I was going to try and set the 1g CAS to 5* before starting the motor.

[Spoolin98]

Well I have been trying to find an answer to this for awhile now and no one seems to be able to help me, so Im resulting to calling out the wisemen.

Heres a link to the build so you can see where Im at and what Im talking about
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260127

Im about ready to fire up my motor for the first time but Im having a problem.
I was going to try and set the 1g CAS to 5* before starting the motor. When I opened up my timing in my datalogger it said my timing was 61*??? No matter how I turned the CAS, it always said 61*. Is this because Im trying to adjust a 1g CAS with a 2g datalogger/program? I should be able to read my 1g CAS with my 2g datalogging program since Im actually reading the ECU and the ECU is reading the CAS.

I went to the garage today and played with a few things. I put a 1g CAS off my buddies car which I KNOW works onto my car, still reads 61*. I also realized that I think I had the crank sensor end of the plug and play harness plugged into the wrong place. I think I had it plugged into the A/C plug. So I switched it into the plug that had a red, blue and black wire coming out of it, like the one in the diagram posted (courtesy of RRE). When I switched the plugs, and turned the CAS, it seemed to trigger some sort of relay. I could hear it turning on and off both inside and outside the car. Is it supposed to do this? Im so lost! I also noticed I had fuel pressure, maybe the relay I was turning on is the fuel pump? Hearing that noise is making me think I have the crank plug of the plug and play harness plugged into the wrong plug on the cars harness. I provided pictures of how I have it hooked up currently, not how I used to have it hooked up. Both ways give me 61*, one of them turns a relay on and off, which is the way I have it hooked up in the picture. And the way the diagram tells you to hook the harness up.

Also, with power on, if I disconnect the plug to the CAS it makes my logger read 5* timing, then I plug it back in and it stays at 5* and doesnt move even if I move the CAS.

What am I doing wrong here? Is reading 61* with the motor off, no timing belt, normal?
Can I only read the correct timing with the motor on? I really need to figure this out before friday, thats when Im doing the belt and attempting to start it.

Thanks in advance for your help...

 

[Spoolin98]

Here is a picture of the plug I had the plug and play harness originally plugged into. The one I now believe to be for the A/C.

 

[absolute_DSM]

Assuming you have everything wired and plugged in correctly, I would suggest priming the oil pump, install the timing components and accesories, setting your CAS at 0* and go ahead and start the car.

Remember it needs to be warmed up to set the timing. Then set it to 5* and set your idle.

Heres how Dan (project_tsi) did it back in the day - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=50335597&postcount=119

Good luck.

 

[Spoolin98]

Im not sure if your understanding what Im saying, I cant set the CAS because its only reading 61*. No matter which way I turn it, it doesnt change...

 

[SpeedAddict62]

IIRC, the ECU never really knows what the timing is, it just assumes that the base timing is set to 5 degrees advance. So what you are looking at on the datalogger is the total advance, not the base timing. The base timing must be set with a timing light when the engine is fully warm, the idle is set and the timing adjustment plug is grounded. I suggest you do what absolute_DSM said. I don't see how a reading when the engine isn't running is valid anyway.

 

[Spoolin98]

How do I set the CAS at 0*?

But my whole point is that with the logger connected, if I turn the CAS, the logger doesnt read anything but 61*.

 

[Big Woo]

I think you will need to at the very least be rotating the engine to get a reading.
The CAS (cam angle sensor) is either a hall effect or a optical type (depending on which one you have) position sensor. Which means that either through magnetics (hall effect) or light (optical) a signal is detected specific to the rotational position of the engine. This signal with an RPM signal can infer timing in degrees.

 

[Spoolin98]

Thanks Big Woo, I understand that.

Let me change my question.

What should I do to the CAS before starting my motor for the first time? absolute_DSM suggested setting the CAS to 0*, is this correct? If so, how do I go about doing this? Esp. since my datalogger isnt reading anything but 61*.

 

[Big Woo]

What I generally do at start up is set the CAS to an intermeadate position within its total travel (rotation). Most often I also have my timing light ready to go before start up, so that once started the timing can be set rite away. Over the years I have found that the end placement of the CAS to achieve 5 or 10 degrees of base ignition advance is biased in one direction. This is not superising since one would think "0" would be the mid way point in the CAS's available travel.

