Compounding with a hx35

[imagine-02]

I'm going to be building a compound turbo setup for my 2g using a 7 blade hx35 with its exhaust housing (not the BEP housing).

I was thinking about using a 14b for the small turbo, but i dont know if it will take the abuse of 30+psi very long.

Other turbos I've been thinking about for the small turbo are hx25, hx27, or hx30. I want the fastest spool possible, but without a gap in acceleration rate when the hx35 takes over.

Basically, I just dont know what size difference there should be between the hx35 and the small turbo for this to work smoothly. If I knew what to look for on the maps of these turbos then i would be all good.

 

[99gst_racer]

I know of a complete compound kit for sale if you're interested.


How much power are you wanting to make and where do you want your powerband to be?

 

[dsm-onster]

It will take the abuse because turbos don't care about psi relative to atmosphere. They care about pressure ratio. You won't be at an exorbitant pressure ratio to get very fast spool out of the total setup.

There will be no gap because once the small turbo is getting on spool, it will start to move enough volume flow to get the big one moving. So the compressors will always be adding to each other on the boost graph. You're thinking about gaps in power because of how a sequenial turbo system works, one takes over for the other in that setup. That is not happening in a compound setup. You always need the small turbo on to compound the boost of the big turbo. You juest need the wastegate large enough to bypass enough to prevent the small turbo from spooling up beyond your desired compounding pressure ratio; otherwise you get wild boost creep.

 

[dacowgod]

Just curious:

Why are you going to compound w/ the HX35 being the bigger turbo?? The 7 Blade HX35 spools up only slightly slower than a 16g in the BEP DSM Housing......

Obviously the main reason for compound turbocharging is to increase spool time and overall power.. but it seems like your turbo choices is a little flawed... To increase the decrease the spool time on a HX35 by a significant amount maybe a small VW Turbo would be a better choice?

Don't get me wrong though.. I love the idea of Compound Turbocharging..and if I was half as skilled and patient as guys like Paul and Kevin I would take on the challenge myself... just throwing that out there.

 

[imagine-02]

I know of a complete compound kit for sale if you're interested.


How much power are you wanting to make and where do you want your powerband to be?

Ha ha yeah I saw you are selling it.
I want to experience the fun of building my own though.

I want at least 500hp (I know that the hx35 alone can do that), but I'm not really shooting for a max hp number. I want to compound with a little turbo so I have the power sooner than later in the RPM range.

So do you think the 14b would match up ok with the hx35?
(keep in mind I have the 7 blade so it flows about the same as a hx40)

 

[99gst_racer]

I agree that the HX35 is a bit small to be using as the larger turbo.
Though it would be a perfect choice to use as the smaller turbo if you're shooting for 700+ HP.

 

[bsbllfit7]

personally id go 14b with an hx40 but hx35 would be decent too

 

[dsm-onster]

The powerband of an hx35 is already so nice with a 2.0L, I agree.

Now an 19cm^2 hx40 with an open manifold and an hx35 or 20g or 50-trim would be nice . Or a 7cm^2 turbine housing 14b with a .70 a/r hx40 sounds nice too. OR s366 with an hx35 sounds the best!

If you want insta-spool with an hx35, even faster than the bolton housing, take a look at Mr Peepers (Matt Morrison's) hx35 with the stock 12cm^2 twinscroll setup. He has more torque lower than his 16g setup from what I gather.

. . . . I don't want you not to experiment, however. After all, if your setup will fit a 12cm^2 hx35 and a 14b, it probably would become a bolton affair to swap on an evo3 16g and 19cm^2 hx40; except for the hx40 turbine outlet. Hx40/gt35r flow with bolton hx35 spool sounds intriguing.

 

[imagine-02]

Thanks for the info.

Since I already have the hx35 and 14b, I think ill try that setup first.

I'm planning on using an external wastegate for each turbo, but if I wanted to do this even cheaper, would the 14b and hx35 internal gates work out ok?

I hope to start working on the project this winter so expect a trial and error tech thread in the near future.

 

[dsm-onster]

Considering how much more laggy the 12cm^2 hx35 will be vs. a bolton, it's not a wash to twin charge it with a 14b in my book. The typical 12cm^2 hx35 spools lto 20ish psi at around 4K and the 7blade hx35 compressor wheel flows as much as Paul's 60-1 at least.

