High knock but good timing.

[DJ23GSX]

I made a 3rd gear pull today at 15psi. This is my log. It was 85* outside and pretty humid.


Time RPM Kock timing inj p/w duty cycle
1.16 4500.0 0.0 28.0 10.0 37.5
1.3 4531.0 0.0 23.0 12.82 48.41
1.42 4531.0 4.0 20.0 14.61 55.16
1.55 4469.0 4.0 18.0 15.38 57.28
1.68 4688.0 4.0 20.0 13.85 54.11
1.8 4688.0 4.0 20.0 13.33 52.08
1.94 4844.0 4.0 20.0 13.08 52.8
2.07 4875.0 3.0 20.0 13.08 53.14
2.18 4969.0 4.0 20.0 13.33 55.2
2.27 4969.0 4.0 20.0 13.08 54.16
2.41 5031.0 4.0 20.0 13.59 56.98
2.54 4969.0 4.0 20.0 13.59 56.27
2.67 5188.0 3.0 22.0 13.59 58.75
2.78 5156.0 3.0 22.0 13.59 58.39
2.91 5281.0 3.0 21.0 13.59 59.81
3.03 5219.0 3.0 22.0 13.59 59.11
3.14 5469.0 3.0 22.0 13.59 61.94
3.26 5313.0 2.0 24.0 13.33 59.02
3.38 5531.0 2.0 24.0 13.33 61.44
3.5 5594.0 2.0 23.0 13.33 62.14
3.6 5594.0 10.0 21.0 13.59 63.35
3.75 5531.0 10.0 21.0 13.33 61.44
3.9 5594.0 14.0 21.0 13.59 63.35
4.03 5781.0 14.0 21.0 13.59 65.47
4.17 5750.0 21.0 18.0 13.59 65.12
4.28 5938.0 21.0 18.0 13.59 67.25
4.39 5719.0 21.0 19.0 13.59 64.77
4.52 6000.0 21.0 18.0 13.59 67.95
4.66 5938.0 21.0 18.0 13.59 67.25
4.77 6000.0 21.0 18.0 13.33 66.65
4.91 6188.0 21.0 18.0 13.59 70.08
5.05 6219.0 20.0 20.0 13.33 69.08
5.19 6125.0 20.0 18.0 13.08 66.76

First thing i noticed is my egt's barely reached 1600* and the car pulled nice and smooth. My base timing is 5* btdc with only one tiny boost leak. I'm running a ported s16g 650's fmic safc 2g maf rewired walbro 255 afpr @ 42psi bfp 3" turbo back, ported head, intake and 2g mani and o2 housing. My knock sensor and o2 sensors are brand new. I am pretty happy with the timing and the way the car pulls so far at only 15psi but all this knock kinda worries me. I've just read through quite a few threads about ignoring knock and the overly sensitive 1g knock sensors but i'm still a bit uneasy on the idea. I'd like some input before i up the boost and tune some more.

 

[JayRolla]

Timing is actually really high. I would like to see a log from 2500rpm WOT all the way to 7000rpm. When boost hits you want to be around 14-16* and slowly climb to 21*. Your log is showing a lot of timing when boost hits and even with all the knock its only being pulled to 18*

Your issue is the 650's most likely causing you to be in the low timing map. Thats the issues the safc causes. Or you may be running a little lean, have you added an fuel where it knocks? I would get a wbo2, and that would take a way alot of the guessing.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

I'm in the same boat you are. I have pretty much the same exact mods except I have a 190 pump with a NT FPR instead of the 255 and a AFPR. Anyways, I am getting some knock also and it's due to the timing you get when you put 650's in and try to correct for them. I have been trying to tune it without a WBO2 for a while now and it's either way too rich creating rich knock or it's close but too much timing creating knock. So, I ordered an AEM WBO2 and I'm going to try and get the AFR to about a 11.0-11.5 to see if that helps. Then if I still see knock I'm going to retard the base timing from 5* BTDC to about 3*BTDC. That way when you are seeing 24* timing it will really be 22* and should be closer to where you're needing to be.

BTW just for comparison what are your HI and LO settings. I just want to compare and see where you're and how close our setups are.

My settings:
LO: -13 at Idle and then it goes up to -9 on across.
HI: -13 at lower RPM goes to -9 till 4400 then up to -8

FUEL TRIMS:
LOW: 100
MID: 106
HIGH: 88

It definitely looks like I need to lean it out on the HIGH end but if I do I just get more knock. I'm going to wait till I get the WBO2 to get the HIGH fuel trim in check.

