I'd like to find a thread where someone has posted a simple list of measurable tuning goals. This is something I feel is badly needed in the Tech Articles section for beginners to quickly reference, so if anyone can find me a good thread, or would like to write a new one in the Articles section, please do.

What I'm looking for is this - everyone should be shooting for common goals when they tune. We're not asking what settings to input, but instead, measurable output at WOT for maximum power. This includes:

Timing: (a good range to shoot for within 5-10 degrees)
Knock: (an acceptable count, obviously zero being the optimal)
O2: (what everyone should shoot for)
EGT: (a good temp range)

and anything else I'm forgetting....

I'm sure people can find all of this in various places, but it would be nice to have them all in one place. The settings to achieve these goals will be different from car to car, so I'm not really interested in those with this post. Again, if there is a good post that covers this, please send me the link. I'd like to move it to the Tech Articles section so it can be referenced easily by everyone.

Thanks guys,

generaly a good point to be are these.

~pump gas~ (91 octane)
timing -----20-23 max (remember too much timing is not good on pump gas, you can burn sh!t up fast and pop a HG)
knock -----you can allow upto 12-14 counts
base timing---- 5 degrees
egt's----- well every car is different in there own way, but I shoot for around 750c to 800c
boost-------- depends on what compression you are running and size of turbo, but on pump gas no more then 19lbs for a safe margin
o2's------- tipicaly around .89-.91
base fuel pressure -------- I run 43 with the vac off on pump gas


~race fuel~ (110-116 octane)
timing -------25-29 is good timing on race fuel
knock -------well if you can get the car to knock on race fuel then same as above 12-14 counts
base timing------ you can leave it or bump it up to 8 degrees
egt's ----- same as above maybe alittle more agressive
boost,-------- depending on size of turbo, but with my 50 trim I can run upto 26-28lbs with no problems
02's ------- well the race fuel kinda kills the o2 sensors so this sensor is not a good tuning tool on race gas
base fuel pressure---- depends on how much boost you run, I run 50 base with anything above 20lbs of boost, thats with the vac off the AFPR

These are just good points i have picked up along my journey, I know this isnt a link but still good points to start at.

I have good luck with those settings, ran my fastest time with my FWD with a 11.95@121mph

hope this helps some.
-Jake

A thing to add. EGT's can be misleading. If you are running rich you will get a flame in your exhaust manifold obviously shooting your EGT's up. So what do you do, add more fuel and it doesnt get any better.
I have an EGT, but havent put it in because it seems almost useless.

Originally posted by 98TsiAWD
A thing to add. EGT's can be misleading. If you are running rich you will get a flame in your exhaust manifold obviously shooting your EGT's up. So what do you do, add more fuel and it doesnt get any better.
I have an EGT, but havent put it in because it seems almost useless.

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Right, but if your EGT's are off because of that, your other target numbers will likely be off as well. In general, there is usually a sweet spot for all of the numbers above.

Originally posted by evil_eagle
generaly a good point to be are these.
~pump gas~ (91 octane)

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Or 93 or 94.

timing -----20-23 max (remember too much timing is not good on pump gas, you can burn sh!t up fast and pop a HG)

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As long as you are not getting knock, you can run as much timing advance as you want.

knock -----you can allow upto 12-14 counts

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And you're worried about timing blowing stuff up?

base timing---- 5 degrees

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DEFINATELY!

egt's----- well every car is different in there own way, but I shoot for around 750c to 800c

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EGT's are useless, if you have active timing control (like the stock ECU does).

boost-------- depends on what compression you are running and size of turbo, but on pump gas no more then 19lbs for a safe margin

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Or just use whatever works best for your car, it's not something you can generalize.

o2's------- tipicaly around .89-.91

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O2's are meaningless, don't pay attention to them.



...Kyle T.
93 TSi AWD "TURBO4"

Anything to add about FP and injector size (for the benefit of all, and personal reasons ).

Originally posted by LandoAWD
Anything to add about FP and injector size (for the benefit of all, and personal reasons ).

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Make sure you have enough!

sorry to sound like a newbie; but i dont have clear the timing topic; but on the dsmlink V2 it only shows up to 10 degrees in timing advanse
how come someone is suggesing 20+?
anyways; what timing advance would be recomendable for a gsx with a big28 and all the supporting mods ?

The 20 degrees is your total timing advance, the dsmlink is showing you base timing advance I believe. If you drive around and look at the timing you will see that under light load and cruising you can have well over 30 degrees of timing, but at WOT this number will drop to about 17-20 depending on your tune. The base timing number is how many degrees the timing is advanced without any ECU input. If your base is 5 and the ECU adds 15 degrees, you get a total of 20 degrees, but if you bump the base timing to 8 degrees, you would end up with 23 degrees of total timing advance. Hope that helps.

Originally posted by kpt4321
Or 93 or 94.



As long as you are not getting knock, you can run as much timing advance as you want.



And you're worried about timing blowing stuff up?



DEFINATELY!



EGT's are useless, if you have active timing control (like the stock ECU does).



Or just use whatever works best for your car, it's not something you can generalize.




O2's are meaningless, don't pay attention to them.