As long as you're learning and making progress to a bigger setup, since the bolton hx35 is hella fun on the street and makes 500whp relatively easy. Trying this now means you'll be setup to run a bigger pair of turbos when this is done and tuned. I bet it will be absolutetly amazing on the street.

 

[99gst_racer]

I'm planning on using an external wastegate for each turbo, but if I wanted to do this even cheaper, would the 14b and hx35 internal gates work out ok?

I highly doubt it. Not unless you plan to run 50+ PSI boost.
The wastegates are doing work in a compound set-up. Especially when running low boost (30 psi and under).

I'd love to be able to use the internal gate on my 16g, but I honestly don't think it will be able to keep up with the demand.

 

[kicker91laser]

If he is dead set on using the hx35 for the large turbo, I am wondering how a 13g would work out with it? Granted he will need to run two external wastegates. I would personally like to run an hx35/t4 s475 setup on my other automatic rwd later down the road. Compound setups are where it's at for low-rpm power/tq, and Paul and Kevin have shown us what these setups are capable of doing and this is just the begining.

 

[dsm-onster]

13g would be nice! it spools to 10psi in a neutral rev with stock everything including tune with one of my cars.

 

[sniver]

I was looking over this and I'm going to build something this spring as well on my 2.3. My options are(I own), a 13g(220whp),small 16g(350whp), ebay 16g(380whp), gt3255e(550whp), and I think a holset 531ve(670whp)(the diesel variable one).

Now I bet I can get sweet numbers out of the variable one, but what if we made it even sweeter compounding it, but perhaps it is a waste...I'm not sure? I know of one guy running one of these variables on a dsm, and he had good initial reports, but I never heard how it played out. It varies the hot side from a 3cm to a 22cm if I recall correctly

I was originally thinking s16g & the gt32. Still think this i the best option, since jusmx said they(gt32's) suck at high boost levels anyways, if I only have to make it push 20psi or down, it might survive. the gt32 reaches full spool at 4200 ish I heard on a 2.0

The 13g is a waste I imagine, it probably spools at idle on a 2.3, and ebay turbos are.. ebay turbos.

I want to make 500-550, with a <del>great</del> midrange powerband,say like 3500-7000perhaps? in all honesty I'm not to sure what i want. I guess i want it too spool like the small 16g, but will alot more top end. Ill prob run it around 400ish normally, but would like to be able to turn it up at the track.

Opinions, advise, thoughts?

 

[MidShipCivic]

Just curious:

Why are you going to compound w/ the HX35 being the bigger turbo?? The 7 Blade HX35 spools up only slightly slower than a 16g in the BEP DSM Housing......

Obviously the main reason for compound turbocharging is to increase spool time and overall power.. but it seems like your turbo choices is a little flawed... To increase the decrease the spool time on a HX35 by a significant amount maybe a small VW Turbo would be a better choice?

Don't get me wrong though.. I love the idea of Compound Turbocharging..and if I was half as skilled and patient as guys like Paul and Kevin I would take on the challenge myself... just throwing that out there.

Increase spool time, surely you ment decrease ?

I've said it once, I've said it twice, so after gst_racer says it everyone wants to use that same term. This also goes for Boost Logic this is not turbo compounding.


TurboCompound is a waste system that uses waste energy and couples it back into an engines crankshaft or generator.

View the examples in this document.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2005/session6/2005_deer_vuk.pdf

Or here
SuperGen for Turbo-compounding


Here's what you're after :

2-Staged turbocharging
http://www.mandieselturbo.de/files/news/filesof14685/6510-0183 PR Two-stage Turbocharging.pdf

http://www.wartsila.com/Wartsila/gl...ing-emissions-using-2stage-turbo-charging.pdf

 

[imagine-02]

Anyone know of a cheap place to get piping/tubing for building exhaust manifolds?
I want "cookie cutter" 90° and 45° bends and any length straight pieces.
What I mean by cookie cutter is a set length and radius piece already cut. Not like the U and J piping/tubing that you cut yourself.
(If there aren't any places out there that sell pieces like this, I'll just go with the U or J piping/tubing and make my own cookies cutter pieces)

I'm designing the manifold and piping for the turbos in SolidWorks, so having bends that are the exact same makes it a lot easier to build in the software and for transfering the dimensions from the software to real life.
Then I could have a Bill of Materials that would look something like.
# of 90° bends = 14
# of 45° bends = 8
Length of straight sections = 4ft

 

[TSIMonsteR]

HX40 and 14b or HX25 for sure.