Also what is your O2V looking like on that pull? I know it's not accurate but on my car this is how I look at it: .94-96 (Rich) .90-92 (Close) .88-.90 (My Sweet Spot) .88-Leaner (Too lean for my car). A narrowband is not accurate by any means but with the other info you gave that helps us determine if you are too lean or too rich. Won't tell you exactly what though.

 

[DJ23GSX]

I'm in the same boat you are. I have pretty much the same exact mods except I have a 190 pump with a NT FPR instead of the 255 and a AFPR. Anyways, I am getting some knock also and it's due to the timing you get when you put 650's in and try to correct for them. I have been trying to tune it without a WBO2 for a while now and it's either way too rich creating rich knock or it's close but too much timing creating knock. So, I ordered an AEM WBO2 and I'm going to try and get the AFR to about a 11.0-11.5 to see if that helps. Then if I still see knock I'm going to retard the base timing from 5* BTDC to about 3*BTDC. That way when you are seeing 24* timing it will really be 22* and should be closer to where you're needing to be.

BTW just for comparison what are your HI and LO settings. I just want to compare and see where you're and how close our setups are.

My settings:
LO: -13 at Idle and then it goes up to -9 on across.
HI: -13 at lower RPM goes to -9 till 4400 then up to -8

FUEL TRIMS:
LOW: 100
MID: 106
HIGH: 88

It definitely looks like I need to lean it out on the HIGH end but if I do I just get more knock. I'm going to wait till I get the WBO2 to get the HIGH fuel trim in check.

Also what is your O2V looking like on that pull? I know it's not accurate but on my car this is how I look at it: .94-96 (Rich) .90-92 (Close) .88-.90 (My Sweet Spot) .88-Leaner (Too lean for my car). A narrowband is not accurate by any means but with the other info you gave that helps us determine if you are too lean or too rich. Won't tell you exactly what though.

My hi settings are almost dead on with yours. My lo settings are +15 at 1000 and zero for the rest. My low fuel trim bounces from 100-105 and my mid is 103 and hi is 100. I don't have many miles on the ecu reset so i am sure my mid and hi fuel trims will change and need adjusting. I logged o2's on the next run (didn't save it) and was seeing in the mid to low .7 volts. Its a 90 and i've read 90's o2's/ecu reads o2 volts bit leaner than later 1g's. I've noticed in the past that my o2's barely move at wot even when i add a ton of fuel so i know thats not very accurate.

What are you running for boost?

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

I'm running around 18PSI. I was having boost creep issues so I plugged up the exhaust with my silencer and that has kept the boost creep down. So now I don't have to worry about running 18psi that creeps to 23-24 by redline. It's really hard to tune a creeping car.

 

[DJ23GSX]

I plugged up the exhaust with my silencer and that has kept the boost creep down.

Thats funny. I happen to have the silencer in my car as well. I'm in the process of getting an inspection sticker though not boost creep. I don't like boosting too hard with it in though as i've been through a few exhaust gaskets when i've run it for long periods of time i'd guess its due to the extra back pressure it creates.


I think i might try and up the boost a few psi and richen up the safc and see where my timing/knock go. I am pretty sure my knock is timing related.

 

[JayRolla]

I also had this issue with the safc. I went to 550's to help but I ran out of injector due to boost creep. I decided instead of buying dsmlink that I could just get a maf-t, 1200cc injectors and started tuning with e85. Im running 0* base timing, 30+psi with just the safc and seeing 22* at redline. E85 loves boost and timing. Fixed the woes of the safc timing issues.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

I have been wanting to do E-85 for a while now. But the cost to swap over to it for me is not worth it at this point. My buddy currently is running an 18g with 950's, MAF-T Gen 2, 255, AFPR, with E-85.

This is the cost break down I have done:
255lph: $100
AFPR: $195
Feed Line: $65
950cc Injectors: $275
-6 AN Tank to Filter line (Optional): $120

Total: $755
or
DSMLink: $515
It's not that I don't want to use E85 but do you know how long it would take to recoup that money it costs to convert? When you use 30% more of a fuel that costs about 30% less. It's a wash. I would much rather invest in DSMLink and be able to control my timing and not need to run E85. I'm basically saying it's going to come down to spending a few $$$$ to get control of our knock problem either way we go.

