20G vs the 50 trim, E/T difference?

[BlackbirdOfPrey]

Ok this is a question that has been nagging me for some time. Why is it that there are plenty of 20g turbos in the 10's or with impressive timeslips, and yet with the recent craze for 50trim or equivalent turbos(PTE, AGP, Bullseye), we haven't seen any great times out of them? Is the 20g just better engineered? or is it that people buying 50 trims don't know how to tune them? or are they skimping on mods? or some other issue? If you look on the fastest times lists (AWD) , you don't see many 50 trims past the 12's. I see about 20 of the fastest times (11's or better) on 20gs and maybe 3 on 50 trims (2 PTE's and one AGP). The 50 trim is bigger, with more current engineering, and cheaper making it easier for more people to get, why is there such a discrepancy?

 

[Steve93Talon]

First off, you may not realize that a Green is a 50 trim. That will make your count go up. Secondly, the 20g is considered old school and with the cheap pricing of hybrids lately, there's no reason to drop $1k+ on a 20g anymore for most people. So what happens is the hardcore guys who are running 20g's tune and drive their car to it's potential, while all these newcomers who are bolting on a 50 trim because it's relatively cheap either have no desire to run that fast, dont have the supporting mods, or are afraid to crank the boost and drive it hard enough. Lastly, the 20g has been around for a long time, so of course there are more of them that have run good numbers. (I ran a 50 trim on my car, and after driving Tort's I'd rather have the 20g )

 

[DSM90AWD]

(I ran a 50 trim on my car, and after driving Tort's I'd rather have the 20g )

But the TO4E cover is oh so much more impressive when you pop the hood

Other than that I agree 100% with Steve. 20Gs have been around a LONG time. I remember an old issue of Turbo Mag with the 10 Quickest DSMs. All but 2 were running 20Gs.

Nowadays there are just so many choices in turbos that there is no one standout over others w.r.t. performance. Just pick one, tune it to the bone and enjoy.

 

[Jeff_Jeske]

There are a few diffferent types of 20G's as well.

After countless hours of searching I have found that the TD06H 20G is the most recommended 20G to get.

The TDO6H will spool faster than a GREEN and still move 48LBS of air. Most of these are at full spool 24PSI by 3700. They get partial spool 15PSI by 3500.

There is also a cheaper version of the 20G the TDO5. These will not flow as much as an 06H but will have somewhat quicker spool....maybe by 200 RPM. Too minor to notice if you ask me.

Other options are more expensive but better supposedly better than the above.

1. GT30R - full spool 3200-3500
2. FP3052 - full spool 3800 - Most recommended if money is not an issue.
3. Slowboy GT11 - full spool 3800
4. SCM50 or SCM32 - full boost 3700 - bolt ons

For the price ....the green isn't the best choice these days. Though it has been proven to be a very reliable and hi-performance pump gas turbo.

There are other things to consider though.....like external wastegates and O2 housings.
Some of these bad boys will cost a grip to do right.

 

[Rob Rohr]

1. GT30R - full spool 3200-3500
2. FP3052 - full spool 3800 - Most recommended if money is not an issue.
3. Slowboy GT11 - full spool 3800
4. SCM50 or SCM32 - full boost 3700 - bolt ons

For the price ....the green isn't the best choice these days. Though it has been proven to be a very reliable and hi-performance pump gas turbo.

There are other things to consider though.....like external wastegates and O2 housings.
Some of these bad boys will cost a grip to do right.

Of all these choices I think only the Green and 20g are available internally gated. I would love a GT30R but I am not willing to change the manifold or go external. I wish FP would build an internal FP2052!

 

[gasguzzler]

The SCM50, SCM32, and GT30R are all available with the internal gate from PTE

 

[Jeff_Jeske]

The SCM50, SCM32, and GT30R are all available with the internal gate from PTE

The GT30R and SCM32 are very similar.....I think the only difference is whether the bolt on to the factory exhaust manifold or not. The SCM32 is a 54trim but is listed as making less power than the SCM50. Most people with a 54trim say its a great middle of the road turbo but it doesn't really shine at spool or top end. They recommend getting the SCM50 right from the start.

Personally I like the green and the TDO6H but considering the age and design of both ...to me...they are still overpriced.

The only reason you see so many more quick times with these is because they have been around soo much longer and there are so many more out there.

