stock appearing turbo for 2.3

[Pirrofab]

I'm in quite a perdicament at the moment with turbo selection for a 2.3 stroker. I need to keep it stock appearing and keep cost down. I also want to keep it a mitsu flanged turbo and internally gated. Street manners are also in mind. This will be daily driven so reliability is also a factor.
Turbos I have thought of are
Evo3 16g- Fully ported
18g 6sl2- fully ported
SBR bastard 20g with tdo6 wheel also fully ported
T04B V-Trim ( Haven't heard much luck but its bolt on and semi stock appearing and SBR has one heck of a deal on them)

I know the airflow of a 2.3 really puts a strain on these turbos at the 6-7500 rpm range but I know someone has had to have tried this and would have some knowledge behind making it work. I've seen countless 2.0 16 g powered cars make it it into the 11's so I figured why not do it with a 2.3l. Stock appearing means everything to me on this build so if I have to scrap the 2.3 liter idea for a built 2.0 then I'll go that route but I really like the idea of a stroker.

 

[JusMX141]

DON'T buy a V-Trim.

Why not find a good deal on a blown Evo III ($150 or less) and have a reputable turbo shop build you something completely custom? You could use pretty much any wheel that would be able to be machined into the TD05H compressor cover, and turbine selection would be up to you based on your compressor choice...although with a 2.3, spool won't be a problem- you'll want as much flow as you can get.

 

[jrohner]

If you're going with a small turbo, I see no reason to go with a 2.3. A 16G makes full boost at less than 3 grand on a 2.0 and makes peak power by 6 grand or sooner. On a 2.3 it will spool sooner but also fall on it's face sooner. Even a sleeper 16G sounds really small to me to expect much power from a stroker.

 

[buddahboost]

I would do a bastard 20G

 

[kahl23]

I don't even think a V-trim qualifies as stock appearing, most stock appearing classes require t-25 or 14b footprints. Do what jusmx said to do and either get a custom turbo in machined housings or if you want it off the shelf get the bastard 20G, the biggest complaint about them is that they're too laggy for what you get, but with a 2.3 that wouldnt be an issue. What is this car competing in?

 

[Pirrofab]

Wow do we as dsmsers never sleep? it was 2:30am when I posted that. I love you guys.

jusmx141- I could go and buy a 16g thats blown and have all this crazy work done to it ( like a franken turbo) but I feel once all that I would go that route the cost of the turbo is back to me just buying a brandy new turbo with warranty. Its funny you say don't buy v- trim. I did homework on it and it EVERYONE said it spools slow and suffered surge till they died and was really lack luster under 22 psi.

jrohner- The hole "fall on its face factor" is what I'm concerned about. IF it drops power a little bit I'd be ok with it. I just don't want to be pulling out of the hole having people go " wow that was a great launch but why is just cruising like a station wagon"The car will be used for daily driving about 15,000 miles a year and 1/4 mile abuse once or twice a month. Being as it seems that mid to high 300whp cars break into the high 11's to mid 12's I'm expecting to make between 375 -450whp. (Race fuel and meth inj will be aiding in that)

buddahboost- I'm thinking this is the solution. tdo6 wheel and heavily ported on the exhaust side to help out the flow as much as possible

kahl23- I heard bastard20gs were laggy but being as its a 2.3 that would be 300-500 rpm sooner with spool up. Like i said to jrohner, Daily driver with 1/4 mile abuse once or twice a month.

Bastard20g is looking to be a contender with a evo3 in 2nd place.

 

[DoyoFCT]

I say find a blown evo3 turbo, and then buy a 20g td06 chra and have the comp and turbine housing modified. probably your best bet for a stock appearing turbo setup.

But I will still vote hx40... ha...

 

[jrohner]

Does your engine need to be rebuilt and that's why you are thinking of going 2.3? If your engine isn't bad I'd leave it alone. According to your profile you already have a very built engine.

Are you able to get E85 where you are at? That would help your power a lot. I tuned my cousin's 2g, which is basically stock with a fake 16G and home-made exhaust, and it got 320awhp (dynojet) on a dyno day (no dyno tuning). Mine did 340hp/380torque on a dyno dynamics in fwd mode back when I had stock cams, unported exhaust manifold, and a Nissan SMIC.

Are you running some type of class that requires a stock appearing turbo or are you just wanting to keep your car a sleeper? How 'bout a FMIC, SMIM, etc? Are they out of the question? Cams?

