DSMLink//DSMChips Stg 3 Chip//A'PEXi SAFC2

[eclipsegst3131]

ok so here it goes...i've got a fair amount of mods done to my talon tsi awd right now...so now is the time i believe for me to get into the tuning aspect of it all. i figure my choices are to get dsm link, get a dsmchips eprom or use an apexi safc2 or something like it. now any feedback on what i should do would be awesome. i already have an apexi safc 2 from a buddy that i got real cheap...but i think id rather go with one of the other two routes. also im on a real real tight budget. and i know that dsmlink is almost 5 times more than just the chip. my current mods are

intake, slightly larger dejon smic, intercooler pipes, greddy rs bov, 2.5" turbo back exhaust with o2 dump, walbro 190 fuel pump and a dejon tool mbc

so if anyone could please lead me into the right direction of what i should do that would be more than appreciated thanks

[ginsu417]

It all depends how fast you want to go, and how much you want to spend.

The SAFC will work for minor corrections and not-too-drastic changes in injector sizing. However, because the SAFC alters fuel by changing the amount of airflow the ECU sees, you'll find that as you get up there in the injector sizing, (and correction) it gets harder and harder to tune because changing the airflow signal also puts you in a different spot on the timing map. And there's only so much you can "trick" the ECU before you start making drivability compromises.

Personally, I prefer the chipped EPROM path, because it's a little cheaper than going DSMLink, and I like to muck with the code. But that requires some homework, and pulling the chip out, and reburning (or replacing) it every time you want to make a change is not the most enjoyable experience.

If you don't mind spending the money, DSMLink offers you damn-near stand-alone capability, but with a much more "n00b-friendly" starting point. It costs less than a standalone, but you'll still need a laptop.

You'll probably find yourself using an SAFC (or equivalent) for fine-tuning anyway, so that's probably the best place to start.

[eclipsegst3131]

well i plan on maxing out the power of the stock turbo and injectors before replacing them so i figured if i had a chip burned then i would be using it for a while. there's a dyno about 20 minutes from my house as well (awd in fact too ) and at first i was gonna see if they could burn a custom chip for me, but who knows, id like to go the chip route, i mean i know of a few local kids with honda civics that have all gone thru that shop and all had chips burned and their cars are tuned and running perfectly all the time. if i had a chip burned, do i have to use the safc2 as well? or can i go without it. thanks for all the help

[dsm-onster]

How far do you want to go with your 14b? Do you want the option of upgrading from turbo to turbo. How far do you want to go: 300whp, 400whp, 500 whp. Either way you'll need a new fuel pump and FMIC. . .

Path 1: Cheap

Fuel management: SAFC
Turbo: Up to a Small 16g or big 16g
Injectors: 550s
Fuel pump: 190 l/hr


Path 2: A little more expensive but you'll have to know exactly what you want.

Fuel management: SAFC and chip
Turbo: This is limited by whatever injectors for which your chip is programmed
Injectors: whatever injectors for which your chip is programmed
Fuel pump: 255 l/hr


Path 3: The most expensive within a smaller budget but you'll have plenty of room to grow and change

Fuel management: DSMLink
Turbo: Whatever your injectors can handle. If you want to upgrade then just get bigger injectors. No need to get another chip. Once you get to 50trim+ territory, you'll appreciate the no-lift-to-shift, antilag, coolant temp offset, and bunch other things.
Injectors: whatever injectors you need for your turbo
Fuel pump: 255 l/hr

also im on a real real tight budget. and i know that dsmlink is almost 5 times more than just the chip

You'll need a decent logger so add that to your setup, but subtract that from your cost for dsmlink because it comes with the best logger out there. So that brings a DSMLink setup down in total costs quite a bit.

You'll either pay more for a good high potential set up now. Or way more through out the process later. Look at me. Through out the "process" of building on my car I've bought a scanmaster that i don't need, a MAFt I don't need and probably injectors that are too small (750s were the same price as 650s at the time, but I opted for the 650s because thats all a maft can really handle). I got a 255 l/hr pump right off the bat and later got dsmlink that I should have gotten in the first place.

[dsm-onster]

Originally Posted by eclipsegst3131

well i plan on maxing out the power of the stock turbo and injectors before replacing them so i figured if i had a chip burned then i would be using it for a while.

There's no need to burn a chip for stock injectors. It is not worth the money for the increase in power from a slight leaner tune and not that much more timing your dyno shop could add. all this can be accomplished with a safc. but its not worth the hastle of tuning a safc while still running stock injectors IMHO.

Until you get an upgrade in injectors, a means to tune them, and a fuel pump upgrade; just rewire your stock pump and turn your boost up to 15 psi. Your dynoshop will probably do this and charge you $80 per hour to do it .

[titogs95]

DSMLINK.
It is worth the extra $. I am currently running DSMChip, Logger and SFAC (for fine tune only) and I can't control the Timing. I am planing in getting rid of my Safc and DSMchip just to run DSMLINK If I don't make the car run fine by next month.....

Remember to run dsmlink you need a Laptop, but you may use a PDA.

