methanol injection Do it or Not worth it

[silvertsi]

Hey Guys

I wanted to know what are your thoughts and experiences with methanol injection or
water injection.

- Did you feel the difference in performance at the same boost level
- Would you do it a gain if you had the chance to.
- what issues did you have
- is there any long term damage from using this.
- what kit would you recomend

I guess I am thinking on doing this mod. I don't want to run crazy boost #'s 20 PSI or
some where around there

My Mods are SBRGT12 Turbo(Internal Gate) Keydiver Chip and SAFC. 650 FIC Injectors
3' Exhaust no CAT Going to get FP2 Cams before I do this mod.

Thanks Guys

 

[nukefission]

Methanol injection is the best substitute for race gas. It definitely offers a lot of potential, but you better know what you're doing and have the right engine components to pull it off. I speak from experience as I just recently blew my car up after fitting a meth kit to it. Details here.

The kit I got from alkycontrol.com is quite good. It includes everything you need and is pretty comprehensive in its controls and failsafes. It was working flawlessly in my car; my motor gave out due mostly to mechanical shortcomings.

 

[gixrman]

I agree, one of the best mods I did. I did the DIY kit with a 80/20 mix. You really feel it it in the summer when its hot out. I run a two stage right now but want to switch to a progressive setup.

On a side note: Nuke you thinking about a 2.4LR for your next rebuild? Sorry for your loss, sounded like a wicked motor.

 

[silvertsi]

Nuke

I read the post quickly and might have missed something. So you blew up at 30 PSI
right?

I want to run it at 20 PSI 25 at most as I do not have the Intrenals to run more boost. Would you think this will be OK.

Will I feel a diffirence at 20PSI or its made for High Boos situations. Basically what I want is
lets take this senario if I run a car and lose at 20PSI Then we line up againe
and I flip the Meth Switch to ON (Not sure if its an allways on applications or not) then
we run againe will I beat him at the same boost level.. Do you see where I am going with
this.

 

[Steve93Talon]

I just recently blew my car up after fitting a meth kit to it.

From reading your story, it sounds highly unlikely that your engine blew because of the meth kit. There are plenty of people, on stock and built bottom ends, running meth kits in combination with pump gas at high boost with race gas-like power being the result reliably (myself included).

 

[aero_sallee]

From reading your story, it sounds highly unlikely that your engine blew because of the meth kit. There are plenty of people, on stock and built bottom ends, running meth kits in combination with pump gas at high boost with race gas-like power being the result reliably (myself included).

He didn't imply that it did at all. He said it happened with the kit on the car.

It was working flawlessly in my car; my motor gave out due mostly to mechanical shortcomings.
Today 10:36 AM

In his thread he says that it was most likely due to insufficient piston-cylinder wall clearance for the kind of power he was putting down.

 

[dsm-onster]

Hey Guys

I wanted to know what are your thoughts and experiences with methanol injection or
water injection.

- Did you feel the difference in performance at the same boost level

A little bit. But i was able to run 7 MORE!!! psi at a leaner tune.

- Would you do it a gain if you had the chance to.

Without at doubt. Any boosted car i get after this will have a kit added before I do any other mods!!!

- what issues did you have

Clogging my water injection nozzle. Use distilled water/alky from the beginning.

- is there any long term damage from using this.

No, but there is long term damage from NOT using this with super high boost (destroyed pistons, blocks, rings, etc). Water/alky injection has the added benefit of steam cleaning your intake, head and valves, and combustion chamber.

- what kit would you recomend

I've had this one kit on two turbo cars for 3 years. Here's the link.

I guess I am thinking on doing this mod. I don't want to run crazy boost #'s 20 PSI or some where around there

You'll get away with WAY more than you think...

My Mods are SBRGT12 Turbo(Internal Gate) Keydiver Chip and SAFC. 650 FIC Injectors
3' Exhaust no CAT Going to get FP2 Cams before I do this mod.

The above kit I mentioned will alow you to max out your current set up without any knock, at all.

Yes, water/alky injection is like Christ is to Christianity!!!

 

[nukefission]

You should be fine at 20 psi. The big advantage to adding meth is that it effectively increases the octane of the fuel mixture. Not only does this allow you to run more boost safely, it also allows you to dial in more timing advance. The difference in timing advance at the same boost between meth and no meth should net you a decent amount of power.

I am not blaming the meth kit for my motor troubles. Several different factors came into play; wall clearance was one of them. Meth can preignite easily if you aren't careful, which is part of what we believe happened in my case. There may have also been a defect in the wall of cylinder 3 itself.