 

[Pirrofab]

My motor has 201650k on the stock untouched bottom end right now. Its finally starting to push the dipstick out under high boost 18-20psi. My cyl head has just under 50k on it. I haven't heard of e85 being around here but I also haven't looked into it. I'm not sure of anyone in the area that uses it so it hasn't caught on yet. I'm not running any sort of class. When I do get everything together I would be running friday night street legals and saturday brackets which just require a muffler and street tires or slicks depending on class. Nothing truly specific to engine displacement or turbo size. I really just want an awesome sleeper. I never heard of a nissan smic only the supra smic. When I do this build I'm thinking sleeper smic or smaller front mount. Cams are in the future, probably 272/272 but im unsure on brand at the moment. my head flows amazing as it is so cams will only multiply that.

 

[JusMX141]

jusmx141- I could go and buy a 16g thats blown and have all this crazy work done to it ( like a franken turbo) but I feel once all that I would go that route the cost of the turbo is back to me just buying a brandy new turbo with warranty. Its funny you say don't buy v- trim. I did homework on it and it EVERYONE said it spools slow and suffered surge till they died and was really lack luster under 22 psi.

Here's all the info you need to know about a V-Trim, and the reason they're selling so cheap:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/312962-to4b-v-trim-users.html#post151653795

What's funny is I bought one of those turbos in nice shape as a rebuildable core a few summers ago, and now it's turned into a parts turbo. I'm too embarrassed to sell it- what would I say in the description? "Here we have a nice rebuilt turbo- it'll surge like hell, it generates less airflow than a 16G at 18psi, and it's alot more laggy....but it sure is nice!"

Don't settle for a new turbo just because of a warranty if it's not what you want. Something that is custom-built and perfectly balanced with all new internals should even be more reliable than a new component-balanced MHI unit. I wouldn't be scared to get something custom-built out of a good core.

 

[93blueGS]

If you are SO set on a stock looking turbo, I wouldn't go with the 2.3.. They won't work too well together with drag racing since you will never be low enough in the rpm's where they will both benefit..

Personally, I'd stick with stock displacement and a td05 or td06 20g, smim, and cams.. They will help with spool along with the airflow of it.. Unless you're going to be autocrossing the car or doing some type of event where you'll be at low rpm's then I don't see a point in going with the 2.3.. Just my opinion of course, take it as you will..

 

[dsm-onster]

The 20g compressor flows 48lb/min. It doesn't matter if you have a diesel fuso motor attached to it, a 4g63, or a 350 small block. You don't LOOSE power as you reach redline with a smaller turbo, you just flatline when you reach the choke flow. If its 'falling on it's face' by 7500rps with a stroker, that is because you're exceeding 48lbs/min. I don't see why you should have more lag if you want the power that a 20g can deliver.

I would look at a td06 20g with a modified backplate to add a 14b/16g compressor cover machined for the larger 20g wheel. . .

 

[Pirrofab]

jusmx141- I've actually read all those write ups on the v trim, including some not listed in that thread. I was thinking though that maybe with a 2.3 in some weird way it would wake it up. I woudn't be settling for a turbo just because of a warranty but rather buying one thats built and ordered on a regular basis. I don't want something thats almost one off. With my car having 201k on it and to my knowledge the 14b is almost original and still has almost no shaft play so I'm a firm believer of mhi turbos exspecially since my turbo has seen countless 18-20 psi runs and a few 20+psi runs. I'm religous on maintence but I've been neglectful on turbo cool down periods. ( its only a 14b). Things will change greatly with the new set up.

93bluegs- I get what your saying but AMS ( from my knowledge) has built a few 2.3 evos with close to stock turbos if not 50 trims which re just a little larger then a 20g. I know a 50 trim is quite a reasonable upgrade for most any dsm/evo for its "bang for the buck". If stroker motors weren't so great though for high rpm use then I don't think so many companies/customers would toy around with the idea of it.

dsm-onster- I did mean choke when I said "lose power" but looking at a dyno chart you would kind of see power "fall off" as the motor produced more airflow then the turbo wouldn't you? I was looking at it from that perspective. The bastard 20g is a 20g wheel inside a 16g compressor with the option of a tdo5 or tdo6 wheel. I would be choosing the larger wheel ofcourse since spool isn't an issue with a 2.3.

doyofct- holset is VERY APPEALING exspecially with a good local friend playing with cummins powered dodges the factory turbos are hx35 and hx40. I could get one cheap but then I lose what I'm trying to stick to and clearence to the rad fans and rad become an issue and those turbos can produce way more then I'll ever neeed.

