LC-1 and DB gauge install

[ishnish]

Hello all, I just got done installing 3 gauges on and got two more left. One of them is the DB gauge for my LC-1 wideband. Checking through the installation methods, I went with:

Narrowband simulation install (DB gauge, Logging, ECMlink v3 setup) [LC-1 sensor placed in front o2 spot]
Red wire – 12v accessory power source (e.g. cigarette lighter or radio)
Blue wire – chassis ground
White wire - ECU sensor ground (pin 92)
Brown – ECU pin 76 (ECU Pinout - http://www.dsmlink.com/images/forums/2GECUPinout.pdf)
Yellow – DB gauge’s white wire
(*Must reprogram Analog Out 1 values to match Analog Out 2 values using LM Config 3.15. Screenshots and software - innovatelc1orlm1install [ECMTuning - wiki])
Black – Calibration push button to monitoring LED to ground
*Note – The brown and yellow wires can be swapped in this scenario.

DB Gauge
White wire – Signal output wire from LC-1 (either brown or yellow – see above for which)
Yellow wire - Non-dimming illumination (e.g. headlight wire)
Red wire - 12v accessory power source (e.g. cigarette lighter or radio)
Black wire - Same ground source as LC-1 blue/white wires

I just don't know where to start. I don't plan on putting in my new o2 sensor until I get another o2 housing. For now, can I still install my wideband and the gauge?

For the white and brown wire, what do I do? It just says pin 92 or 76. I've never messed with pins before. Do I just stick it in the slot or something? I wanna be able to get this and maybe take some pics along the way to help others in need who might not understand it like me. Pictures always help. Also, what do I do with the white wire for the db gauge? It says "Signal output wire from LC-1 (either brown or yellow)". That I don't understand either. Sorry for all the questions, but I want this to be as quick and clean of a job as possible because my first gauge installs (the 3 mentioned in the beginning) were nightmares.

Thanks

[WES_393]

Originally Posted by ishnish

Narrowband simulation install (DB gauge, Logging, ECMlink v3 setup) [LC-1 sensor placed in front o2 spot]
Red wire – 12v accessory power source (e.g. cigarette lighter or radio)
Like it says, tap into any 12v power source so long as it turns off with the car.
Blue wire – chassis ground
Ground this to any clean area of metal in the car. Ring terminals and some sand paper make this much easier and effective.
White wire - ECU sensor ground (pin 92)
I'm not 100% on this (it's just how I did it), but I believe you will want to splice into the wire coming from pin 92, connect the white wire, but still leave the wire intact. Just skin an inch of insulation off the wire, wrap the exposed portion of the white wire around the exposed portion of pin 92's wire, and seal it up. I did it this way with no issues on my UEGO.
Brown – ECU pin 76 (ECU Pinout - http://www.dsmlink.com/images/forums/2GECUPinout.pdf)
Cut the wire to pin 76 completely with a few inches of wire coming from the connector. Then connect the brown wire to the wire coming from pin 76. Your basically going to tell the Link that pin 76 is the wideband signal, not the stock front O2.
Yellow – DB gauge’s white wire
This is going to connect to the white wire of the wideband gauge itself.
(*Must reprogram Analog Out 1 values to match Analog Out 2 values using LM Config 3.15. Screenshots and software - innovatelc1orlm1install [ECMTuning - wiki])
Black – Calibration push button to monitoring LED to ground
This wire will go to the grounded connector for re-calibrating the wideband. The LED is supposed to light up to show the switch is actually grounding the wideband (a bit redundant).
*Note – The brown and yellow wires can be swapped in this scenario.
This is just to confuse you. lol. Don't switch them, just do as the instructions state.

DB Gauge
White wire – Signal output wire from LC-1 (either brown or yellow – see above for which)
Connect this to the yellow wire from the wideband.
Yellow wire - Non-dimming illumination (e.g. headlight wire)
This just means connect it to a 12v power source which is only on when the headlights/parking lights are on.
Red wire - 12v accessory power source (e.g. cigarette lighter or radio)
Again, any 12v source that is switched off with the car.
Black wire - Same ground source as LC-1 blue/white wires
Grounded to the same point that the blue wire is grounded.