I am as yet undecided on the new motor. A long rod 2.4 would be nice, but procuring another 2.4 block is a hassle I don't want to deal with. My 2.4 crank checked out, so I will probably just use it in my old 2.0 block to make a 2.3, and use lower compression pistons and stronger rods.

 

[ginsu417]

Chiming in late like a crackhead...

I'm running water/alchohol injection on my '94GSX, and the increase in power is worthwhile. But you have to tune it. Adding just the injection kit by itself and cranking up the boost could actually reduce your power output. The real gains come from being able to lean it out and jack up the timing. I currently run 20psi on pump gas (as a low boost) with water/alchohol injection - no knock at all, and 25 or so high boost (tuning gets a little hairy at that pressure, on pump). I think it's well worth it, provided you set it up with the right stuff, and tune it. And don't let the reservior run dry when you're half way down the track. I hear that's a bad thing.

 

[Joesmoke]

All said above is very accurate from my experiences as well. And as said before, the power comes from leaning out and upping timing....of course, you are now relying on the methaol to keep it together, so take care of it. I lost a pump once, and immedeiatly began to knock hard. No damage done in the short time though.

It will extend the time you run on your stock smic and injectors.

Alkycontrol kit for me !

 

[1SloColt]

You actually DO NOT want to lean out meth because just as Victor said, it can preignite. Better have a wideband and tune for low 11s AFR wise. Some people have had zero problems leaning out meth but others have had total nightmares, like in Victor's case. I totally agree with Victor that you better know WTF you are doing when you dive into a meth setup. An alky/water injection kit is weaksauce compared to messing around with methanol.

 

[90CherryTSI]

I felt gains from my set up immediately. I run two inline filters with 1/2 water 1/2 wiper fluid. Did wonders for knock...until my pump failed. I noticed it went pretty quickly. I'm only running 16lbs on a 14B with bolt-ons and a bit of internal work.

 

[ginsu417]

You actually DO NOT want to lean out meth because just as Victor said, it can preignite. Better have a wideband and tune for low 11s AFR wise. Some people have had zero problems leaning out meth but others have had total nightmares, like in Victor's case. I totally agree with Victor that you better know WTF you are doing when you dive into a meth setup. An alky/water injection kit is weaksauce compared to messing around with methanol.

I don't totally agree with that AFR, but I'm not willing to go to war over it as I'm on water/alchohol and not straight meth injection. I just know my plugs are white, my wideband is telling me I'm 12:1 at best, and it pulls like a sexually molested primate and it doesn't knock. But let's clarify for the average n00b with the bone stock 2G who is thinking of picking up a kit. You will HAVE to lean it out - even to keep AFR constant. Because it is like adding a 5th fuel injector and will effectively reduce the number of oxygen molecules in the mixture, and make the car way rich. I know, I know, I'm a troublemaker.

 

[dsm-onster]

I don't totally agree with that AFR, but I'm not willing to go to war over it as I'm on water/alchohol and not straight meth injection. I just know my plugs are white, my wideband is telling me I'm 12:1 at best, and it pulls like a sexually molested primate and it doesn't knock. But let's clarify for the average n00b with the bone stock 2G who is thinking of picking up a kit. You will HAVE to lean it out - even to keep AFR constant. Because it is like adding a 5th fuel injector and will effectively reduce the number of oxygen molecules in the mixture, and make the car way rich. I know, I know, I'm a troublemaker.

My air/fuel ratios did not change at all when I installed my kit and took it out for a spin. I know because I am running an LM-1 and i have it logging into my DSMLink. You can get horsepower via 3 adjustments: running more boost, running leaner, adding more timing (Air, Fuel, Spark). "Adding just the injection kit by itself and cranking up the boost" actually increased my power output substancially!!! I was running an edgy tune before instalation; running from 3-5 counts of knock before heatsoaking my front mount, and running from 15+ counts of knock after heat soak. Running the ragged edge for sure (11.5:1 afr). After my install, immediately I was able to add several psi of boost and with ZERO knock maintaning the same AFR.

But no matter whatever happened to your setup, you got good results !!!

 

[silvertsi]

Thanks for the replays guys.. So let me understand this.

You guys have these Kits on and running all the time? You don't use it in a race situation only? To get the best results I will need to up the boost and run that boost level all the time?

 

[Joesmoke]

Yes, my system is on all the time. It activates at 0 psi and sprays throughout.

Most systems are always "on" and set to activate at the psi level you set.