 

[DJ23GSX]

I came across a 90 eprom i might pick up and have a chip burnt for the 650's. That should keep the timing in check.

I think i might take a tuning ride later i'll post my logs if i do.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

A chip would be good. I have an EPROM in mine also. Let's see those logs when you get them.

 

[DJ23GSX]

Here is a 3rd gear pull at 17psi. I did nothing but pull out the silencer from the muffler and changed my safc settings. My hi settings were -5 across the board

Time RPM Knock Timing P/W Duty cycle
0.99 3875.0 0.0 25.0 11.03 35.62
1.09 3969.0 0.0 23.0 12.05 39.86
1.2 4000.0 0.0 21.0 13.33 44.43
1.28 4000.0 0.0 20.0 14.61 48.7
1.38 3906.0 0.0 19.0 15.13 49.25
1.48 4000.0 0.0 19.0 14.61 48.7
1.57 4156.0 0.0 20.0 14.1 48.83
1.68 4250.0 0.0 18.0 14.1 49.94
1.77 4125.0 5.0 19.0 13.85 47.61
1.88 4344.0 5.0 19.0 13.59 49.2
1.96 4406.0 5.0 19.0 13.85 50.85
2.05 4281.0 5.0 19.0 14.1 50.3
2.15 4438.0 5.0 19.0 13.85 51.22
2.26 4531.0 4.0 20.0 14.1 53.24
2.35 4531.0 4.0 20.0 14.1 53.24
2.41 4531.0 4.0 20.0 14.1 53.24
2.49 4563.0 4.0 20.0 14.36 54.6
2.58 4656.0 4.0 20.0 14.61 56.69
2.68 4688.0 4.0 20.0 14.36 56.1
2.78 4750.0 4.0 20.0 14.61 57.83
2.87 4750.0 3.0 19.0 14.61 57.83
2.97 4781.0 3.0 19.0 14.61 58.21
3.07 4969.0 3.0 19.0 14.87 61.57
3.14 4969.0 3.0 19.0 14.61 60.5
3.23 4969.0 3.0 19.0 14.87 61.57
3.32 5094.0 3.0 19.0 14.87 63.12
3.41 5063.0 2.0 20.0 14.87 62.74
3.51 5125.0 2.0 19.0 14.87 63.51
3.6 5156.0 2.0 20.0 14.87 63.89
3.69 5281.0 2.0 21.0 14.87 65.44
3.78 5156.0 2.0 21.0 14.87 63.89
3.88 5375.0 2.0 20.0 14.87 66.61
3.98 5281.0 2.0 21.0 14.87 65.44
4.08 5313.0 2.0 23.0 14.61 64.69
4.18 5375.0 2.0 23.0 14.61 65.44
4.25 5375.0 2.0 22.0 14.61 65.44
4.33 5656.0 2.0 22.0 14.61 68.86
4.42 5438.0 2.0 23.0 14.61 66.21
4.52 5531.0 2.0 23.0 14.61 67.34
4.6 5688.0 1.0 23.0 14.61 69.25
4.69 5719.0 1.0 24.0 14.36 68.44
4.8 5594.0 1.0 24.0 14.61 68.11
4.91 5813.0 8.0 21.0 14.36 69.56
5.01 5844.0 8.0 22.0 14.36 69.93
5.11 5906.0 8.0 22.0 14.61 71.91
5.21 5969.0 14.0 20.0 14.61 72.67
5.3 5938.0 14.0 20.0 14.61 72.3
5.4 5906.0 14.0 20.0 14.61 71.91
5.5 6031.0 14.0 19.0 14.87 74.73
5.6 6188.0 14.0 20.0 14.87 76.68
5.7 6031.0 14.0 20.0 14.87 74.73
5.8 6219.0 14.0 19.0 14.87 77.06
5.9 6094.0 16.0 18.0 14.87 75.51
6.0 6188.0 16.0 18.0 14.61 75.34
6.1 6375.0 16.0 17.0 14.61 77.62
6.21 6250.0 16.0 16.0 14.61 76.09
6.3 6250.0 23.0 16.0 14.87 77.45
6.39 6500.0 23.0 14.0 14.87 80.55
6.5 6531.0 22.0 16.0 14.61 79.51
6.61 6469.0 22.0 15.0 14.61 78.76
6.71 6438.0 22.0 15.0 14.61 78.38


