My Logger Results - Help

[4G63dsmpwr]

Here are my logger results from a run this morning, couldn't open it up to much b/c of traffic in front of me but I almost got to the top of 3rd:

RPM Knock Timing O2

1ST GEAR
2375 0 17 .94
3000 0 18 .94
3593 0 16 .94
4500 4 14 .92
5531 4 16 .90
6468 4 14 .92
2ND GEAR
4000 0 15 .94
4593 7 13 .92
4968 7 12 .92
5593 6 16 .92
6062 5 17 .90
6250 7 15 .90
3RD GEAR
4593 7 13 .92
5156 5 15 .92
5625 4 16 .92
If you guys could help me out w/tuning this thing I can't seem to get rid of that knock sum. It was a lot worse yesterday (12,16 knock) so I got it a little better. I'm not making much timing at all, whats up w/that? Is that b/c of the 4 and 7 knock count? Ok well let me know any input you guys have, by the way I'm using an AFC, Erick

 

[jw]

How is your Hi setting on the AFC like?

 

[4G63dsmpwr]

Around +35 until like 4000, where it goes something like 39, 40, and then around 42 @ 6500. Not exactly sure but around there-

 

[jw]

How much boost are you running? I wondered why with the stock turbo you have to set the AFC +30 something. You are dumping way too much fuel. Depending on how hack the MAS is, the setting will vary but it still wont get to +30. I am surprise you dont see fuel cut at that range. Btw, what max of airflow hz you see on the AFC?

 

[4G63dsmpwr]

I'm running 18lbs of boost w/spikes of 20. My MAS is hacked as you can pretty much, the entire lower section (not just the honeycomb) is gone, I cut it off. I hit fuel cut in 3rd gear sometimes, not most of the time though. I'm not sure about the Hz on the AFC, I didn't look while running, but on the logger it goes right up to 1606 (which I think is the max) and stays there. I'd think that its somehwere near 2300 b/c I hit fuel cut sometimes. Thanks

 

[jw]

I would set to zero and see if it runs better.
How do tune to make it +35%? Running pig rich will have knocks also despite the car runs like crap. Use O2 with a grain of salt, it's not accurate enough to do any tuning with. You have to understand 510s injectors are 11% bigger than stock 450s. So, setting at zero is already giving 11% more airflow for the ECU to compensate.

 

[4G63dsmpwr]

Alright I will start from zero, no problem. But I don't get how to tune w/o looking at the O2. Basically I thought the goal was to get rid of knock be supplying enough fuel but dont add too much to the point where your hurting performance. But also keep in mind by not going lower than .90 b/c thats too lean? Can you help me out jw? I seem kind of confused.

 

[jw]

Here is what I would do, the procedure is a long process but it works. Before you start tuning, you have to make sure the car is in good shape. So, do the normal maintenance but here are some of the highlights:
1) Perform an intake leak test and fix all leak problems.
2) Use the right plugs (copper NGK BPR6/7ES gapped to .028").

Now, it is time for tuning. Set it to stock boost 10psi, turn the S-AFC down to -11% and do some run. At 2500rpm on 3rd, make a pull all the way to 6500rpm and see there is no knock and timing looks good. If you see no knocks, turn the boost up 1-2psi and try again without touching the AFC setting. Let's say you see some knocks happening at 6kprm, rich it about 2-4% up on the rpm and run again. The intercooler will probably heatsoak after a few runs so you have to remember whatever you do, it's not going to help. Either let the car cool down or tuning it the next day. Keep doing this until you hit the desire boost level, only rich things up at the rpms where it knocks. I would tune for min knock sums of < 7 and good timing advance ~20 degree up top. What you tune today may be different tomorrow because of weather. If you find that you have to rich things too much, it means you are either running:
1) too much boost
2) low octane level or crappy gas
3) IC heatsoak
4) too high intake temperature

 

[4G63dsmpwr]

Alright thanks for the explanation. I actually just just did a leak test two days ago and found: that my MBC was leaking (TurboXS P.O.S.) so I ordered a Dejon, TB gasket was leaking, and the BISS o-ring was leaking I've ordered all of that. Should I wait until those three leaks are fixed before attempting to tune? I'm not sure when I'll have the MBC, prob. another week. And as far as the 3 reasons you said I was running rich:

1. I was running 18lbs of boost, maybe a little too high until I get better at tuning my car.
2. I have never put anything else than Sunoco 94 oct. in my car so I don't think thats the problem.
3. IC heatsoak is a possibility...
4. The intake temperature (you mean the outside temp right?) was around 60deg. on those pulls.