 

[dsm-onster]

dsm-onster- I did mean choke when I said "lose power" but looking at a dyno chart you would kind of see power "fall off" as the motor produced more airflow then the turbo wouldn't you? I was looking at it from that perspective. The bastard 20g is a 20g wheel inside a 16g compressor with the option of a tdo5 or tdo6 wheel. I would be choosing the larger wheel ofcourse since spool isn't an issue with a 2.3.

Well, the power won't fall off. The powerband will mor or less flatten. Is that what you mean? If the turbo supplys 40lb/min and you see 40lb/min with a stroker motor at 6K what happens at 7.5K? The airflow doesn't fall. It's just all the turbo can supply.

Yes. Of course, all of this with a properly sized turbine wheel. An improperly sized turbine wheel will definately give you a hp peak before redline. Backpressure will begine to wreak havoc on your VE. A td05h turbine wheel will ruin your ve up top; but if it is coupled to a small 16g compressor you'd never know the difference as the compressor can less air in the first place. You simply size the turbine to the compressor. Who would buy a td05h 20g to extract any more airflow than an evo3 16g? You don't need to worry about how much air the stroker will require. You just need to know how much air your goal will require. Looks like you're seeking 400-450whp. The 18g will do that and the td06sl wheel won't be penalizing your VE nearly as bad as a td05h 16g for airflows requirements over 400whp. Regardless of to what engine the turbo is attached. If you only require 425whp worth of airflow out of it and it can deliver it and still remain efficient, then it's not being over workd. It could be hanging off a RB26 and it won't overwork the turbo.

 

[Pirrofab]

dsm-onster this is why your a wiseman and someday I hope to have that title under my name. THANKOU. From what I come to know the bastard 20g being as it has a tdo6 wheel option and with the compressor and turbine housings being ported it would outflow an 18g with a 6sl2 and therefore be able to get more out of it.

Yes I was worried about the powerband, its kind of hard to explain it because of the different terms to use. Correct me if I'm wrong on explaining this but I didn't want to have it where the engine was flowing 48lb/min at 5k mated with a turbo that had max flow of 48lb/min because then everything after 5k would be "flat". Say that same motor continued to increase in flow to 60lb/min at 7.5k the turbo could still only push 48lb/min. Therefore it couldn't be effiecient as it should be. If I'm reading correctly what you said then I should have said almost the same thing with a few more words, hopefully.

 

[dsm-onster]

If you don't want to see choke at 5K, buy a bigger turbo or lower your dismplacement . . . Or run low enough boost so that you only see the 48lb/min by redline. 22-23psi (2.5PR) and 2.4L of displacement assuming 90% VE will flow 0.32m^3/sec of volume flow at 7100rpms. 0.32m^2/sec is on the choke line of the 20g compressor. You will reach your goal with the 20g compressor, 400-450whp. You don't need .32m^/sec volume flow to reach this goal. Since you don't need .32m^3/sec volume flow to reach your horsepower goal, the 18g can still reach your goal or you can run even lower boost. Low boost means less heat (regardless of efficiency) and this would be good for pumpgas. I suggest the td06 20g.

Porting the turbine housing helps a little. But not enough to negate the effects of different wheel aerodynamics or different turbine housing critical area. You can port the housing to a 20-umteen cm^2, but you have to go into the housing and port open through out the scroll for you to see an increase a larger a/r can give you. The larger critical area affects actual the angle the gases enter the turbine blades. Portmatching just makes the transition to the turbine housing smooth. Not that portmatching is a bad thing, but you can have the same benefits by just using the seal ring and you won't be increasing the collector volume which will decrease exhaust gas velocity.

 

[gorf]

Great thread guys - I am in the same boat as the OP Bleedingsilver. I am putting together a 2.3 6 bolt bottom end with 7 bolt head. I want to use this as an autoX car/ fun daily driver and wanted the low end torque. Yes, I know, I am going to get my ass handed to me in the class I'll have to run.....

My quick question, from above :
The 20g compressor flows 48lb/min. - is this a "bastard" setup?
What does a ported E316G flow?