There is very little info about the SCM32. It seems to me like it would be perfect for me but there just aren't any stunning reviews. I guess that goes for alot of the new 50 trim turbos as well. Lots of yahoos put 50 trims on without the supporting mods and time investment into tuning them. Many of the old school guys are pushing 20Gs to the bleeding edge with top notch tunes.

When considering a turbo this big you should seriously consider an external WG as well. 90% of the interal gates on a wheel this big will have creep issues or weak internal gate spring issues. When considering the price of an interal gate is about $100 and an external is about $250 it seems kinda senseless to not spend the extra $150 to do it right. The only legit argument I have heard is emissions issues. I can see where it would be hard to explain a dump or rerouted wg to an inspector.

What is it that you are looking for? Compareing time slips is really a wasted effort. Comparing spool and airflow is the best way to go. On my FP Big28 and stock 7 bolt I am moving 35LBS of air @ 20 PSI. I have full spool by 3100RPM. I am looking for a replacement but not sure if I can swallow the addtional 800RPM of lag just for 50 more HP. I am actually considering putting nitrous on the car instead.

 

[BlackbirdOfPrey]

The only reason you see so many more quick times with these is because they have been around soo much longer and there are so many more out there.

True, but this should be offset by the fact that ALL of the 50 trims are cheaper to purchase, and are bigger in size and power outputs. You'd think you'd see dozens of 50 trim type turbos on that list, but the green is the only one that really shows up (and if you ask me the green is a special case).

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

True, but this should be offset by the fact that ALL of the 50 trims are cheaper to purchase, and are bigger in size and power outputs. You'd think you'd see dozens of 50 trim type turbos on that list, but the green is the only one that really shows up (and if you ask me the green is a special case).

It's special because it was built with the right parts from the beginning. Didn't use some POS 270 degree thrust bearing that ate itself up within 500 miles.

 

[pickens]

The problem w/ most 50 trims is that they fail pretty early in their life. There are lots of people who have had their 50' fail in less than 5k miles or so. On the average, it seems they just don't hold up to the everyday grueling life hanging off the ol' 4G63. Stick w/ Mitsu (i.e. 20g) or Authentic Garrett cartridges. 50 trims have been around long enough to make a stand, but yet, you still see the 20g kickin arse. I can safely say I have very rarely heard of any quality issues or premature failures from any Mitsu or Garrett turbo. I can't say the same for some of the "50 trim" manufacturers.

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

Pickens,
Actually it all has to do with the parts that make up the whole assembly. The only 50 trim that's tried and true thru and thru is the FP Green. Why? Because he used the best parts available at the time. That's why it cost so damn much compared to those other cheap ass bolt on 50 trims.

 

[DSM90AWD]

The problem w/ most 50 trims is that they fail pretty early in their life. There are lots of people who have had their 50' fail in less than 5k miles or so

You get what you pay for. If you buy a 50-trim from AGP/FP you get a reliable Garrett Turbo. If you buy a $599 50-trim from Turbos "R" Us (*cough* PTE *cough*), well.. you get what you pay for.

Not to persuade/dissuade you from either turbo as both have performed very well (I run an AGP 50-trim). Just make sure you spend the money and buy from a reputable builder

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

You get what you pay for. If you buy a 50-trim from AGP/FP you get a reliable Garrett Turbo. If you buy a $599 50-trim from Turbos "R" Us (*cough* PTE *cough*), well.. you get what you pay for.

Of course you know that the AGP 50 trim is the EXACT same CHRA as a PTE 50 trim right??All those 50 trims out there are all exactly the same thing, just slightly different turbine housings. The only 50 trim that isn't like the rest is the FP Green.

 

[BaddAssGst]

What is it that you are looking for? Compareing time slips is really a wasted effort. Comparing spool and airflow is the best way to go. On my FP Big28 and stock 7 bolt I am moving 35LBS of air @ 20 PSI. I have full spool by 3100RPM. I am looking for a replacement but not sure if I can swallow the addtional 800RPM of lag just for 50 more HP. I am actually considering putting nitrous on the car instead.

I don't know about the rest of the guys but if you could make 50 more hp and still spool at less then 4000, I'd say go for it. I don't know what you use your car for and almost 1000rpm will make it seem less streetable, but at the same time, it will still be very streetable. All I know is that I would sacrafice spool time for power.