 

[99gst_racer]

Anyone know of a cheap place to get piping/tubing for building exhaust manifolds?
I want "cookie cutter" 90° and 45° bends and any length straight pieces.
What I mean by cookie cutter is a set length and radius piece already cut. Not like the U and J piping/tubing that you cut yourself.
(If there aren't any places out there that sell pieces like this, I'll just go with the U or J piping/tubing and make my own cookies cutter pieces)

I'm designing the manifold and piping for the turbos in SolidWorks, so having bends that are the exact same makes it a lot easier to build in the software and for transfering the dimensions from the software to real life.
Then I could have a Bill of Materials that would look something like.
# of 90° bends = 14
# of 45° bends = 8
Length of straight sections = 4ft

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/ven...om-new-vendor-weld-els-mandrel-bends-etc.html

 

[imagine-02]

Increase spool time, surely you ment decrease ?

I've said it once, I've said it twice, so after gst_racer says it everyone wants to use that same term. This also goes for Boost Logic this is not turbo compounding.


TurboCompound is a waste system that uses waste energy and couples it back into an engines crankshaft or generator.

View the examples in this document.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2005/session6/2005_deer_vuk.pdf

Or here
SuperGen for Turbo-compounding


Here's what you're after :

2-Staged turbocharging
http://www.mandieselturbo.de/files/news/filesof14685/6510-0183 PR Two-stage Turbocharging.pdf

http://www.wartsila.com/Wartsila/gl...ing-emissions-using-2stage-turbo-charging.pdf

I didn't get the name or initial idea from gst_racer. I got it from my brother because he built a compound turbo system for a customers cummins.
The diesel people call it compound turboing...
Dodge Aurora Compound Turbo Kits - ATS Diesel
LoveFab Compound Turbo kit for the 6.7 Cummins | LoveFab INC.

 

[ChltDSM]

Off topic ... In the name of stealth and simplicity... has anyone considered Remote mounting the 2ndary (larger) Turbo? I have the STS scavenging pump /return bungs and supply lines ready to set up from another project. I'm about to pull the trigger and connect it all to my DSM. but first really wanted to get some opinion on, to what degree I could be negating the benifits of compounding by placing the 2ndary turbo out back. (being that much farther from the prmary exhaust ) As opposed to having everything crammed in the engine bay.

I would be using a B16G as my primary and a DBB 5032 as the 2ndary. tucked into the right rear fender of a 1G. Not looking for a super high HP set up.. just looking to enhance the power band without out alot of fuss or sign of a 2nd turbo in the engine bay.

Later
Todd delving into winter project

 

[sniver]

I know the put remote mount turbos or corvettes and they work, I just imagine it is less effeicent. I've wondered about this myself. I kinda of think the exhaust would end up being cool and similar to the diesels up front. I think the biggest thing to look into would if there needs to be a difference with hot side a/r.

I think it would physically work, but I'm not sure as to if its valueable. It would be pretty sweet if it all worked out great.

Sent from my Droid

 

[kp116]

If you do a true twin scroll set up like Mr. Peepers I think that is all that you would need. If I remember correctly I think he made 470ft/lbs at like 4k. 2nd gear brake boosting up to 20psi very quickly at 2500!! It spools up just as quick or quicker than his 16g and the power comes in very linear.

 

[bwhite]

What about using a hy35 in 9cm form. I bet that spools super quick.. And using a hx52 as the larger turbo?

 

[imagine-02]

What about using a hy35 in 9cm form. I bet that spools super quick.. And using a hx52 as the larger turbo?

Do it!

 

[standard235]

What about using a hy35 in 9cm form. I bet that spools super quick.. And using a hx52 as the larger turbo?

I would purchase a setup like this if I saw results.....

I'm going to be builting a twinscroll mani for my 7 blade HX35 soon. This compound turbo setup just sounds so awesome.