Old guy needs advice on these new "gt" turbos

[turboglenn]

Just as te title says, i'm an old school guy that's been doing this for a long time, but haven't really kept up on the new GT series turbos. Or any other newer turbos that are in teh DSM world now ( sadly 80% of my work is porsche, 15%honda 5% DSM when it comes to tuning a built car)

I have the Garret 57 To4e, Journal bearing, T3 hotside with a stage III turbine in a .63 AR housing.

I'm looking to get the fastest spooling turbo i can find that will fit either a garrett t3 style or stock mitsu style manifold, but will produce in teh 475HP range at 28-30 psi.

I never plan on going over 30psi,i never plan on revving to 9k RPM, and this is a DD car. What i want i NEED a stroker for, but in the mean time since i've got a couple 2.0 motors. I figured i'd dig in and either rebuild my turbo and upgrade to a 60-1 or buy somehting different and rebuild this as is and use it on something else.

I know curt and them guys made these #'s on a EVO316G, but i'm not them, i'm the average tuner with a good knowledge of ECu's and tuning , but not up to date on all the latest rage ( i have a family and other things that are more important to keep up on)

I don't like the spool of the 57 trim, i built it in my first week of turbocharger modfifying and rebuilding aprenticeship, and i knew very little about maps and choke lines then. I mainly picked it because 57 was my AMA race # when i was in 125B class dirtbike racing years upon years ago : and it showed to make the airflow for the power i wanted. I've been on this turbo for near 9 years now. What's todays fastest spooling equivelent in airflow #'s for somehitng in the 60-1's airflow range?

 

[joeracer321]

I would say the S258 may be what you are looking for. They spool fast and make great power, it is light years ahead in technology from the old 57trim.

 

[turboglenn]

I would say the S258 may be what you are looking for. They spool fast and make great power, it is light years ahead in technology from the old 57trim.

You gotta link to either info about it or where i can buy one for a decent rice?

Also is it a garrett T3 or mitsu style on the exhuast housing to manifold flange?

 

[coryd]

I just got a garret gt3582r... I pretty much have the same goals as you do. You can get them in t3 or mitsu exhaust housing...

 

[blcknspo0ln]

You gotta link to either info about it or where i can buy one for a decent rice?

Also is it a garrett T3 or mitsu style on the exhuast housing to manifold flange?

You can buy S25x turbos in either mitsu bolt on or T3.

 

[joeracer321]

Bullseye Power

 

[1992awdlaser]

A gt3082r is a good choice in my oppinion. It will spool faster than a gt35r and will meat your goals.

 

[awdwhip]

HTA 35R w/.63 hotside Rev it to 8K and you're golden!

 

[Street Surgeon]

Quick spooling and 475hp? Might look in to either an FP3052 or FP3065, they both spool very quickly, support the airflow/hp range you're looking for, and are bolt on affairs to a stock mitsu flange. The FP turbo's are a bit pricey, but they're also of the highest quality.

FP3052:

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FP3065 (with optionial 90* elbow):

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Hell even a Green would get you where you want to be!

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If you're already running a T3 manifold, you could probably find a pretty cheap GT3076R which would work well for you as well!

 

[brute]

I'd say something based on a GT30 CHRA or 50-trim. There are so many options for these turbos that you can literally get whatever you want out of it (a/r, inlet and outlet flange, and bearing specifications).

So like I said earlier, I'd go with a 50-trim or GT30 variant. This includes (but isn't limited to)

S25x
FP30x
FP Green
SBR GT12

If you're on a strict budget, I'd look into a Holset HX-35. That should get you a good basis to do some more searching!

 

[2point3Tsi]

Look at Steve93Talon S258 setup on pump gas, 471whp on stock internals.

 

[RipperXX]

Whats the spool up like on a Green?

 

[Steve93Talon]

What do you have for supporting mods? Where do you currently see full boost? You mention that your 57 trim has a T3 hotside, but you're looking for either a T3 or mitsu flanged turbo. Going back to a Mitsu bolt-on would typically give you a smaller AR, which would increase spool up, but it'll also require more boost to make the same power.

My previous S256 bolt-on saw 28psi by about 3700 with stock internals and FP2s I ran 11.9 @ 119 with it. The current S258 in the .70 T3 sees 28psi by about 4700 and ran 11.8 @ 123 on pump with the same supporting mods, only difference being the old engine had 2G pistons and this one's a stock 7.8 6 bolt.

I've previously owned an FP Green, and I'd take either BW over it any day. A friend who has a GT35R in the FP bolt-on housing rode in my current setup when I was at around 25psi and got pretty pissed because it pulled so well compared to his setup that he'd spent so much more on (I'd tried talking him into an S362 before he got the 35r, guess what he's bolting on now).

