Holset Turbos

Morphius · 10-02-2004, 04:14 AM

Has anyone here actually installed a Holset turbo on their car? I've read on DSMtalk of at least one person that has. Another one or two here that want to, but not alot of info. Most of those discussing it, are utilizing the HX-35. This turbo is on pre-2002 Dodge Cummins engines. Bullseye has a housing out that allows you to adapt a HX-35/40 to a DSM utilizing the stock O2 housing and downpipe. Anyone running that?

Personally, I'm looking at the HY-35, which is post-2002. My point/question is this: I've got compressor maps for 2002-2004 and the 2004.5 (600ft-lb upgrade) model years. Plotting a line of compressor ratio to air flow, you'll find that @ 8psi the 2.0L starts out, outside the map to the left of the surge line. Then, around 2500rpm it crosses it. At 15psi, you're near 4 or 5000rpm when crossing the surge line. My question is, how bad is it to be crossing that line as you start to increase air flow? I thought the general rule of thumb was you want to be in the middle of the map from min to max cfm. Not crossing any boundaries.

I don't have the maps for the HX series, but might be able to get it. I would expect that the maps for the HX and HY would be very close. If this is the case, what are the effects that people are seeing as they cross the surge line?

I've got a HY to try on my diesel, but, it would seem that to get as much of the engines CFM within the boundaries of the map, it needs to run lower than 8 or 10 psi, even then it's crossing the surge line around 2500rpm.

Morphius · 10-02-2004, 05:00 AM

Here's a pic of a HY-35 next to a 14B:
(I'll post specs/trim levels later)

1029TSG · 10-02-2004, 03:01 PM

This is David with Bullseye Power. I can tell you that we have 9 test units in the field at this time and have found great results. We also have 4 HX-40 units currently being tested. We have yet to find any issues with hitting the surge limit in the real world. We have seen anywhere from 15-20 psi coming in between 3200-3700 rpm on the 35, so this would be a great street combination. Also, with the 40 we have already had one customer put down 549 at the wheels at 20 psi. We are currently doing side by side comparisons on this same vehicle using the Garrett T-66.

Morphius · 10-03-2004, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1029TSG

This is David with Bullseye Power. I can tell you that we have 9 test units in the field at this time and have found great results. We also have 4 HX-40 units currently being tested. We have yet to find any issues with hitting the surge limit in the real world. We have seen anywhere from 15-20 psi coming in between 3200-3700 rpm on the 35, so this would be a great street combination. Also, with the 40 we have already had one customer put down 549 at the wheels at 20 psi. We are currently doing side by side comparisons on this same vehicle using the Garrett T-66.

Dave,

Very interesting. The rpm at which they are hitting full boost sounds about the same as those people I've read about. My problem is my diesel engine has a redline around 6000 rpm. When it hits full boost at 3200-3700rpm, I would be quickly running out of usable RPM.

1. Are those units OEM units off production trucks with your exhaust housing?
2. Do you have specs on HX series they are using...... trim, etc?
3. Do you have compressor maps for the HX?
4. As the airflow on the engine increases at a constant pressure ratio (CPR), do they cross the surge line? In your experience, do the effects of it decrease as you are building boost? (ie the line is not a CPR and your pressure line vs CFM is exponential in growth, entering the map at a low PR and crossing the surge threshold low<<< the second would be 'real world' correct? where as the first, a CPR, would assume you have hit full boost right away)

Based on the HY compressor map, I'm highly skeptical as to how well this will work and wonder on what effects the surge, if it does, will have. Have you experienced the effects of hitting the surge line/limit?

Next week, I'll be talking to a Cummins engineer and will get the specs on the turbos I have. (I got the maps and forgot to get the specs!!)

PS. You guys should build a housing to utilize the HY series turbo!!! I wouldn't think there is too much difference in the housing, simply the attachment of the cartridge to the exhaust housing.

defrag010 · 10-03-2004, 12:22 PM

I'm looking into doing the exact same thing as you are. I'm going to get a hx35 with the bullseye housing.
I had heard of people nabbing 20G's off of fuso trucks, and I started researching big turbocharged motors that came in consumer cars and came across the good o'l cummins dodge.
From what i've researched, the Only difference between the hx and hy turbos are the turbine housing. The hy has a 12cm housing while the hx has a 16cm. The HY came on the autos because of spool up time. Other than that, same turbo. The 1st gen dodges came with a holset H1C or WH1C turbo, which is different.
The compressor map is almost the same as a 60-1. You can email them at www.holset.co.uk and they will send you the map.
The turbos came stock on dodge cummins trucks from mid-95 to 2001.

I'm very interested to see how this will work out. I just wish the bullseye housing wasn't 230$

1029TSG · 10-03-2004, 01:55 PM

Actually its only $170, unless you want to run the 38mm internal gate then its $220. I can even throw in some free ground shipping for dsmtuner members. Just be sure the HY isn't a V-Band clamp that holds the cartridge to the bearing housing, ours only uses the clamp down style.

defrag010 · 10-03-2004, 07:32 PM

cool!!!

yeah, I saw it on your site for 170, but I couldn't remember if it was 50 or 60 dollars more for the internal gate. I'm saving up money right now and once I've got enough for the turbo and housing, i'll definately give you a ring.