Unfortunately I've never actually installed a Innovate wideband or successfully ran narrowband simulation, so I can't help much with the programming. However, I will suggest that you think about getting a bung welded into the downpipe so you can retain the stock front O2. Then you would just splice the brown wire into pin 75 instead of 76 (wiring up the rest of the wires exactly the same), tell Link to read the rear O2 as the wideband, and then you can log the wideband while letting letting the front O2 and ECU take care of fuel trims. Any muffler shop would be able to do this for very cheap, I've heard of some getting it done for as cheap as $20 to cut the hole and weld in the bung. But that's just an option.

Also, one of these would make your life much easier and ensure the connections are much more sound than with the old twist-and-tape method. They even seller cheaper versions without the electricians pliers if you already have them

Dorman Conduct-Tite! 85691 - Kit Term 101 Pc Crim | O'Reilly Auto Parts

[boost97gst]

The "LC-1 signal ouput wire(brown or yellow) is referring to the brown or yellow wire coming out of the black box thats going to be in your engine bay. The one the actual o2 sensor plugs into. THATs the "actual LC-1. The "DB guage" is simply the guage.
I also agree with wes, ive heard this from plenty of other wisemen, it IS best to use stock front o2 then weld in a bung. Oh, and its a hell of alot easier to remove btw. Mine is setup for NB install exactly per the link you copied and i will probably be going back to stock nb and bung in the enar future.

[snowborder714]

Wes nailed it on the head. For the white wire, he was correct in that you just want to tap into the current wire and not cut it. You can either strip back and inch or two of shielding from the middle of the wire and then solder the new wire on or use a crimp on wire tap if you don't want to solder.

It sounds like most of what you don't understand is just how to connect to the ECU. Just study the ECU pinout I linked in that tech article and double or triple check that you're cutting/tapping into the correct wire.

[c2ypt1c]

Originally Posted by boost97gst

it IS best to use stock front o2 then weld in a bung.

It's debatable. Some say the rear o2. Some say the front o2. The wizards at ecmtuning say front:

"By FAR, the best place to install the WBO2 sensor for accurate narrowband simulation is in the front O2 sensor location."

Straight from the horse's mouth...

[snowborder714]

Originally Posted by c2ypt1c

"By FAR, the best place to install the WBO2 sensor for accurate narrowband simulation is in the front O2 sensor location."

This has nothing to do with running a stock front o2 vs. doing narrowband sim. This is simply stating if you're going to do narrowband sim, install the sensor in the front o2 spot (vs. a bung further back in the exhaust system).

[c2ypt1c]

Originally Posted by snowborder714

This has nothing to do with running a stock front o2 or doing narrowband sim. This is simply stating if you're going to do narrowband sim, install the sensor in the front o2 spot (vs. a bung further back in the exhaust system).

Yeah I just realized that while re-reading the quote (just woke up lol).

Are there really ANY advantages to put it in the front o2 (with nb sim), as opposed to rear o2 (without nb sim)?

[ishnish]

Originally Posted by WES_393

Unfortunately I've never actually installed a Innovate wideband or successfully ran narrowband simulation, so I can't help much with the programming. However, I will suggest that you think about getting a bung welded into the downpipe so you can retain the stock front O2. Then you would just splice the brown wire into pin 75 instead of 76 (wiring up the rest of the wires exactly the same), tell Link to read the rear O2 as the wideband, and then you can log the wideband while letting letting the front O2 and ECU take care of fuel trims. Any muffler shop would be able to do this for very cheap, I've heard of some getting it done for as cheap as $20 to cut the hole and weld in the bung. But that's just an option.

Also, one of these would make your life much easier and ensure the connections are much more sound than with the old twist-and-tape method. They even seller cheaper versions without the electricians pliers if you already have them

Dorman Conduct-Tite! 85691 - Kit Term 101 Pc Crim | O'Reilly Auto Parts

Wow I've come back to some awesome feedback. Thanks WES! Honestly, I was just gonna do the narrowband simulation because I thought this would be the best option and most accurate as well. Also, I plan to solder my wires but thank you for the suggestion!