[eclipsegst3131]

my goal is just to get into 12's. even if its just a 12.999, and im guessing thats a power number of around 300 as well. so maybe ill just buy dsmlink....it seems like what you said, just gonna end up paying itself off in time, ### i know ill go thru a few chips. but in the mean time of all that, would the safc help me out alot, just using that itself? my buddy used it on his stock 2g gst and gained 9whp. so i was thinking maybe ill just hav that hooked up until i can get dsmlink and larger injectors and parts like that.

[90blacktsiawd]

I've done both of the options being spoken about in this thread. I was using a Keydiver chip/Maft/logger combo for maybe a year or so. I've rescently moved on to DSMlink. I got a pretty good tune with the chip and maft. I didn't have any complaints for the most part. With the chip compensated for the injectors it ran really nice without even touching the maft. Of course now that i've stepped up to DSMlink i wouldn't go back. It's so much easier to make changes. But the thing that i love the most so far is the logging. It's so incredibly easy to pull up a log and compare anything you'd like to on the same graph. It was alittle more tedious to do using the pocketlogger as it would have each parameter in seperate graph that you could move around to look at the ones you wanted. But onyl 3 at a time.

I would say if your going to do it then do it right the first time and get DSMlink. Now i didn't notice if you said or not but do you already have the eprom ecu? I mean either choice is going to require you to get one.

[dsm-onster]

Originally Posted by eclipsegst3131

my goal is just to get into 12's. even if its just a 12.999, and im guessing thats a power number of around 300 as well. so maybe ill just buy dsmlink....it seems like what you said, just gonna end up paying itself off in time, ### i know ill go thru a few chips. but in the mean time of all that, would the safc help me out alot, just using that itself? my buddy used it on his stock 2g gst and gained 9whp. so i was thinking maybe ill just hav that hooked up until i can get dsmlink and larger injectors and parts like that.

Sure keep your cheap safc that you know works. And just get a AFPR for now, for your walbro fuel pump upgrade. You may be overrunning your stock fpr now.

Besides... here's a little trick. Up your fuel pressure to 50 psi. My car idles and operates just fine at 50 psi base fuel pressure. This will make your 450s flow like 525cc injectors (according to DSM_Tuning_Sheet_v2.1). Remember to disconnect your vacuum source to your AFPR before adjusting base fuel pressure. This will give you more fuel and help you raise the fuel cut threshold allowing you to run over 15 psi safely. Also, the injector deadtime will be stock so you don't have to spend so much time tuning to balance your fuel trims.

Also, get a used laptop (you'll need it for dsmlink anyway) and the laptop version of Tunerstein. And tune away!!! until you sell your safc & 450cc injectors, and get DSMLink and big injectors. 525cc injectors and a 190 l/hr fuel pump are plenty for a 14B. Be carefull of "MAF overrun" (read up about this) as I was overrunning my stock "hacked" maf with a small 16g at 15 psi. If you do encounter this then for cheap you can just hack your 1g maf and back out your fuel mixture screw on the maf (read up on these to do it properly here), or get a 2g maf and wait for your DSMLink. You can plug a 2gmaf right in and tell your 1g ecu that you have 2g maf and it will run perfectly with DSMLink 2g mafs are good for 400horsepower or something similar to that.

[ginsu417]

I'm not trying to start a war here, but by my calculations, with 50psi base FP, at 15 psi of boost the pressure in the rail is going to hit over 4 bars (roughly 65psi). The Walbro 190 flows a max of 110lph at that pressure (under the BEST conditions - excellent voltage, minimal restriction) loosely hitting about 1833ccs/min. So divide that by 4 injectors and we get 450ccs of flow at best - if the system is working perfectly at 14V, 100% efficiency, which It most definitely isn't. 43-45psi is about as high as I would be comfortable taking the base fuel pressure on that pump. Someone please chime in and correct me if I'm wrong, as I frequently am.

[dsm-onster]

Originally Posted by ginsu417

I'm not trying to start a war here, but by my calculations, with 50psi base FP, at 15 psi of boost the pressure in the rail is going to hit over 4 bars (roughly 65psi). The Walbro 190 flows a max of 110lph at that pressure (under the BEST conditions - excellent voltage, minimal restriction) loosely hitting about 1833ccs/min. So divide that by 4 injectors and we get 450ccs of flow at best - if the system is working perfectly at 14V, 100% efficiency, which It most definitely isn't. 43-45psi is about as high as I would be comfortable taking the base fuel pressure on that pump. Someone please chime in and correct me if I'm wrong, as I frequently am.

You know, I never thought about the 190 pump like that but that sure looks correct to me... This is just one more reason to fork over the extra 10 bones for a walbro 255 high pressure pump. I am even more glad I did now.

...To the original poster: just ditch the SAFC and put it towards dsmlink and the biggest injectors you can afford. I think you can get 850s for the same price as 650s.

[eclipsegst3131]

thanks for all the advice everyone. im going to end up just going the dsmlink route, but probably in a month or so. in the meantime im gonna have the safc2 hooked up this weekend. is there anything else suggested to run? and you state using an afpr, what one would you suggest is a cheap and good buy. thanks again for the help.