Morphius · 10-07-2004, 08:09 PM

I've got an update on the Holset turbos. I contacted a Cummins engineer that works with Holset and he passed on the following info. Hopefully, I'll be getting compressor maps for the HX series soon and trim levels on the HX and HY.

HX35 was used from 1994 through 2002. In '00 the "HY35" was used on automatics. Both the HX and HY use the same compressor stages. The HX35 uses a divided turbine housing (critical area 12cmsq) with a 70cm turbine wheel and the HY35 uses a non divided 9cmsq housing with a 65mm turbine wheel. Typically a divided casing is better at lower speeds (pulse conservation) than an undivided housing, but not as good at higher speeds/flows. To
compensate for this, for the same flows, a non divided casing would need to be smaller (in critical area) than a divided one. Thus, the reason the HY has a smaller critical area, turbine wheel.

For 2003-2004.5 the model on all diesels was the HY35. It uses a 77mm o/d compressor wheel with a 65mm turbine wheel. It also has a 9cmsq housing. (they use critical area instead of A/R)

2004.5-present has a new model that has a smaller map with a higher surge line and an electronic controlled wasgate acutator. Due to the electronic componentry now, it won't lend itself to be as adaptable.

Morphius · 10-08-2004, 07:10 PM

Here are some HX/HY-35 maps. Boost pressure at 20 psi (pressure ratio calculated from that), with cfm plotted from 500 to 8000 rpm. Pre-2003 HX-35 in Green. 2003 - 2004.5 HY-35 in Black. 2004.5 - Present HY-35 in Red. This is for 2.0L of displacment. (Excuse the updated graph, as I have some small changes yet to make to the fonts and scales, but the maps are correct.)

Morphius · 10-08-2004, 07:12 PM

Again same thing, only at 12 psi.

thekellbeast · 10-08-2004, 11:55 PM

Edit: My post is now useless.

Morphius · 10-09-2004, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thekellbeast

Hey, you just said each chart was at 15 psi. Obviously, that's wrong. If I wanted to convert whatever to psi, I could, but I'm a little too under the influence to do that. Do you mind posting the correct psi ratings whenever you see this? Sorry.

Edit: I'm sorry if I sound like an ass, I'm really trying to be helpful. I'm looking through my textbook right now.

Check my edits. Does it make sense now?

pinknuggit · 10-09-2004, 07:41 AM

so, in short, are you going to be able to use the hy35 in the bullseye housing if it's got a smaller turbine and a v-band housing clamp?

Morphius · 10-09-2004, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinknuggit

so, in short, are you going to be able to use the hy35 in the bullseye housing if it's got a smaller turbine and a v-band housing clamp?

If you use the pre-2003 HY-35 or HX-35, then they will bolt to the Bullseye housing. The 2003 center cartridge changed. The exhaust housing attaches to the cartridge via a v-band clamp. Pre-2003 use a flange that bolts on. I'm working on getting the pre 2003 HY/HX maps to compare them to the post-2003 turbos.

I'm concerned about crossing the surge line. Granted I don't have the pre-2003 maps yet, but I'd ventrue to say that they are nearly the same as the post-2003 maps. So whether you have a pre-2003 HX/HY or a post-2003 HY, it would appear that with such a small displacment motor, you'll be crossing the surge line alot. Anyone here expeienced anything bad due to the surge limit? I just don't want to put it on and then have it last a very short time.

Personally, I've got some post-2003 HY's, so I'll need to fab up a custom adapter or header to make it work.

Dave, why don't you come up with an adapter that will allow a post-2003 HY to bolt to your casting? Is that possible?

1029TSG · 10-10-2004, 09:39 AM

Well, the design of this housing began in 2001 so it wasn't in the plans. I'm not sure if something like that could be done, but I can certainly have engineering look in to it.

Morphius · 10-11-2004, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1029TSG

........I can certainly have engineering look in to it.

That'd be sweet. I'd be game for purchasing 3 of them.

pneumo · 10-12-2004, 10:57 PM

For the sake of semantics I'd like to point out that nothing bad happens as you cross the surge line. Where you get into trouble is when you try to run a compressor wheel in the area to the left of the surge line. Crossing the line from left to right just means that surging will cease.

A turbo manufacturer can prevent their turbos from running into surge by using a large enough turbine wheel and housing. In other words, don't let the turbo spool up until after the engine flows enough air to get into the right side of the compressor map. From your own reports, the HY/HX spool up around 3500 to 3800 rpm. So why does the blue "engine' line start out at 20 psi and 500 rpm? To be realistic, the blue 'engine' line should start out at zero pressure ratio at 500 rpm, then climb up in pressure at an exponential rate until about 3500-3800 rpm (or more) at 20 psi. I think you'll find this will keep the 'engine' line to the right of the surge line.

For more details see www.Stealth316.com/2-3s-compflowmaps.htm The relevant section starts at "Interpretation", though it mentions one cause of surge earlier up in the page.