...Kyle T.
93 TSi AWD "TURBO4"

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you're quite paranoid.. too much timing will blow head gaskets whether you knock or not.. 12 counts of knock, while not desireable, is not damaging... i wouldn't recommend running around daily hitting 20 counts, but it's nothing to freak out about if you see it..

Originally posted by TwoLiterV8Eater
The 20 degrees is your total timing advance, the dsmlink is showing you base timing advance I believe.

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DSMLink shows total timing advance, not base. It assumes you have a base timing of 5 degrees. If you are only getting 10 degrees of timing advance and don't know why, you need to read the DSMLink Tuning Guide, it will explain how that stuff works. You can get it off of the DSMLink forums.

Brad

I stand corrected. I am not too familiar with the DSMLink (I own a 1g). If he is only getting 10 degrees total timing advance, something is seriously wrong because the ECU has a reason to pull out a bunch of timing.

Keep your knock as low as you can, 3 counts or under. Period.

Pure C-16 race gas or Mexican horse piss, it makes no difference. get that damn knock down.

and I'm not being paranoid, the knock and lower timing make your car slow!! Don't belive me, go out and crank your boost up so that you are solidly in the teens for knock. Go run thru the gears for a few and you will see that it feels slow and doggy. Now turn down the boost and properly tune it for that setting. If you can accurately measure your power(dyno or even a well calibrated GTech meter) for several runs with both boost settings/average knock counts, you will see that the average power is higher with the 0-3 counts of knock even tho the boost pressure is higher with more knock.

Originally posted by Bohrn
Pure C-16 race gas or Mexican horse piss, it makes no difference.

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I use piss daily.

I've always seen that it depends on the car. Much more often though as long as knock sum is under 10-14 in 3rd gear, the car makes more power than if tuned for very minimal knock.
[
QUOTE]Originally posted by Bohrn
Keep your knock as low as you can, 3 counts or under. Period.

Pure C-16 race gas or Mexican horse piss, it makes no difference. get that damn knock down.

and I'm not being paranoid, the knock and lower timing make your car slow!! Don't belive me, go out and crank your boost up so that you are solidly in the teens for knock. Go run thru the gears for a few and you will see that it feels slow and doggy. Now turn down the boost and properly tune it for that setting. If you can accurately measure your power(dyno or even a well calibrated GTech meter) for several runs with both boost settings/average knock counts, you will see that the average power is higher with the 0-3 counts of knock even tho the boost pressure is higher with more knock. [/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Mata
sorry to sound like a newbie; but i dont have clear the timing topic; but on the dsmlink V2 it only shows up to 10 degrees in timing advanse
how come someone is suggesing 20+?
anyways; what timing advance would be recomendable for a gsx with a big28 and all the supporting mods ?

Click to expand...

Lower compression ratio allows for more timing advance versus higher compression and lower amounts of timing advance. The 2G's would see around 18-19 degree's of timing as optimal.

Here's a good tuning site:
http://www.dsm-performance.com/fuel_injectors.php

Tuning for timing and no knock is the best way to make power, even if it means a lower boost level to achieve the right amount. Keeping fuel trims at or below 90% is also a good safe thing to do.

Some of this sounds quite differently to me. To my understanding this is what you should shoot for.

Knock- You do not want more than 6 counts of knock because the car will retard the timing and you will lose timing. You can see plenty of knock and your car may still be ok. If my car has 20 counts of knock it is generally running like crap.

EGTs- If your car is tuned pretty well on pump it has been my experience that your car will not get above 820C, unless you are seeing too much knock then your EGT's will shoot up really quick. I believe that you can safely go up to about 900C before your start melting things. Going around 75mph my EGT's will be around 750C to 800C. If I am going up a mountain those numbers will obviously go up, maybe to 860C, but drop if I go WOT.

Timing- Some people would debate that w/ DSM link that less timing and more boost will give you more power, but crappy gas mileage. However, on pump gas 16-22 degrees is not bad. I have never seen my car want to give me more than 22 degrees advance at WOT.

O2 volts- On every 1g except a 1990 a good area to be around is .86 to .90. On a 1990 things are a little different. You will be looking at .74 to .80. MANY will say however that you should not tune w/ O2s, but for knock, but IMO they are helpful if you are trying to find out if you are getting rich knock.

Originally posted by Groomz
Lower compression ratio allows for more timing advance versus higher compression and lower amounts of timing advance. The 2G's would see around 18-19 degree's of timing as optimal.

Here's a good tuning site:
http://www.dsm-performance.com/fuel_injectors.php

Tuning for timing and no knock is the best way to make power, even if it means a lower boost level to achieve the right amount. Keeping fuel trims at or below 90% is also a good safe thing to do.

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Can't get yer link to work....thanks.

I've read in a few post that to much timing advance will put the ecu into a different fuel map is this true? At what point would that be?

SO IS THIS STRICKLY A 1G TUNNING FORUM????? how about 2g's can'y read knock so its kinda harder to tune. And EGT's are a good way to see if your in the ballpark a slow steady rise to redline is optiumal. Fast rise your lean, constant high your rich. Of course if could read knock like 1g's I would'nt need to worry about EGT's.