The S256 would probably be the best choice for your goals, it'll make 500-550whp properly supported and will spool quicker. In the .70 T3 housing it should see full boost in the low 4s.

 

[turboglenn]

well, before i go for another turbo i have to figure out why my engine won't rev past 7220 any more. It just straight shuts off, it just started doing this while getting my meth tune dialed in in the higher PSI range. Now no matter what PSI i run, and i've got logs to prove it, I cannot rev past 7220, the boost will start to fall of because theres no exhaust energy and the injectors are still firing. It has to be something in the ignition syste, but what, i don't know... you wouldn't think it would be spark blow out at low boost. SO i have to figure out where the output signals are getting crossed or something

I think i'm liking the setup that street surgeon posted up for my T3 manifold (i don't want to go back to a mitsu flange, but i'm not afraid to do it either)

 

[beyond-redline]

If your not opposed to re-making your o2 housing/downpipe I'd recommend using the TRUE GT series exhaust housing on any new GT series turbo you would buy. The turbos can be ordered with a variety of housings (mitsu, T31, GT, etc) but to fully maximize the potential the 3in. outlet GT series housing is the best choice. Its a tight fit on 2G's but worth it in my opinion.

 

[JOEY A]

FP honestly makes a damn good product thats well worth the money


Ive scene alot of people on shitty tunes and setup half assed still putting down good times with there stuff

 

[slowgsr]

BW stuff over FP any day. no offense to the FP guys.. I dont like how the FP turbo's have the prevision for the external WG in the side of the exhaust housing, i guess thats so it can run with mitsu manifolds, boost probably isn't all that steady with a wastegate flange like that, probably experience good creep. Exhaust gases should be almost targeted to run out the wastegate.

BW S256 would do VERY well for you, efficient 350-550whp. Is there a reason why you want to run up to 30psi to make 475whp?

This turbo will make 475 easy, but it wont take close to 30psi, 30psi on alot of turbo's is pushing them to the limits of their efficiency range and IAT's start to skyrocket, it would be a much better idea to run low to mid 20's to make 475. Not to mention a turbo will last longer @ 20psi then @ 30psi. Also, for solid steady boost #'s, its a good idea not to exceed 1.5x your wastegate spring pressure, so to run 30psi you would need a 20psi spring, helps avoiding creeping and spiking.

I would rather see boost 400rpm later, and have to run less of it to make the same power, just me though.

Honda-Tech.com: Forced Induction: Turbo shootout results: BW S256 vs GT3076R

Interesting stuff in that thread with the BW VS the GT30 in spool up times, power ETC.

 

[turboglenn]

i really dono't care what PSI i run at, it's just that 30 would be the max unless i want to send off for a 4 or 5 bar map sensor and lose some tuning resolution (which i'd rather not...not to mention other issues with boost over 30's) I would prefer to run about 17-24 daily , idealy being more betwen 18-20psi, but if i have to push it higher on meth +pump i will

The car is a DD...So what RPM are some of these turbos spooled by on a T3 tubornetics manifold. Plus i need one without an external gate built on the housing since i have the mount in my header.

I can get foull boost on the 57 trim by 42-4500 in most gears ( even less in 5th) so i want sooner spool tthan that if it helps clarify what i'm looking for..

Since i'm not after every ounce of top end power but more of a wide range of usable power, i am ven considering going smaller to gain somehting from 3200-4500, since that area is about useless to me now for WOT use

Also keep in mind i want to retain stock fans as i've had tons of trouble with slim lines and running my air conditioning.. i wont give up my creature comforts for a few extra horses

 

[rrussell]

I dont like how the FP turbo's have the prevision for the external WG in the side of the exhaust housing, i guess thats so it can run with mitsu manifolds, boost probably isn't all that steady with a wastegate flange like that, probably experience good creep. Exhaust gases should be almost targeted to run out the wastegate.

FP 3065 This turbo can be ran as low as 10lbs of boost with not one singal sign of the dreadfull boost creep.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...d-performance-fp3065-fp3575-turbo-review.html

This has been proven over and over again.

 

[drivemusicnow]

BW stuff over FP any day. no offense to the FP guys.. I dont like how the FP turbo's have the prevision for the external WG in the side of the exhaust housing, i guess thats so it can run with mitsu manifolds, boost probably isn't all that steady with a wastegate flange like that, probably experience good creep. Exhaust gases should be almost targeted to run out the wastegate.

No. No no no no. The location of a wastegate on the turbine housing is quite possibly the single best wastegate solution there is. It will give you the most solid boost control and effects all cylinders equally. You are not comprehending what is going on inside the exhaust manifold whatsoever.

BW S256 would do VERY well for you, efficient 350-550whp. Is there a reason why you want to run up to 30psi to make 475whp?