 

[jrohner]

Well, the power won't fall off. The powerband will mor or less flatten. Is that what you mean? If the turbo supplys 40lb/min and you see 40lb/min with a stroker motor at 6K what happens at 7.5K? The airflow doesn't fall. It's just all the turbo can supply.

Very few engines have the power curve stay flat for very long after a certain rpm, turbo or not. To accomplish this, you'd have to up the boost after peak. Airflow doesn't exactly mean hp. You still have VE changes at different rpms even with a turbo. Engines with smaller turbos usually seem to peak at 5500-6000, and then start to drop off. If you turn the boost down, power will most likely stay up better in the higher rpms, but not if your pretty much maxing out your turbo.

If I had an hx35, my peak hp wouldn't be at 5500 with it dropping after that (my boost is finished tapering off after 5500); it would still start going down at some time after peak though. I'd be amazed if I had a stroker and it still had still had as much top end power with the same turbo as my 2.0 has; sounds impossible to me. If hp stayed the same for a long ways after peak, there would sure be less of an advantage to going with a bigger turbo. If the airflow number doesn't go down, that doesn't mean the hp is not going down. That would be pretty insane if I had 414hp from 5500 all the way to 8000. If I turn the boost down, it seems like my car pulls pretty good to 8 grand, but with it turned up, there is no point to going past 7.

The turbo has more to do with the rpm range than pretty much anything else on the engine. Even my cams didn't change my hp curve, it just made the whole curve move up quite a bit higher.

 

[dsm-onster]

A compressor is volume flow and PR dependent not rpm dependent. The compressor map axes are rendered in PR and volume flow (or volume flow with corections to see a massflow number). And we use that aiflow number to get a very good indication of the peak hp potential of the compressor. A 5.0L may extract all the flow the hx35 can supply before 4K. The 2.0L motor needs to see much more boost (PR) at 4K to see the same airflow as the 5.0L motor at 4K. Or rev much higher. But the 5.0L makes just as much power, just at a lower rpm.

Lower the VE, lower the airflow. Airflow DOES mean hp. Boost doesn't. Yes I agree that you horsepower will go down. Horsepower is torque over time. Torque is heavily dependent on VE. Lower VE means lower torque, but lower torque divided by ever smaller incriments of time (higher and higher rpms). The turbo is being forced to maintain a certain boost (PR), not a certain airflow. Now, as VE goes down, the volume flow requirements per rpm go down. After the hp peak there's more VE loss than the increase in rpms can counter. Yes power peaks and tapers down but not very much before redline if your cam duration/timing is proper for the volume per rpm (piston/airflow velocity) and revlimit. I think you're quibbling over what a flat power band is. If the power doesn't change + or - 50hp with a 400hp setup from 5500-7100rpms (safe redline for a stroker), then I consider the powerband flat.

That would be pretty insane if I had 414hp from 5500 all the way to 8000. If I turn the boost down, it seems like my car pulls pretty good to 8 grand, but with it turned up, there is no point to going past 7.

This is exactly what I'm saying. He will be going to a larger volume displacement. He will have to lower his revlimit to be safe. His peak VE will be earlier, earlier torque peak. Let's say he wants to reach the maximum flow of the 20g compressor. He will reach maximum airflow of his turbo earlier than 7K with boosts over 22psi (reasonably assuming that VE will be down to 90% by 7K as I've stated). There WILL be no point going past 7Krpms. So what, right? He achieved the maximum aiflow limit of the compressor. And extracted the most from the compressor.

Your 2.0L will make the same peak hp at the limit of your hx35 as it would with your 2.4 at the limit of the hx35. It will be at different rpms, but the 1/4 mile trap speed will still be the same.



What I'm saying. . . Don't buy a 20g when you want 375whp. Stroker or not. The evo3 16g will easily achieve this hp goal. The limit of the evo3 16g compressor will be seen earlier in the rpm range than a 20g, but you also have developed spool much earlier. So the power under the curve is the same. The peak airflow which corresponds to the peak hp is the same. Shifting later than you have to IS a waste. And you will have a 375whp car with the spool of a 14b. For the OP, I suggest a 20g, because no one settles for their goal after they've reached it. However the td06sl 18g will reach 400whp easily and spool faster. It just becomes rather inefficienct as is being pushed pretty hard once you get into the 450whp range.

 

[Pirrofab]

Thank you once again dsm-onster. HUGE HELP!!