Originally Posted by snowborder714

Wes nailed it on the head. For the white wire, he was correct in that you just want to tap into the current wire and not cut it. You can either strip back and inch or two of shielding from the middle of the wire and then solder the new wire on or use a crimp on wire tap if you don't want to solder.

It sounds like most of what you don't understand is just how to connect to the ECU. Just study the ECU pinout I linked in that tech article and double or triple check that you're cutting/tapping into the correct wire.

Correct, most of the confusion came from connecting it to the ECU. I thought the pins were empty spots in which I just put in the new wires but I didn't know how. Now I know I just need to tap into them which isn't that bad. Will quadruple check though

[snowborder714]

Originally Posted by c2ypt1c

Are there really ANY advantages to put it in the front o2 (with nb sim), as opposed to rear o2 (without nb sim)?

Another available input is the main reason (2g only).

[ishnish]

Originally Posted by snowborder714

This has nothing to do with running a stock front o2 vs. doing narrowband sim. This is simply stating if you're going to do narrowband sim, install the sensor in the front o2 spot (vs. a bung further back in the exhaust system).

Originally Posted by c2ypt1c

Yeah I just realized that while re-reading the quote (just woke up lol).

Are there really ANY advantages to put it in the front o2 (with nb sim), as opposed to rear o2 (without nb sim)?

I know that the man himself said the best way to run narrowband simulation (not the best way PERIOD) is to put it in the front o2. However, he did also state that he has been running the WB sensor in the front o2 location for years. Just so ya' know..

Oh and one other question: So would it be okay to install all of this without installing my new o2 sensor for WB?

[c2ypt1c]

Originally Posted by snowborder714

Another available input is the main reason (2g only).

It Just seems like the info in the ecmtuning wiki points to a front o2 install. I was thinking that perhaps it's balancing act between (more) accurate afrs vs sensor longevity and possibly better closed loop functionality. Anyway, seems like the general consensus is that the rear o2 spot is superior, if running a narrowband. Which is what boost97gst was saying before I jumped in

[ishnish]

Originally Posted by c2ypt1c

It Just seems like the info in the ecmtuning wiki points to a front o2 install. I was thinking that perhaps it's balancing act between (more) accurate afrs vs sensor longevity and possibly better closed loop functionality. Anyway, seems like the general consensus is that the rear o2 spot is superior. Which is what boost97gst was saying before I jumped in

"There's a rumor running around that WB sensors are not designed to take the heat that close to the engine. I honestly don't know if there's some truth to that or not, but it seems strange to me and doesn't jive with our empirical results. I've run the WB sensor in the front O2 location on my own car for years and have had no problems, even after putting it through a LOT of hard (and HOT) road course miles."

[snowborder714]

Originally Posted by c2ypt1c

It Just seems like the info in the ecmtuning wiki points to a front o2 install. I was thinking that perhaps it's balancing act between (more) accurate afrs vs sensor longevity and possibly better closed loop functionality. Anyway, seems like the general consensus is that the rear o2 spot is superior, if running a narrowband. Which is what boost97gst was saying before I jumped in

The other issue with putting the wideband further back is you can possibly encounter leaks before it which will throw off the reading (e.g. leaky downpipe flex section). So the front o2 is just an easy way to get out of installing a new bung before the flex section while keeping the exhaust system as leak free before it as possible.

[c2ypt1c]

Well, here's an advantage of front o2 placement:
"The problem is that the sensor responds more slowly to ECU mixture changes the further away from the engine it's placed. As a result, the ECU makes adjustments to the A/F mixture too quickly and “overshoots”, running really lean for a few seconds, then really rich, then lean, etc. "

So for front o2 (w/ nbsim) we have: quicker sensor response + bung convenience + exhuast leak insurance
and for new bung further down (w/o nbsim): sensor life (myth?) + better closed loop?

[ishnish]

That I'm not too sure of. I still need my other question answered as well lol:

So would it be okay to install all of this without installing my new o2 sensor for WB?

[snowborder714]

Installing all of what?

[c2ypt1c]

Originally Posted by ishnish

That I'm not too sure of.