And I have NGK BPR6s in my car right now.

How do you know when your IC is heatsoaked? When does this usually happen with the stock IC and a setup similiar to mine?

I'm going to try what you said ASAP if you think its an alright idea w/the leaks I mentioned above, or just leave my car running how it is for the next week. Thanks A LOT man, I appreciate all the help you've given me. Erick

 

[jw]

One thing I failed to mention is to check your base ign timing. Make sure it's set to 5 degree BDTC at idle. You can probably turn it up a little but I would stay with stock timing until your car is properly tune and work upwards from there.

You can actually touch the IC to see if it heatsoak. If the core feel *hot*, it's probably heat soak. The stock SMIC cannot take too many passes without heatsoaking. The cooler temperature will probably keep the temperature down but depending on how well the airflow to the IC, it can still heatsoak.
The intake temperature is the temperature entering the MAS. The logger should be able to log that. The outside/ambient temperature can be 60 degree but what's under the hood temperature could be well over 100 degree. Hotter air in means hotter air out, simple enough.

Also, check for MAS overrun. It's simple, switch your S-AFC into graphical mode showing karmen and rpm (2 variables so it wont have too many lines to complicate things) only. Do the run as usual and keep watch on the graph, the airflow curve should keep climbing and should not dip. If you see it dipping (look like a richter scale effect), you know the it's MAS overrun. The car will see a sudden lean condition due to the airflow dipping and knocks follow afterwards. 1G MAS tends to overrun around 2000-2100hz from what I've seen on my 2 1G MASes. Even with it hacked, it will still overrun around that range. The limitation is on the MAS itself, nothing I can do except keep hacking it (or adding bypass on the intake pipe to allow more unmetered air) and keep the airflow hz lower than 2khz. If this happens, I would suggest going for 2G MAS, it should handle 2700-2800hz before MAS overrun and it's plenty for up to a Green turbo range.

Good luck.

 

[Grizzly Racing]

what is the reason for not using stock injectors and ecu?

have you logged your car with stock inj/ecu setup?

i dont see a turbo in your mods..... so i take it your using 14B?

 

[4G63dsmpwr]

Well the 510 inj. came w/my JSPEC engine when I bought it. And as far as the ECU, a guy I know who doesn't mod his car traded me straight up for my non-EPROM, I took it so later on I can get the TMO mods done to it. Yes, I have the stock turbo.

 

[Grizzly Racing]

have you tried to reinstall your stock injectors?

with a stock turbo you shouldnt even need to be worrying about tuning an afc.....

try logging your stock injectors without AFC and see what happens.... more then likely you should be able to get a good 17-18psi on pump gas with low knock and good timing.

when you modded your mas did you install the 10k resistor? i noticed that once i installed a blaha style mas that tuning the AFC became 100x easier because the ECU always reads around the same intake temp.

also with this blaha mod i was able to run 19psi on pump gas with no afc and stock injectors.

 

[4G63dsmpwr]

The 450s are gone, i don't even have them. I haven't installed the 10K resistor yet, I researched the other day though and want to do it ASAP but just want to make sure I do everything right. Alright well I gotta get this car running right I'm going to try to start from 0 like JW said... but if I do that then how will I know when I'm running too rich b/c he said to take the O2 readings w/a grain of salt? Thanks, Erick

 

[jw]

Use the reading as a warning device (O2 reading within range) and a guide instead for tuning purposes. For every car is different and like different O2 readings. My car may like .85v but on your car maybe running too lean with the same readings. The stock O2 is just not accurate to tune with. If you really want to depend on O2 for tuning, get yourself a wideband. Like I have said, tune with low knock sum and good timing curve. If you find even by riching it up and still does not help with knocks, the reasons are stated above.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

What are your low throttle settings to get trims centered? Use the ECUs "knowledge" to help you find out how much compensation you need for your setup. With a hacked MAS its not always a linear situation between lo and hi throttle, but its still the best place to start. Start there on your high settings, or 5-10% richer. Lean out until you get knock. With a hacked mas my low rpm settings between hi and lo were way off, but by 5k rpm they were the same or very close.

 

[Silent2g]

yikes!!!
a little excessive on the knock
the stock ecu pulls timing at the knock sum of 7

turn the boost down. the knockw ill lower. or run better gas.

my knock sum at 15 psi in 4th gear starting from 3k is maybe 1. thats at 3200 rpms when it goes full tilt. then drops back to zero.

only fuel mods are the rewire and 510 injectors.