To get the most from injection, tune for combination leaner fuel/increased timing more boost.

When you turn the boost down, and do not adjust the injection, you will just run a little richer, and the car may feel a little boggy.

Jason

 

[dsm-onster]

I have my setup on all the time too. Mine comes on at 8-9 psi. I figured, "why not?" as I was not going through that much fluid to be a bother to me. I run a mix. So having this on all the time has the added benefit of steam cleaning my intake tracks and combustion chamber. I pulled my head a month ago and I was really suprised at how clean my head was. It was as if the head had been redone a week ago!

 

[92awdgsx]

These are really good kits.

http://hyp-drive.com/products/alcoholinj.htm

I know of about 30 cars with this kit on, and they work great.

 

[wishihadatalon]

aqua mist I have been thinking about this but with so many more projects ahead of this one it will be a while till I do.

 

[coltboostin]

Nuke

I read the post quickly and might have missed something. So you blew up at 30 PSI
right?

I want to run it at 20 PSI 25 at most as I do not have the Intrenals to run more boost. Would you think this will be OK.

Will I feel a diffirence at 20PSI or its made for High Boos situations. Basically what I want is
lets take this senario if I run a car and lose at 20PSI Then we line up againe
and I flip the Meth Switch to ON (Not sure if its an allways on applications or not) then
we run againe will I beat him at the same boost level.. Do you see where I am going with
this.

You will not see more power at a given boost level. It is a detonation inhibiter, allowing you to run more boost on pump.

As for Nuke, I have seen this befor, and I think if you were really @30psi, you were asking for it, even if the meth was working flawlessly.

 

[MrBoxx]

You will not see more power at a given boost level. It is a detonation inhibiter, allowing you to run more boost on pump.

Detonation=Knock=ECU pulling timing=Less power

So let's say the guy is boosting at 20 psi and gets enough counts of knock for the ECU to pull timing. Next run, 20 psi+ alky injection to reduce the knock, ECU advances timing and makes more power. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[dsm-onster]

You will not see more power at a given boost level. It is a detonation inhibiter, allowing you to run more boost on pump.

I agree. You will however see an icrease in power if you're running at a leverl where you're getting some (or alot of) knock. If you've got an aggresive tune where you get 5-8 counts of knock, then switch to water injection (metered properly, of course), you should feal about 20 more horsepower (3 counts of knock = 1 degree of timing retard; & 1 degree of timing retard is about -10 horsepower).

As for Nuke, I have seen this befor, and I think if you were really @30psi, you were asking for it, even if the meth was working flawlessly.[/QUOTE]

Even with my 6-bolt (like Nuke has/had, I wouldn't be supprised if I popped it any time now...knock on wood. But I can't say.

 

[coltboostin]

Detonation=Knock=ECU pulling timing=Less power

So let's say the guy is boosting at 20 psi and gets enough counts of knock for the ECU to pull timing. Next run, 20 psi+ alky injection to reduce the knock, ECU advances timing and makes more power. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I think he is speaking in an "all things being equal" senario, where as alky injection is a power adder.

If you have a good tune@20psi, you will not make more power @20psi with alky. I belive thats the question he was asking.

Simply put, alky injection is not a power adder.

As for Nuke's car-I read the whole thread, and I retract my previous statement. It is feesable for a catastrophy like that if you were under heavy lead @30psi and ran low/out of alky, but with the good rod's and pistons, I would not expect that.

Run her loose, let them clap until it warms up.

 

[dsm-onster]

Detonation=Knock=ECU pulling timing=Less power

So let's say the guy is boosting at 20 psi and gets enough counts of knock for the ECU to pull timing. Next run, 20 psi+ alky injection to reduce the knock, ECU advances timing and makes more power. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I think you're right. See my above post . I think I dropped it at the same time you did .

 

[dsm-onster]

I think he is speaking in an "all things being equal" senario, where as alky injection is a power adder.

If you have a good tune@20psi, you will not make more power @20psi with alky. I belive thats the question he was asking.

Simply put, alky injection is not a power adder.

I really feel like were flaming you right now... but I promise I'm not and I don't think anyone who has replied here has any intention of the same.

However, my neighbor and friend has supercharged his LS1 powered Chevy suburban. He was getting no knock whatsoever. He added the water injection and gained significant "seat of the pants" increases which translates into torque. We have installed a scanmaster and we noted his decrease in intake manifold air temps as his water injection cuts in... as opposed to no water injection being use at all (where he got zero knock at the same boost). The mist lowers air temps enough to qualify as a front mount intercooler, as I deducted.