Help with WI emissions/tuning PLEASE.

GoldÐiamond · 08-11-2006, 12:10 PM

I have read the "Strict Guidelines" for this forum, and I don't think I violated the rules, although I suppose its not "Highly Advanced Discussion." Sorry for any misappropriation.

Short Version:
190lph FP, EVOIII 16g, K&N, SAFC, NGK 7's, MBC
Failed NOx emission standard by .8974 grams/mile (2.8974;req. 2.000)

Long Version:
190lph FP, EVOIII 16g, K&N, SAFC, NGK 7's, MBC
OEM Exhaust Condition: Good to Very Good
HC: .4967 // CO: 6.1633 // NOx: 2.8974
S-AFC: -2% Low Throttle at all RPM points, -1% High Throttle at all RPM points
MBC: 12psi
Ambient Temperature: 75f
Time tester spun rollers: 10 min.
Datalogger: Palm won't sync to computer

I initially took the car in w/3 inch exhaust and 2g O2 sensor housing, with NO catalytic converter in order to see how poorly the car would do. It only passed CO, and failed the other parameters by a wide margin. I tried to bolt the OEM exhaust on but wasn't aware that the 2g O2 sensor housing doesn't fit with the 1g OEM exhaust. I was only able to use 1 housing stud when bolting to the exhaust. This non-fitment caused the exhaust to be very loud and I didn't take the car in with that setup. The next day I installed a 1g O2 housing. The car is obviously quiter, and less powerful with slower spoolup.
__________________________________________________ ______________

The questions are:
1. How can I pass, it seems that I am VERY close - and I only get 1 more free try?

2. Is only the 190lph FP causing what I am guessing to be a rich condition, (unburned fuel;NOx) or are there other factors?

3. Can I tune with the S-AFC/450cc's safely to pass the emissions test?

hakcenter · 08-11-2006, 03:42 PM

Your going to need a cat at the least.

A few extra things you can do, is retard the timing and pick up the idle as high as their test will allow, i think its 1150 or something, you wanna be just under that.

And take out as much fuel as you can with your safc till you start getting pops in your exhaust (misfires) and add fuel till it goes away, then give it some head room.

GoldÐiamond · 08-11-2006, 04:21 PM

I have ALL OEM exhaust (inc. CAT) installed. The high idle thing sounds like a plausible idea, though.

GoldÐiamond · 08-14-2006, 08:31 AM

I did a little research and found out that the 180F thermostat could be contributing to me failing the test.
Has anyone experienced this?
Should I get an OEM thermostat?

1LE · 08-14-2006, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldÐiamond

Should I get an OEM thermostat?

Yes.

topstreet · 08-14-2006, 09:34 AM

NOx is a byproduct of heat. I higher t-stat is going to make this worst. If you passed the other two ok, then take 3-4 bottles of HEAT in the yellow bottles and try again. If you have a cat that could go on there it will make things easier.

Or just take it to a emissions test station WithOut a 4wd roller. Law says they have to be able to serve you at all the stations. That way you get out with an idle test.

Good luck!

GoldÐiamond · 08-14-2006, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by topstreet

NOx is a byproduct of heat. I higher t-stat is going to make this worst. If you passed the other two ok, then take 3-4 bottles of HEAT in the yellow bottles and try again. If you have a cat that could go on there it will make things easier.

Or just take it to a emissions test station WithOut a 4wd roller. Law says they have to be able to serve you at all the stations. That way you get out with an idle test.

Good luck!

Let me just be clear - I have the stock/OEM CATALYTIC CONVERTER installed on the car.

What does HEAT do, will that much of it damage anything?

Last time I went to the WEST BEND emission station, and they didn't have the straps - so they just did the idle test. I passed after I had to go get the stock air filter housing to pass the visual inspection. The only problem is I work 9-5 so its nice to do this during my lunch break on 76th and Clinton, which is 2 minutes from work.

BTW - How is business?
I've been trying to tie up loose ends (like this emissions headache) so I can give you some business with the suspension stuff I talked to Jake about.

GoldÐiamond · 08-18-2006, 10:37 AM

I tried to do a little research on the product in question, (as well as SEARCH the threads) which is actually HEET.

http://www.goldeagle.com/heet/products.htm

HEET

• Prevents gas-line freeze-up.
• Removes water from fuel system.
• Prevents rust and corrosion.

Iso-HEET

• Ultimate water remover.
• Absorbs 5 times more water than regular gas dryers.
• Designed for year round use in all 2-cycle and 4-cycle gas and diesel engines.
• Removes water from fuel system.
• Prevents rust and corrosion.

Which one of these products would be most beneficial to use with 3/4 tank of Premium fuel, for emissions purposes?

