get up to 25 psi no problem, and will then slowly fall back down. Found a few tiny leaks and fixed them.

But - can hear hissing in oil cap, and hissing in the intake manifold area - like inside the manifold, or something...

I will definitely post some logs up, and got new plugs which will go in today. Check valve for pcv line will be ordered today, in hopes that it will resolve the hissing in oil cap...

 

[97gsxIA]

Chances are one of you valves is open during your BLT. If its discomforting, a leakdown test will tell you if your valves are leaking any, but those compression numbers are good so I wouldn't worry about it.

You can hand crank your timing to about 30*BTDC and that will be close to all the valves shut, but most likely will have on cracked open on one of the cylinders no matter what (hence the hissing) Oil cap hissing is tough to diagnose, could be rings, could be open valve, could pcv. If compression numbers a re good and passes BLT I wouldn't worry about it.

Move onto a taking some logs with the new plugs.

 

[Gremo87]

Awesome, will do.

 

[enriquez2000]

Something to check outside the box for your power issue would be injectors. I had a sticking injector and it would idle lean like yours. Same thing with starting hard. I can normally start right up on half a crank but would take several turnovers with that injector sticking.

 

[Gremo87]

Hey thanks. The injectors are pretty new from FIC, but regardless, I don't know how I'd check that - I'll have to do some research until/unless someone would like to shed some light on that.


New spark plugs are in, and the hesitation seems to be gone. Did several logs, but:

- I can't get the wideband reading (labeled A/F Ratio in Link) to stay displayed. It's even set as default...and will show up after I make it one of the displayed values, but won't show up on logs. And if I exit Link, I'll have to add it again the next time I open it because it's gone again.

- And, MAP never changes. That can't be good, right?

But here they are.

First idle is from cold start to operating temp. Dies after starting and is restarted. Second idle log is all warmed up.

On one of the WOT pulls, it 'hung' toward the top of second gear...meaning it was pulling, and then stopped for a second. It wasn't like clutch slippage. The RPM's didn't go up, they hung where they were, and then resumed climbing. First time it's done that.

 

[Gremo87]

Also - something I forgot to mention here. If I use Link to ground the timing and diagnostic pins, the car dies almost instantly. It's fine with either one grounded by itself, but not both at the same time.

(Just in case that means something to you)

And, towards the end of the first idle log I adjusted the BISS screw to get the ISC Position closer to 30.

 

[Gremo87]

I just went out and tried something - turned the BISS screw out 5 turns and then grounded the timing and diagnostic pins with Link. (The BISS screw was about 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn away from being screwed in all the way) It stayed running like this, but had idle surge pretty bad. It was an attempt to follow these instructions: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/bad-idle-goes-rich-lean-log-attached.337427/#post-151879162
But, with idle surge like that I couldn't do anything so I put it back to how it was.

Then I looked at the valve cover and noticed that it looks like there's now oil coming up through one of the bolt holes in the center...a nice little puddle. I've had to do the VC gasket twice in the past couple weeks because it looks like the VC is warped, and the last time I used the Right Stuff gasket maker (along with the gasket) to just be done with it. Was fine till now........I'm so fed up with this car already. Spend this kind of money to have it sitting in the driveway a couple weeks after buying it.....ugh.

Despite my frustration...I want you all to know I really appreciate the help I get here. Just really bummed.


Edit/Ps. - MAP sensor is the GM-style Omni 4-bar, and I think the wideband is simulating front O2. Base fuel pressure is 48 psi, global is -42.2% and deadtime is 720.

 

[Type1DSMr]

Is your map sensor omni 4 bar a mitsu style. I notice your SD is set under baro but you have your ecu pinout under baro for your aem wide band and using egr pinout for map. You may wanna get change them around so they match.

 

[Gremo87]

Ahhh, I guess that would explain why the MAP reading stays the same and why A/F Ratio won't stay as a displayed value then!

Thank you! I'll see what I can do about that and report back.

 

[DSMattitude]

I would suspect the turbo. If the oil seals are gone you will get oil in the intercooler pipe. Mine makes it up to the head and out the tail pipe in huge plumes of smoke under boost. Also, if oil leaks out, air can probably leak in, during your boost leak test and down your oil drain tube, into the engine which could explain the hissing you hear in the valve cover.

 

[Gremo87]

Hmm yeah that sounds possible, thanks. No smoke here but I'll be rebuilding that asap.

So I got the sensor thing sorted out. While doing that, I went through the ECMLink Functions side of the ECU pin assignments to make sure everything looked good...and I think all I did was change the MAP setting to something else which made the ECU no longer see the MAP data and the car ran like crap - so I quickly changed it back, and I don't think I changed anything else aside from the pin assignments for datalogging, but - the car now idles and runs a little better/smoother.

However....I went to capture a few more logs and while doing a WOT pull from 1st to 4th, it did the 'hanging' thing way worse than before in 2nd and 3rd. Check out the WOT log I'm about to post and look at the 2nd gear pull at 102.275 seconds and look at the behavior of the RPM's from 6488 on up - you can see the RPM's going up and down, despite being at full throttle - that was where it 'hung up' - acted like something was slipping, or something. (and the clutch is almost new - ACT 2600, very grabby and engages right off the floor) Then in the pull through 3rd gear right after that it did it again...you can see I let off the throttle a bit and got back on it, and it continued to do it.

MAP3 is my MAP sensor. Wideband still will not stay displayed - but it will display if you make it a displayed value when you open up my logs. It's labeled A/F Ratio3.

Can you see anything from the log that might explain what's happening there? I meant to do individual logs for idle, cruise and WOT, but I messed up...so here's one that begins with idle and goes to cruise, and another that begins with WOT and hopefully has enough cruise-like conditions after that and before the last WOT pulls to serve as decent cruise data.

PS. My posts are so long - you guys are the bomb for reading through all of this and contributing your time and energy.

 

[DSMattitude]

Do you still have a Cat? By the looked of those plugs you are burning oil weather or not you are seeing it. I have no cat and my has PLUMES. Dang I hope my new turbo gets here soon.