1st Start Up/Tune Question

[spadepro22]

Motor will be installed this week and as far as the tune/break-in goes, will I be safe to zero out v3, set injector deadtime and not wash cylinder walls? Im going to get a tune as soon as the motor is broke in, but what should I do to make sure I don't wash the walls with 1050cc injectors?

 

[snowborder714]

Just set deadtime and global and you'll be good to go. Then during the break-in you can dial in your idle with the BISS screw, deadtime, and lower MAF Comp sliders.

 

[spadepro22]

Just set deadtime and global and you'll be good to go. Then during the break-in you can dial in your idle with the BISS screw, deadtime, and lower MAF Comp sliders.

Using the motoman break-in seems like it will cause it to go rich by getting into boost. I'm I wrong by saying that? I'm very nervous about this break-in.

 

[snowborder714]

I've never broken in a new motor, but yes, if you set everything back to stock, you'll be seeing stock AFR's. Now, how much load you put on the engine and how much boost you run will affect this. It's been a while since I've looked at that break-in method, but I believe that's one where you basically drive it normally after idle break-in, is that correct?

Is this motor completely different than the previous one you had tuned (if you did have it tuned)? If not terribly, you could just leave the old tune on it and go, making sure to watch after you get into boost the first time. I'm not sure what an appropriate AFR would be for breaking in a motor, so hopefully someone who has done it this way can chime in.

 

[spadepro22]

It's been a while since I've looked at that break-in method, but I believe that's one where you basically drive it normally after idle break-in, is that correct?

The motoman method is "The main thing is to load the engine by opening the throttle hard in 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear". With my turbo(bastard 20g) hitting full boost around 35-3800rpms its going to be hard to hit the higher rpm range without going over the 10-12 psi range. Exteranl wastegate has 1.1 spring bar setup also.

Is this motor completely different than the previous one you had tuned (if you did have it tuned)? If not terribly, you could just leave the old tune on it and go, making sure to watch after you get into boost the first time.

My motor is totally different, going from bolt-on to fully built and bigger injectors(old were 750cc). The tune on the old motor was ok, but very rich. It will probably change with 272 kelford cams and 1050cc injectors.

 

[Tyeler18]

Just set the injectors and keep load within the same range as your old tune. If you were running 15lbs on your 20g before, don't go over 15lbs if it's tuned on that prior to the build. Stock AFR's aren't going to wash the cylinders, otherwise the factory wouldn't have any engines out running currently. When I broke mine in, I just left wastegate pressure and beat the hell out of it.

 

[spadepro22]

Just set the injectors and keep load within the same range as your old tune. If you were running 15lbs on your 20g before, don't go over 15lbs if it's tuned on that prior to the build. Stock AFR's aren't going to wash the cylinders, otherwise the factory wouldn't have any engines out running currently. When I broke mine in, I just left wastegate pressure and beat the hell out of it.

I was running 18psi and was seeing that around 3800rpms. Most break-in that I've researched say you want to be around 10-12 psi. The old tune AFR was 10.1 WOT.

 

[Tyeler18]

I broke in on 11psi. Really it doesn't matter, seeing as how "psi" is generic to all turbos. You could break it in at 18psi if you wanted to, it really isn't that big of a deal. Just make sure they get well driven with good amounts of boost. Hell you could run 35psi on a 35r if you had the tune to do it on your break in.

 

[spadepro22]

I broke in on 11psi. Really it doesn't matter, seeing as how "psi" is generic to all turbos.

That makes perfect sense. Really my main goal is not to wash the cylinder walls with the 1050cc injectors. Any thoughts on that before I get side tracked thinking about boost?

 

[Tyeler18]

That makes perfect sense. Really my main goal is not to wash the cylinder walls with the 1050cc injectors. Any thoughts on that before I get side tracked thinking about boost?

As long as you have them close to dialed in correct, AFR's (assuming everything is tight and no boost leaks etc) will be identical to what they were before. 10.1 is not going to wash the cylinder walls by anymeans, but if you're worried about it, just lean your WOT maps out to 10.5 (still richer than I run) and don't worry about it. You're going to need to be down in the 9's AFRs before you'll even begin to wash the cylinders.

 

[spadepro22]

As long as you have them close to dialed in correct, AFR's (assuming everything is tight and no boost leaks etc) will be identical to what they were before.

Wouldn't AFR's change since this is a completely new motor with bigger injectors? And I do understand that even 10.1 still won't wash the cylinder walls if thats a correct statement. So basically I will set global and deadtime for the 1050s and zero out the rest of the old tune and then start up being that my old tune will probably be all to hell anyway?

 

[Calan]

With my turbo(bastard 20g) hitting full boost around 35-3800rpms its going to be hard to hit the higher rpm range without going over the 10-12 psi range.

Nobody says you have to mash the pedal through the floor.

Just get the motor up over 5000rpm and engine brake down to 2500rpms a few times (10 -20 should be fine). Watch the WB while cruising around and doing that ^, and if it gets a little lean or rich, do a quick adjustment with the fuel sliders to get it to something reasonable between 10.3 and 11.0 or so.

The main thing is knock; at any sign of knock, get out of the gas and make a quick adjustment to timing or fuel as needed.

And don't let it idle forever while you try to get it perfectly dialed in. Start it, check oil pressure, do a quick check for any major leaks, and get it to idle as best you can while it's warming up... and then go drive it.

 

[Tyeler18]

Wouldn't AFR's change since this is a completely new motor with bigger injectors? And I do understand that even 10.1 still won't wash the cylinder walls if thats a correct statement. So basically I will set global and deadtime for the 1050s and zero out the rest of the old tune and then start up being that my old tune will probably be all to hell anyway?