Gorf- the 48lb/min flow is with the bastard 20g. I'm glad im not the only one in this boat. Im in it to push the limits of this set up just to see what kind of numbers I get, dyno and 1/4 mile. Maybe once I find my new found torque I might try putting it through some traffic cones in a parking lot.

jrohner- Cams for this set up are my next choice. cams would make the hp curve higher in the rpm range but wouldn't it also make power on a sharper level? . I know my head is along for the ride unless I put some sort of cams in it. A SBR stage 3 head with stock cams is pointless. Although I have done it for almost 50k so far and can't complain. More then likely I'll use a set of 272's as they should be great for a 2.3 revving no higher then 7500.

I can't thank you guys enough for posting on this so quick. SBR is going to love me come tax time.

 

[dsm-onster]

A note. With a turbine housing, the critical area (A/R) controls how the gases angle into the blades. A larger a/r, an angle that will be closer to parallel to the blades: more flow. The bastard 20g uses the smaller td05h *compressor* cover. Because a compressor wheel exits the aircharge radially from the compressor axis, following the path of the blades already, the a/r of the compressor cover has very little to do with the peak flow. It does affect efficiency however. It forces more slip (look up busemann's slip factor), because there is less room leaving the blade tips. The air particles "organize better" with a smaller compressor cover critical area. So you can see the better efficiency with no loss in flow (note the td06 big 16g has no 145K rpm line drawn).

No change in flow. The 20g in the td05 compressor cover should flow about the same as the 20g in the td06 cover. For a 20g vs. a big 16g, evo3 16g, or 18g, all having the same exducer(major) diameter; the difference between inducer and exducer diameters of the 20g is the smallest. Smaller diameter difference typically lowers efficiency (see holset compressors with HUGE exducer diameters and extended tip BW compressors).

The larger compressor cover puts the surge line farther to the left. This could be beneficial if you're using the td05h turbine wheel and a 2.0L motor fast spool with lower flow per revolution. But you really don't have to worry about surge with a 20g compressor if you have a decent flowing turbine wheel especially with a stroker. Diesel motors, like the motor which orriginaly sported the 20g compressor, cause the compressor to fiercely surge Because of very fast spool and very high boost required with very large compressors. Having the large cover that alters the surge line while sacreficing a little efficiency is worth it to keep the turbo together.

 

[daren_p]

What about the good ol FP Green? Stock turbine housing, internal WG & a great street/strip turbo for a stroker. Only issue may be cost? I had a buddy that origionally had an evoIII on his stroker, can you say T25 spool characteristics

If the Green isn't the ticket I'd be looking towards some sort of 20g varient. I would go the TD06SL2 route.

 

[jrohner]

jrohner- Cams for this set up are my next choice. cams would make the hp curve higher in the rpm range but wouldn't it also make power on a sharper level? . I know my head is along for the ride unless I put some sort of cams in it. A SBR stage 3 head with stock cams is pointless. Although I have done it for almost 50k so far and can't complain. More then likely I'll use a set of 272's as they should be great for a 2.3 revving no higher then 7500.

Mine just has more everywhere, the low end was not hurt and the top end wasn't the main improvement. It also reaches boost at the exact same rpm (2700-2800). The FMIC hurt my spool a couple hundred, but the cams didn't change it.

 

[Pirrofab]

darenp- cost is a huge issue. As with anything though price comes quality. I've looked at fp greens and stare in amazment at what they do but the funds for it aren't there. I guess what I'm going to do are push limits and do what mitsubishi should have orginally built; 2.3 strokers with 20gs from the factory. , I'm going to build a evo/sti hunter. Its gonna be sleeper except for the intake and exhaust manifold.

Jrohner and dsm-onster- You guys were a huge help to this. Thanks for the help once again. I'm doin it, 2.3 20g. It'll will take a few months to get everything together but you guys will be the first to know how the finished project looks and performs

 

[gorf]

What about the good ol FP Green? Stock turbine housing, internal WG & a great street/strip turbo for a stroker. Only issue may be cost? I had a buddy that origionally had an evoIII on his stroker, can you say T25 spool characteristics

If the Green isn't the ticket I'd be looking towards some sort of 20g varient. I would go the TD06SL2 route.

Ya someone said they had a 2.4 with fp green and got 2500 spool - sounds good for a turbo capable of 500 hp!!! That is exactly what I am looking for quick spool and 400+ hp.

I will have my car back together sometime next week. I plan on using my E3 16g at least for break in. I'll post back with actual spool numbers.