Morphius · 10-13-2004, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pneumo

So why does the blue "engine' line start out at 20 psi and 500 rpm? To be realistic, the blue 'engine' line should start out at zero pressure ratio at 500 rpm, then climb up in pressure at an exponential rate until about 3500-3800 rpm (or more) at 20 psi. I think you'll find this will keep the 'engine' line to the right of the surge line.

Why? A very simplistic look at how well the engine maps with this compressor. It's assuming you hit 20 psi @ 500. We can all agree that is not true, but this gives a quick and dirty look at it. If you go to post #4, point 4, I did realize that and made mention of it. I'd concur that the pressure would climb at an exponential rate until the PR is reached and the turbo spools. Exactly how and at what rate, is unknown. It might always be inside the map regardless, but who knows at this time. Maybe it'll spool quick? Until, I install it and take data myself, I guess we really won't know.

Thanks for the feedback. I was wondering if there was anyone else that could see that or had comments/insight.

Is it obvious when it's surging? Noises, etc? I breezed through the 3S page before, but didn't read in full detail everything. I'll go back and touch upon that again.

I can't wait to get this thing on. On the 5.9L diesel, it'll hit 32psi at around 2000rpm and it's dam near instantaneous when you get on it. Very quick spool. (Granted 3 times the displacment.... but...) Obviously, it'll spool slower. It should be a rush doing it a vehicle that weighs 2000+lbs less!!

pinknuggit · 10-13-2004, 11:34 AM

the hx35 isn't a full ball bearing turbo. It's a brass jourlal bearing turbo.

1029TSG · 10-13-2004, 12:06 PM

If there's anyone wanting an HX-35, we have a distributor selling complete Holset HX-35 turbochargers with our housing starting at around $700. You can contact him at jason@digitalhorsepowerinc.com

Morphius · 10-13-2004, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinknuggit

the hx35 isn't a full ball bearing turbo. It's a brass jourlal bearing turbo.

True. Checking the Holset website it specifies that. Edited my thread.

2000max · 10-14-2004, 05:41 PM

Dave I assume you would have to get oil lines fabbed up if I were to run the turbo?

1029TSG · 10-14-2004, 05:46 PM

Actually, the newer version of our oil feed and drain kits will fit both the Garrett and Holset turbos. These will be in stock some time next week, I will put new pictures up when they arrive.

Morphius · 10-15-2004, 11:17 PM

See updated Maps above. Now includes the pre-2003MY in green.

1029TSG · 10-19-2004, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1029TSG

If there's anyone wanting an HX-35, we have a distributor selling complete Holset HX-35 turbochargers with our housing starting at around $700. You can contact him at jason@digitalhorsepowerinc.com

Correction on the email address, please use jasonjeross@comcast.net

pinknuggit · 10-19-2004, 02:02 PM

I just thought I'd throw this in the mix... I had a lengthy conversation with a tech at a local diesel turbo shop, and he told me that the older holset H1C turbos share the same center cartridge and turbine wheel. He said that they are identical to the HX35 on the hotside, and almost on the cold side. He told me that the compressor maps are almost the same, and that the hx35 is a "modern" version of the H1C that is a little bit more efficient on the cold side.
So a Holset H1C is a viable option opposed to the HX35. He told me you could also use any turbo from the H1 series (such as the H1A, H1B). I saw a Brand new H1A turbo on ebay for less than 200$ with no bids. You can find H1C's readily off of first generation cummins rams (shoebox trucks).

1029TSG · 10-19-2004, 02:16 PM

This is great information. Now, I need to know who is going to step up to the plate and make a living at this? Since we dont sell used or remmaned turbochargers this market is wide open. Someone needs to source the CHRA's, open a wholesale account with us for the turbine housings and retail the complete units on a website or eBay. I will be more than happy to support this person in any way to build their business and promote their product. Please email me directly at david@bullseyepower.com

2000max · 10-19-2004, 07:18 PM

Are there any other Holset turbos that could be used with this turbine housing? I'm really looking for something smaller, I just realized the HX-35 is going to be to large for my set-up.

92redman · 10-19-2004, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2000max

Are there any other Holset turbos that could be used with this turbine housing? I'm really looking for something smaller, I just realized the HX-35 is going to be to large for my set-up.

http://www.bullseye-power.com/produc...products_id=35

Hooptytalon · 10-22-2004, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinknuggit

I just thought I'd throw this in the mix... I had a lengthy conversation with a tech at a local diesel turbo shop, and he told me that the older holset H1C turbos share the same center cartridge and turbine wheel. He said that they are identical to the HX35 on the hotside, and almost on the cold side. He told me that the compressor maps are almost the same, and that the hx35 is a "modern" version of the H1C that is a little bit more efficient on the cold side.
So a Holset H1C is a viable option opposed to the HX35. He told me you could also use any turbo from the H1 series (such as the H1A, H1B). I saw a Brand new H1A turbo on ebay for less than 200$ with no bids. You can find H1C's readily off of first generation cummins rams (shoebox trucks).

Problem with the H1c is, the smallest turbine housing you can get for it is a 16cm^2 unless you machine it out for 12cm^2. I know guys have machined out hx40s for the 12cm^2 housing with much performance success and absolutely no longevity whatsoever.