Are you running an MAF? The engine is still going to strive for the same AFR's and timing, so as far as timing/fuel maps go it won't effect anything there. Infact it should run just like it did before *for the most part*.

Nobody says you have to mash the pedal through the floor.

Just get the motor up over 5000rpm and engine brake down to 2500rpms a few times (10 -20 should be fine). Watch the WB while cruising around and doing that ^, and if it gets a little lean or rich, do a quick adjustment with the fuel sliders to get it to something reasonable between 10.3 and 11.0 or so.

The main thing is knock; at any sign of knock, get out of the gas and make a quick adjustment to timing or fuel as needed.

And don't let it idle forever while you try to get it perfectly dialed in. Start it, check oil pressure, do a quick check for any major leaks, and get it to idle as best you can while it's warming up... and then go drive it.

As long as your base idle isn't 4k rpm's on start-up like mine was. Should've seen me trying to slow the thing down just cruising around the block with it constantly attempting to accelerate to 4k.

 

[Calan]

As long as your base idle isn't 4k rpm's on start-up like mine was. Should've seen me trying to slow the thing down just cruising around the block with it constantly attempting to accelerate to 4k.

Oh yeah... be sure to go through all the basic stuff (like setting up everything on the throttle body, adjusting the TPS, setting base fuel pressure, etc) before you ever start the engine.

As long as you are in the ball park on global fuel and injector deadtime, the fuel trims should allow you to maintain 14.7:1 AFR while in closed loop. While cruising in closed loop, watch your CombinedFT value; it will give you a hint as to what you need to do with fuel to at least be safe when you drop into open loop. For example, if CombinedFT is high throughout the RPM range in closed loop, go ahead and richen up the global value (closer to 0) to allow some headroom in open loop.

 

[spadepro22]

So when I go up to 5000rpm should I get on the throttle hard to get there(not wot tho)? In the process of going to 5000 rpms what should my afr be around, because the old tune wouldnt drop down to 10.1 until I was wot. On the decel, I should cost right instead of braking?

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

If the CR is the same and only thing changing is internals and cams, why don't you just leave the old injectors in and run your old tune? Just run a straight line from the IM to wastegate to run min boost.

If your old tune was alil rich and you run conservative boost like i said, I don't see what would go wrong during breakin. You don't have to break in with the larger injectors and cams. Break it in with the old stuff then swap it out.

Decel in gear all the way down.

 

[spadepro22]

If the CR is the same and only thing changing is internals and cams, why don't you just leave the old injectors in and run your old tune? Just run a straight line from the IM to wastegate to run min boost.

If your old tune was alil rich and you run conservative boost like i said, I don't see what would go wrong during breakin. You don't have to break in with the larger injectors and cams. Break it in with the old stuff then swap it out.

Decel in gear all the way down.

They motor is a longblock and I'd have to pay labor to the shop to swap parts back and forth. The old tune was crap also. I have a 1.1 spring bar setup which is to run min.15psi I think.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

15 psi is good, you'd be fine with that. Even with the larger cams. Just set the injector deadtime and global like snowboarder said and break it in.

Or If the old tune didn't see knock and your afraid to do the above, leave the old stuff in, break it in, them bring me 50$ and i'll swap your cams and injectors .

Really all we can say is run min boost, have deadtime and global set, and watch for knock and any afr below 10 or above 15.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Figured I'd toss this in, Just for reference to anyone wondering about the moto man method... . Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power

 

[Tyeler18]

So when I go up to 5000rpm should I get on the throttle hard to get there(not wot tho)? In the process of going to 5000 rpms what should my afr be around, because the old tune wouldnt drop down to 10.1 until I was wot. On the decel, I should cost right instead of braking?

FSM states on a factory* engine that 30-60mph pulls at something like 50-70% throttle are what you need to break it in. I personally didn't go WOT, but I was accelerating at upwards of 80% throttle and costing in gear at various speeds. Don't be afraid to get into it once it's fully warmed up. After my first 10 miles I checked compression and they were all over, so I drove it even harder than the previous time and compression started leveling into nice consistent numbers.

 

[spadepro22]

The shop said they usually break in motors by revving them to 2500rpm for 10 minutes before they drive it. I don't like the idea and I'm throwing it out here to see what you guys think. They said they never had a motor failure this way.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

Unfortunately thats what happened to my car. I wish i had more time then to break it in the motoway. I was working two jobs and left it to my dads shop to install. I believe my engine would be stronger and cleaner as well, if i had done it the moto way.

Of course doing it that way they never had one fail. Its the easy way. Moto man explains the reason not to idle break it in. His reasoning is logically sound to me.

A shop won't want break it in the moto way due liability. I believe you should do it the moto way but that's your choice. I knew my next build will be done his way. GL

 

[Calan]

The shop said they usually break in motors by revving them to 2500rpm for 10 minutes before they drive it. I don't like the idea and I'm throwing it out here to see what you guys think.

In case you missed it...

Just get the motor up over 5000rpm and engine brake down to 2500rpms a few times (10 -20 should be fine).

the moto man method... . Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power

 

[spadepro22]

In case you missed it...

I didn't miss it, I'm just throwing it out there as stated. The motoman way is Im leaning, but it doesn't hurt to see what you guys think about this way too.

 

[MY1GDSM]

For the record this is the only way I have ever broke in new motors in cars I've had my hands on. Always do it on Zero mile cars I tune... . Even Remote tunes if the Owner heeds my advice.