 

[NeEmO6]

Why does everyone forget that the 50trim has been out for a while now, actually its been a few years now. Being a previous 50 trim owner I was never really impressed. And yet other than the Green you dont see or hear of anything impressive out of the 50 trims. All that ive seen from the "fad" 50 trims is nothing more impressive that a well tuned big16g can do. Ive seen many 16g's in the low 12's and well into the 300+hp mark, and some of these turbos have well over 50k miles on them. Its just now that dsm's are everywhere and money is to be made by many vendors, I just stick w/ the tried and true turbo vendor ya u pay more but ur paying for quality and peace of mind for something that is proven.

 

[n3gativerr0r]

I think alot of it is just the people that the bolt on 50trim appeals to. In my experience there are 3 different "breeds" of drag oriented DSMers

1. Small turbo guys ie 16gs, 14b, T28. Most of these guys just want a balanced reliable setup on the street and will use VP when they go to the track. Frankly I see more fast times around where I live from these guys, than with the bigger turbo crowd. IE ShapeGSX

2. Max effort street guys. These guys usually have a stock bottom end with half assed supporting mods. They just run turbos too big for their setup and really have nothing to show for it but a peaky max power dyno slip and maybe a 12 sec timeslip on pump, cause they are scared to use real gas cause their stock bottom end or tranny will pop. This is where the cheapo internal gate 50trim really fits in, more and more Im seeing 60-1s in this group as well.

3. Then you got the all out drag guys and the DSM shops. These are you forged motor, state of the art turbo crowd dumping alot of money into their car.


Basically I think the reason why the 50trim is not putting down better numbers is because the people who are buying them. In order to go REALLY fast with one of these you gotta put alot of money into your car if you want it to be reliable. Well, if your gonna do that your not gonna get a 50 trim.. your gonna get a 3052, 3065, GT35r or the like.

 

[BlackbirdOfPrey]

1. Small turbo guys ie 16gs, 14b

Thats going to be my car for a while, The turbo is going to be the last thing I put on my car. I'll end up with a ported 14b with a bigass intercooler and large injectors, but it should be fun as all hell.

more and more Im seeing 60-1s in this group as well.

The main reason that is because the 60-1s are cheap these days too. I plan on getting one, just because I want something with balls to the wall power (and I'm gonna have all the mods for it too). Honestly I think most of it is the money factor. Why buy a 16g for 575ish dollars when you can spend a little more and get a much bigger turbo? Never mind your motor can't support it, its bigger, who cares? (not my thoughts, but thats the common mentality). BTW I have yet to see a ball bearing turbo perform better than its standard bearing equivalent to justify the outrageous prices they want for them. Unless you are someone who wants the latest and greatest, (or are a competition driver) I don't see a point for paying 1300 bucks for a turbo that performs MARGINALLY better than a 799 turbo.

 

[peregrine]

You get what you pay for. If you buy a 50-trim from AGP/FP you get a reliable Garrett Turbo. If you buy a $599 50-trim from Turbos "R" Us (*cough* PTE *cough*), well.. you get what you pay for.

Not to persuade/dissuade you from either turbo as both have performed very well (I run an AGP 50-trim). Just make sure you spend the money and buy from a reputable builder

you know EXACTLY what your talking about PTE sponsors some of the fastest cars in the world. domestic and import. they have great customer service too. ive had three PTE turbos with no problems whatsoever. its cool to champion who you bought your turbo from but be more informed when you post.

 

[DSM90AWD]

you know EXACTLY what your talking about PTE sponsors some of the fastest cars in the world. domestic and import. they have great customer service too. ive had three PTE turbos with no problems whatsoever. its cool to champion who you bought your turbo from but be more informed when you post.

Yes, PTE can make some kick ass purpose-built turbos that sustain boost for 7-8secs at a time. But if you SEARCH on this forum or any other DSM forum you'll see that the mass-produced variants that are available for $599 have had more failure rates in the past on DSMs than any other brand (save the Mutts).

It's nice that they have a good warranty, and maybe their turbos are better now than they were in the past, but for me to spend a couple hours re/re a turbo + time down + gaskets, I'd rather spend the extra $ and get a pr oven turbo. Hell, I still won't buy a Hyundai

But as this thread is about 20Gs and 50-trims in general. I suggest scrolling down the DSM Times and see just how equal they really are (actually very close in #s).

 

[DSM90AWD]

Of course you know that the AGP 50 trim is the EXACT same CHRA as a PTE 50 trim right??

Yes, but AGP (as FP) bolt/screw down their thrust bearings which greatly increases bearing dependability and life. AGP/FP have also always used the 360degree race bearings. And whenever I've called AGP i got someone whom knew what they were talking about. I was very close to buying a PTE two years ago, but with all the Hype from dorm-room resellers and lack of knowledge of DSMs in general at PTE, I was put off by their products.