What I listed out are facts

I still need my other question answered as well lol:

yeah, sorry for the semi-thread-jack man...

I don't plan on putting in my new o2 sensor until I get another o2 housing. For now, can I still install my wideband and the gauge?

So would it be okay to install all of this without installing my new o2 sensor for WB?

I think you're implying that you currently have a narrow band, but plan for a new one and you want to install the wb in a new bung...

[ishnish]

No need to apologize buddy. Answered some of my questions anyway lol.

Sorry I should have been more clear. In my first post, I stated that I want to install my wideband and gauge. However I didn't want to install my wideband o2 sensor right now. Not until I get my new o2 housing. So what I'm asking is if it's okay to install everything else as of now. I figured MAYBE it would be until I found out I have to tap into pins from the ECU. But would it be okay?

[snowborder714]

Yes, there are no issues installing the wideband controller without the sensor. Just don't install the sensor and start your car without having it hooked up to the controller. This will damage the sensor.

[ishnish]

Okay thank you. I don't plan on installing the sensor at all right now until my o2 housing so it'll just be using the stock o2 sensor. The thing is, if I cut the wire to pin 76 and tap it with the brown wire from the LC-1 to trick the ECU into thinking the front is a wideband signal instead of the stock front o2, wouldn't that make my stock o2 useless?

[snowborder714]

Yes, so either don't tap in now or splice it in to keep the stock one still there.

[Calan]

Originally Posted by snowborder714

Yes, so either don't tap in now or splice it in to keep the stock one still there.

I don't think I would even splice it. Without a working sensor hooked up, I would be a bit worried about a possible impedance mismatch between the floating output of the wideband controller and the ECU input. I believe the ECU inputs are high impedance and it probably won't matter...but it just doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

I'm a bit confused though. Why are you wanting to install part of the wideband setup now, before you have everything ready to go? Why not just install it all at the same time?

[ishnish]

Originally Posted by Calan

I don't think I would even splice it. Without a working sensor hooked up, I would be a bit worried about a possible impedance mismatch between the floating output of the wideband controller and the ECU input. I believe the ECU inputs are high impedance and it probably won't matter...but it just doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

I'm a bit confused though. Why are you wanting to install part of the wideband setup now, before you have everything ready to go? Why not just install it all at the same time?

I'm gonna leave that first part to snowborder to answer cause I have no clue lol.

As for the installation question, it's because I hate and dread installing gauges so I just want to get it over with. I don't wanna install half my gauges and leave the other half sitting. It would be too much work to install a dual gauge pod with one gauge (and would look stupid) and then removing it later to install the next. Plus, screwing and unscrewing plastic is annoying due to the amount of breaking over time.

[ishnish]

Hey guys so I finally got done installing all my gauges (yessssss!!) but ran into something interesting. My sideband gauge just blinks 7.4 the whole time. I'm not sure if it's even correct though cause I didn't install my new sideband o2 sensor (like I said I wouldn't). If that's the case, then I can feel relieved in knowing that's the only reason as to why it's displaying 7.4..

Also, I did not connect the brown wire from the LC-1 at all yet because like stated earlier, the sideband o2 sensor still hasn't been installed. Is this normal for now or is there still a problem?

I also did not use the black wire from the LC-1 as well. All in all, the brown and black wires have been left alone. Do I NEED to have the black wire done? I really don't know what to do with it..

[WES_393]

With no sensor to read, I wouldn't be surprised if the gauge is acting strange. The black wire goes to a push button switch. The switch can then just be grounded to the chassis. The whole point to the switch is to reset the wideband. It's an important feature since it keeps the wideband accurate. You don't want to hook up the brown wire to the ECU until you are totally ready to set up the narrowband sim in Link. Cutting that signal wire without giving the ECU a new signal to read would have very bad results.

[ishnish]

Okay well I installed the switch today just now got done. When I turn on my gauge, it still reads 7.4, which I'm sure is normal for now being that I didn't install my sensor yet. But also, my led light stays blinking. When I hold it down, it turns off until I let go, at which point it starts to blink again. Is this normal?

I figured since I didn't install my new wideband sensor yet, that maybe it is normal.