My next pull i moved my safc hi settings to -4% from 3-5k and -3% at 6&7k

Time Rpm Knock Timing P/W Duty cycle
1.4 3594.0 0.0 23.0 11.28 33.78
1.49 3688.0 0.0 22.0 12.05 37.03
1.58 3656.0 0.0 21.0 12.82 39.06
1.68 3875.0 0.0 21.0 13.59 43.88
1.78 3813.0 0.0 21.0 12.82 40.74
1.86 3813.0 4.0 20.0 12.31 39.12
1.96 4031.0 4.0 20.0 11.54 38.76
2.05 3875.0 4.0 21.0 11.54 37.26
2.14 4094.0 4.0 22.0 11.79 40.22
2.24 4063.0 4.0 21.0 11.79 39.92
2.34 4063.0 4.0 22.0 11.79 39.92
2.43 4125.0 3.0 22.0 12.31 42.32
2.54 4219.0 3.0 21.0 12.82 45.07
2.65 4344.0 3.0 21.0 13.08 47.35
2.74 4344.0 3.0 20.0 13.59 49.2
2.84 4438.0 3.0 20.0 13.85 51.22
2.94 4500.0 3.0 20.0 14.1 52.88
3.04 4469.0 2.0 20.0 14.36 53.48
3.14 4594.0 2.0 20.0 14.36 54.97
3.25 4625.0 2.0 20.0 13.85 53.38
3.35 4688.0 2.0 20.0 13.85 54.11
3.45 4750.0 2.0 20.0 13.59 53.79
3.54 4750.0 2.0 21.0 13.33 52.76
3.63 4781.0 1.0 21.0 13.59 54.14
3.74 4875.0 1.0 21.0 13.33 54.15
3.83 4906.0 1.0 21.0 13.33 54.5
3.91 4938.0 1.0 21.0 13.33 54.85
4.02 4906.0 1.0 21.0 13.33 54.5
4.11 5094.0 1.0 21.0 13.59 57.69
4.22 5094.0 0.0 21.0 13.59 57.69
4.32 5031.0 0.0 22.0 13.85 58.07
4.42 5250.0 0.0 22.0 13.85 60.59
4.52 5063.0 0.0 23.0 14.1 59.49
4.62 5125.0 0.0 22.0 14.1 60.22
4.71 5375.0 0.0 23.0 14.1 63.16
4.8 5250.0 0.0 24.0 14.1 61.69
4.91 5344.0 0.0 22.0 14.36 63.95
4.99 5344.0 0.0 23.0 14.1 62.79
5.09 5469.0 4.0 22.0 14.36 65.45
5.18 5563.0 4.0 22.0 14.36 66.57
5.27 5625.0 4.0 22.0 14.1 66.09
5.38 5438.0 3.0 23.0 14.36 65.07
5.46 5563.0 3.0 23.0 14.36 66.57
5.57 5719.0 3.0 24.0 14.61 69.63
5.67 5656.0 3.0 23.0 14.61 68.86
5.77 5844.0 4.0 23.0 14.36 69.93
5.86 5844.0 11.0 21.0 14.61 71.15
5.95 5844.0 10.0 21.0 14.36 69.93
6.03 5844.0 10.0 21.0 14.61 71.15
6.11 5969.0 10.0 21.0 14.61 72.67
6.2 5813.0 10.0 21.0 14.61 70.77
6.29 5938.0 10.0 21.0 14.61 72.3
6.39 6156.0 10.0 20.0 14.87 76.28
6.49 5938.0 10.0 21.0 14.87 73.58
6.59 6125.0 9.0 21.0 14.61 74.57
6.68 6094.0 9.0 21.0 14.87 75.51
6.77 6281.0 9.0 21.0 14.87 77.83
6.86 6188.0 9.0 21.0 14.87 76.68
6.96 6219.0 13.0 18.0 14.87 77.06
7.06 6406.0 13.0 18.0 14.87 79.38
7.13 6406.0 13.0 20.0 15.13 80.77
7.23 6375.0 12.0 17.0 14.87 79.0
7.34 6344.0 12.0 17.0 14.61 77.24
7.44 6469.0 12.0 18.0 14.87 80.16
7.54 6438.0 12.0 18.0 14.61 78.38
7.64 6375.0 12.0 18.0 14.61 77.62


Both of these pulls were made at 80* outside temp and i made a few 3rd gear runs on the way home with outside temps in the low 70's and i saw 0 knock without touching anything on the safc.