All those 50 trims out there are all exactly the same thing, just slightly different turbine housings. The only 50 trim that isn't like the rest is the FP Green.

Which is exactly slightly different to a Frank50 (or any of the other FP copycats out there) just better made/supported

 

[LessIsMore]

Most of the 50 trims on the market today use turbine housings that were not designed for a Garrett turbine wheel. Bullseye and Slowboy cast their own Mitsu style turbine housing and adapt them to Garrett CHRA. Performance is sacrificed for ease of installation.

On the other hand the FP Green uses a Mitsu turbine wheel in a Mitsu housing, where it belongs. Same thing goes for a 20g. The TD06H turbine is a proven performer in a 7cm/8cm housing. I feel this has a lot to do with why the Green/20G have and will continue to outperform "50 trims" with compromised hot sides.

 

[peregrine]

Most of the 50 trims on the market today use turbine housings that were not designed for a Garrett turbine wheel. Bullseye and Slowboy cast their own Mitsu style turbine housing and adapt them to Garrett CHRA. Performance is sacrificed for ease of installation.

On the other hand the FP Green uses a Mitsu turbine wheel in a Mitsu housing, where it belongs. Same thing goes for a 20g. The TD06H turbine is a proven performer in a 7cm/8cm housing. I feel this has a lot to do with why the Green/20G have and will continue to outperform "50 trims" with compromised hot sides.

which is why i went full garrett on my setup

 

[VRMAN]

I have an SCM32 on my car and I think it has the potential to be a good power maker. I am getting 20psi at 4100rpms right now but I'm still working on getting it tuned. Some days it feels very fast and other days it feels like a dog. When this turbo goes I think I may just stick with a tried and true td06 20G. It may seem like old school technology but its proven itself. If not that, then I'm looking into a ball bearing 50 trim. I mainly want something that is extremely efficient on pump gas and I'm not convinced the 54 trim is that. I bought it to try to get some good numbers out of an unproven platform, I'll still be doing that and keep you guys updated as to how it's working out.

 

[redboosted97]

I am seriously unsure about what I want to do. I was thinking about going with a larger turbo like a 20g but am hearing mixed feelings from people about getting ride of my turbo setup. I have an XS-Engineering Killer 16g, 550rc's, EFI systems PMS engine managment, Full gredding 3 inch from the turbo back, 255 fuel pump, act 2600, boost controller.I have comming the Coil on plug setup from bushur racing but its on back order, and I ordered an evo 3 manifold. I was talking to XS about it and they said i could make around 350 whp but however giving the proper tuning I may be able to reach the 400 mark possibly. My car is FWD and all i really want is 400hp because even now i have traction issues,but I want to start another project like a 1st generation build and dono if i should waste my money on it, but I want to hear opinions if I should go with a 20g or a 50trim and also i saw that turbonetics has an rs-60 trim for $699.00. Feedback definatly appreciated

 

[deusxmachina]

2. Max effort street guys. These guys usually have a stock bottom end with half assed supporting mods. They just run turbos too big for their setup and really have nothing to show for it but a peaky max power dyno slip and maybe a 12 sec timeslip on pump, cause they are scared to use real gas cause their stock bottom end or tranny will pop. This is where the cheapo internal gate 50trim really fits in, more and more Im seeing 60-1s in this group as well.

Overall, this sounds about right. Although "scared to use real gas" is a bit over the top since "max effort street" implies using street gas on most occasions. Nothing wrong with a 12 on pump on a "stock" engine, regardless of turbo.

Someone, I think Dre, once said most people will probably get in the low 300whp range on pump gas no matter what turbo they use because "most" people are too lazy or simply don't care about all the little things that need attending to to make big numbers. Most cars are true daily drivers, and it gets old putting in wrenching time on a daily driver trying to keep it top-notch just to drive to work and the grocery store and going to the track a few times a year.

Some insert-name-here 50-trims use 270 thrust bearings, but that should affect life, not power. PTE's apparently all use 360's since whatever date a year or more ago. Early ones were also often being oiled off the head, which is now considered to be so bad it voids the warranty. As for other 50-trim sellers, I don't know how many times it takes saying it before people stop buying the 270 junk. I won't bother naming names since if anyone doesn't know it by now then good luck with the rest of your car.