GermanDSM · 08-18-2006, 11:28 AM

Just use the standard HEET with a quarter tank of regular gas. Lower octane fuel burns more completely than premium. Turn idle up to max. allowed amount and make sure the cat is heated up. If you are really desperate, retard your timing.

akdsmer · 08-18-2006, 12:56 PM

Unburned fuel is Hydrocarbons (HC), not NOx.

NOx is formed when combustion chamber temperatures rising over 2400-2500 degrees. The Nitrogen in the combustion chamber combines with the Oxygen to creat various forms of Oxides of Nitrogen. To control this pollutant, Exaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) and a Reduction bed in the Catalytic converter is used. EGR allows a metered amount of intert exhaust back into the cylinders to reduce the amount of air/fuel that is allowed to enter. This reduces the amount of heat produced by the combustion chamber. Another benefit is that is slightly reduces the displacement and reduces fuel consumption. The Catalytic converter is also designed to break the NOx back into Nitrogen and Oxygen. On top of bolt-on fixes, it also requires good fuel control, ie. not lean. Lean mixtures create the higher combustion heat which creates NOx.

Jut by reinstalling your Catalytic Converter (assuming it is still good) you will likely pass inspection without doing anything else. I would also ensure that your EGR is functioning (the plate isn't blocked off

)

Your leaning out the fuel mixture will not help the prevention of NOx either. I would return the fuel mixture back to normal since I didn't see larger injectors in your list of upgrades.

As long as your vehicle is in fuel control (closed loop), the cooler t-stat will likely help with the NOx problem, but the 195 thermostat will not cause the NOx to rise dramatically.

I've put a bunch of heet (both types) into many cars to see what effect this has on the two-speed (idle and 2500 rpm) tailpipe tests. I HAVEN'T TRIED IT ON A DYNO TEST. There is very little to no improvement on the tailpipe numbers, regardless of 1-5 bottles of heet. The only real result is that that the large amount of alcohol will help to start cleaning your fuel system, allowing all that crud to accumulate in your fuel filters and fuel injectors.

GoldÐiamond · 08-21-2006, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akdsmer

Just by reinstalling your Catalytic Converter (assuming it is still good) you will likely pass inspection without doing anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TalonJohn

Let me just be clear - I have the stock/OEM CATALYTIC CONVERTER installed on the car.

Anyway, AKDSMER - Thanks a lot for the detailed information, I am trying to deduce which information is applicable to my situation. I basically have OEM emission/exhaust/fuel/cooling equipment save the 190lph FP and the 180 degree thermostat - and I am still failing, albeit by a small margin. You are saying that:

1. HEET doesn't do much for emission results.
2. HEET can damage some fuel system components.
3. NOx is a product of a lean mixture; the 190lph FP is irrelavant.
4. NOx is a product of a lean mixture; 87 octane gasoline wouldn't help.

So, what do YOU think I could try?

1LE · 08-21-2006, 10:05 AM

Did you check your EGR system for proper function yet?

Other than that, if you still have the original cat, it could be at end of life. A new cat could make all the difference in the world.

akdsmer · 08-22-2006, 11:01 AM

It is my understanding that you failed for NOx while the catalyst was removed and since then you reinstalled it but have not had it tested. NOx is controlled by:

Normal air/fuel ratios
Normal coolant temperatures (or slightly cooler, while maintaining closed loop operation)
Functioning Catalytic Converter (3 way)
Functioning EGR system

The slower burning high octane fuel can reduce combustion temperatures slightly so running premium may actually help it.

Bottom line. Working CAT and EGR working and it should pass cleanly.

Let me know if I'm understanding your present circumstances wrong.

GoldÐiamond · 08-22-2006, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akdsmer

It is my understanding that you failed for NOx while the catalyst was removed and since then you reinstalled it but have not had it tested.

Let me know if I'm understanding your present circumstances wrong.

Sorry, I looked back on the starting post - and it is misleading. The readings before I installed the OEM exhaust WITH CATALYTIC CONVERTER were extremely worse than the ones I gave in the 1st post. The numbers I gave in the first post are the numbers with OEM exhaust and OEM catalytic converter. /// So its like I'm really close, but need some minor adjustment/tune in order to pass. 2 more quick questions:

This OEM CAT was hung on the side of my garage for many months - but it didn't seem to have any additional visual rust. How fragile or CAT's to weather exposure?

Has anyone ever failed, and then passed after only cleaning EGR valve?

GoldÐiamond · 08-22-2006, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akdsmer

Functioning Catalytic Converter (3 way)

What does 3-way refer to?

akdsmer · 08-22-2006, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldÐiamond

What does 3-way refer to?

a TWC or Three Way Catalyst does two things:

The first bed uses platinum and plladium to oxidize Hydrocarbons and Carbon Monoxide making water and Carbon Dioxide. The second bed uses Rhodium to Reduce the Oxides of Nitrogen (NOx) back into N2 and O2.

Factory Catalyst was a TWC and it is very difficult to even find a oxidizing catalyst only. I mearly inserted it out of being technically correct.