With all that being said I generally bias my initial CAS placement a little clockwise from the neutral position. (when the CAS is viewed from the passerger side front fender).

 

[bling5tatus]

Just put the cas in the middle and start the motor. Trying to set to 5 degrees btdc with the motor off and not warm is not only impossible to do, but it also is completely ridiculous to even attempt to do. The car NEEDS to be warmed up AND running. You cannot set your base timing with the car off, sorry.

Also, if there is some problem with your cas (like you're saying it's giving a jacked reading for your timing with the motor off) your car will probably not start at all. There is no way to read the base timing of a motor that is not moving... or if there is you probably have to be an engineer and work for mitsu and be able to eye ball it (highly highly doubtful).

But yeah, bottom line, don't try to set your timing before you start the motor.

 

[Spoolin98]

What I generally do at start up is set the CAS to an intermeadate position within its total travel (rotation). Most often I also have my timing light ready to go before start up, so that once started the timing can be set rite away. Over the years I have found that the end placement of the CAS to achieve 5 or 10 degrees of base ignition advance is biased in one direction. This is not superising since one would think "0" would be the mid way point in the CAS's available travel.

With all that being said I generally bias my initial CAS placement a little clockwise from the neutral position. (when the CAS is viewed from the passerger side front fender).

Well see the problem with that is, according to JAM's break in procedure, im not suppose to allow the motor to idle at all on the initial start up. So I cant set the base timing right away...

So what your tellin me to do is...
Viewing from the passanger side, put the CAS right in the mid way point, and then turn it slightly to the right?

If I put it directly in the middle, what degree would that be?

 

[Spoolin98]

Just put the cas in the middle and start the motor. Trying to set to 5 degrees btdc with the motor off and not warm is not only impossible to do, but it also is completely ridiculous to even attempt to do. The car NEEDS to be warmed up AND running. You cannot set your base timing with the car off, sorry.

Also, if there is some problem with your cas (like you're saying it's giving a jacked reading for your timing with the motor off) your car will probably not start at all. There is no way to read the base timing of a motor that is not moving... or if there is you probably have to be an engineer and work for mitsu and be able to eye ball it (highly highly doubtful).

But yeah, bottom line, don't try to set your timing before you start the motor.

Im not trying to set it, im trying to get it AROUND the correct setting.

I just went outside and datalogged my 1g with the car OFF and the timing said 5*. That is what I was trying to do with my 2g, but it says 61*.

 

[bling5tatus]

Man... you're splitting hairs here. Put it in the middle and start the car, warm it up, set the base timing, then the idle... You will not know what the base timing is until you get a timing light on the crank pully/timing marks on the timing cover.

 

[Spoolin98]

Man... you're splitting hairs here. Put it in the middle and start the car, warm it up, set the base timing, then the idle... You will not know what the base timing is until you get a timing light on the crank pully/timing marks on the timing cover.

thats what im gonna do, thanks. But, like i said, according to JAM im not supposed to let it idle at start up. They say I have to vary rpms from 2500-3500 for 20 mins, then i can let it idle.

 

[Big Woo]

Well I can not say what the timing will be there, but if everything else is correct it should be close, but maybe a little retarded (usually). Many factors come into play here, which is why the manufacturers built in an adjustment.

 

[bling5tatus]

Discussing engine break in techniques will start a religious war. I don't think it's necessary to "not let your car idle"... look up motoman and follow his technique, many many many people say his technique is the best.

 

[Big Woo]

I tend to think that he wants to follow the JAM protocol, because he has a JAM shortblock or longblock, and he wants to preserve whatever form of a warrenty came with it.

Engine break in procedures, yes that is a nasty subject, however it is not the topic of this thread.

 

[Spoolin98]

Discussing engine break in techniques will start a religious war. I don't think it's necessary to "not let your car idle"... look up motoman and follow his technique, many many many people say his technique is the best.

Well considering JAM built my entire motor and they gave me exact directions on how to break the motor in, Im going to follow what they say.

I know everyone has there own way of breaking in a motor, but Im following the directions provided. I have seen motoman's way, I dont disagree with it, but I dont agree with it either. As many people who say its the best, there are just as many who argue its the worst. So like I said, Im following the directions provided to me by the people who did the machine work and built my bottom end.

 

[Spoolin98]

Big Woo, thanks for the help. Its much appreciated