This turbo will make 475 easy, but it wont take close to 30psi, 30psi on alot of turbo's is pushing them to the limits of their efficiency range and IAT's start to skyrocket, it would be a much better idea to run low to mid 20's to make 475. Not to mention a turbo will last longer @ 20psi then @ 30psi. Also, for solid steady boost #'s, its a good idea not to exceed 1.5x your wastegate spring pressure, so to run 30psi you would need a 20psi spring, helps avoiding creeping and spiking.

Why would you think that a turbo would last longer at one boost pressure versus another? A turbo is not fatigued by running at a higher pressure ratio. A turbo is not stressed significantly more with 10 psi more pressure. The RPM of a turbo doesn't change significantly at one pressure ratio versus another.

I would rather see boost 400rpm later, and have to run less of it to make the same power, just me though.

Honda-Tech.com: Forced Induction: Turbo shootout results: BW S256 vs GT3076R

Interesting stuff in that thread with the BW VS the GT30 in spool up times, power ETC.

Yes, and your thought process is the reason that so many people have overly large turbos for their needs. You do NOT need a gt35 frame turbo to make "500whp". You do NOT need to overshoot your goals by so much that you end up with a car that feels like a civic below 5k rpm. What you REALLY want is the maximum amount of area under the torque curve. Peak numbers are pretty, and nice, but in real life, they don't tell the whole story. Especially as the original post has explicitly stated he wants the fast spooling, most low end torque possible.

For anything under 550whp, you don't need a gt35. For 475 whp, and fast spool, I would highly recommend the FP3052 or it's stock t3 counterpart, the GT3076R. The FP turbo is a bolt on mitsu flanged turbo that has been proven up to almost 600 whp when you REALLY push it. Obviously to fully take advantage of these turbos a lot of supporting mods will need to be taken care of.

If you're thinking smaller to really get down low power you're going to give up power up top. A ball bearing 50 trim might be something to look into. This seems like it might be the way to go for you seeing as how you're worried about your A/C and stock fans.

I'm not saying that the BW S256 is a bad turbo, but it doesn't fit his needs nearly as well. Not to mention the bullseye "bolt on exhaust housing" leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Street Surgeon]

Honda-Tech.com: Forced Induction: Turbo shootout results: BW S256 vs GT3076R

Interesting stuff in that thread with the BW VS the GT30 in spool up times, power ETC.

Nice, looks like the power outputs are VERY similar, with the BW unit making sliiiiiightly more top end power, but the Garrett seems to spool more quickly, and have a more linear hp and tq curve. It also appears to be quite a bit smaller as far as packaging goes. Tough call, but if it were mine I think I'd still go with the 3076R.

 

[2gGSX]

You have to remember that all of those tests are on completely different platforms (with a much better head). Also, you should note that they are running a T3 housing on the 256 versus the bolt on Mitsu.

With that being said, a 256 is still a strong contender if you're advising the OP to look into a 3076R variant. The BEP housing will also knock the spool numbers down significantly when compared to the .70 T3, which would conceivably close the gap between spool even more.

As far as power, Steve93Talon has already posted proven numbers and spool times for this turbo.

 

[turboglenn]

Yes, and your thought process is the reason that so many people have overly large turbos for their needs. You do NOT need a gt35 frame turbo to make "500whp". You do NOT need to overshoot your goals by so much that you end up with a car that feels like a civic below 5k rpm. What you REALLY want is the maximum amount of area under the torque curve. Peak numbers are pretty, and nice, but in real life, they don't tell the whole story. Especially as the original post has explicitly stated he wants the fast spooling, most low end torque possible.

Exactly, and that's why i'm looking for one that's a solid 500HP maxed out at best, i really don't need over 450, but since i've pushed 468 off this turbo once, i don't really want to loose potential. I"m thinking a 50trim might be better suited because of it's choke line and surge limits compared to the old-school 57trim. I just want something that if i set it at 30, it STAYS at 30 till I shift, not falling off like smaller turbos do. This turbo needs a rebuild either way since the cold side inducer fins look like they ate a few bugs or somehting over the years and have a few nicks in them. So, i was just hoping to find something a little faster spooling with the same power potential. Maybe i'lldo like some of our road race cars and set it up with a BB 50trim and a stage II .48a/r hot side. Because as stated in my first post (which you caught onto) i'm wantint the widest possible power range without slipping back to a small compressor. I've almost even thought of a 20g, but then i'd be taking a step back IMO due to manifold and wastegate reasons.

Alot of DSM shops that are here now days i've never heard of. it was just the big 3 when i started this RRE, Busher and Extreme. Does anyone know where i can find a compressor map of the GT3076R? i can find the gt30r, but nothing with the "76" after it

 

[2gGSX]

TurboByGarrett.com - Catalog

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

sadly 80% of my work is porsche

I fail to see the sadness in that statement.