After reading through some of the more recent threads and posts, I felt that something needed to be said about a problem that is escalating out of control.

This forum is degrading into a flame fest. People fail to appreciate this forum, or the community. Instead, they intentionally start arguments by brewing negativity at every turn. They degrade this forum and its reputation every time they do it and they don't seem to care. There is a word for this, it's called disrespect. Ask yourself, do you really appreciate what is given to you? If you truly appreciated DSM Tuners then you wouldn’t choose to tarnish its reputation by starting a flame war whenever you can.

The name of this forum is Non-Performance Mods, expect to see body kits, expect to see wings, expect to see wild paint schemes, because guess what, they’re all non-performance mods. It really annoys me that some people here act shocked and appalled when they see this type of thing. If you only think the eclipse looks good completely stock, then you have no reason to post here. Obviously, all your comments are going to be negative, therefore you aren’t helping anyone; you are post whoring and wasting the thread starter’s time. Personally, I appreciate how the eclipse looks stock, some nice rims, a drop, and I am happy. That being said, I don’t post here often but I do like to read this forum. I don’t believe that Body Kits and Wings are ugly, they just aren’t my style. I rarely post here because I can’t contribute my opinion if it is a bias one. When I read a post, and the thread starter asks for my opinion of his new body kit, I take a moment to think about it. Can I offer any constructive criticism, or is my opinion just bias because it’s a body kit? If it is the later, then there is no point in me replying to the thread, my opinion means little, because I didn’t really examine the body kit and formulate an honest opinion. I just looked at it and thought “It’s just a body kit, bleh…”

Sometimes I feel that I can offer a good opinion or constructive criticism, which is the only time I choose to reply. Here is an example of that type of situation. A person has a car with a curvy body kit, said person mounts a square-type, boxy wing, then asks for opinions. Well, now I have something to offer. I can reply telling him that his new wing clashes with the curviness of the body kit. However, there are two ways for me to do this, a wrong way, and the right way. The wrong would be negative criticism; the right way would be constructive criticism. Here are examples of extremely negative criticism (which is common here), and positive constructive criticism.

Negative Criticism: I don’t know what is uglier, the body kit or the wing. You should take both of them off, your whole car looks like crap.

Constructive Criticism: The sharp corners and edges really clash with the curviness of the body kit. I think you should remove it and find a new wing that flows better with the body kit.

There is always more then one way to say something. It really comes down to that old saying that your elders always told you. “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all”. Now, I am not implying that everyone throw out insincere compliments to each other. I’m just saying there is always another way to say something. So if you are going to express a negative reaction to something, you can at least find a nice and constructive way to do it, by doing so you show respect for this forum, its community, and its reputation. Not only that, its etiquette. Remember, regardless of how you feel about that body kit, wing, or those altezzas, that person worked hard to earn everything on his or her car. How would you feel if you worked hard to save enough money for a painting that you thought was absolutely amazing, you finally get and you want to share it with everyone. You show it to me, and I tell you “That’s ugly as hell! I can’t believe you wasted all that money for that piece of crap”. Not only is that an asshole thing to say, but how can I say that? Its art, everyone’s opinion of it is different. It’s no different than saying something similar about a person’s car. What does a comment like that say about you as a person? I’ll tell you, it says that you think your opinion is gold and it must be heard regardless of how it will make the person feel. Therefore you are egotistical, selfish, and inconsiderate. All of those things are a product of Immaturity, and if you are old enough to drive a car there is no reason to be immature. I'm 18 years old, but I choose to act more mature, or older, because I feel it makes me a better person. You are who you choose to be, so why not choose to be a better person?

Ask yourself why you come to the non-performance mods forum. Personally I enjoy coming here so I can see pictures of what people spend their time on. Although I wouldn’t do a lot of it, it doesn’t mean I don’t find it visually impressive. Just like I don’t paint, but I enjoy art. If you come here to make fun of people’s time and money for a laugh, please leave. If you come here to voice the same opinion of everything, over and over, please leave now.

Finally, if you’ve come for advice, to share pictures, or just to enjoy seeing things you may not see every day, then…

Welcome to the Non-Performance Mods section!

thanks......people really needed to hear that....

true and i also think people should use common sense when posting and not just using the space to post anything that comes to thier minds.

Also come on now.... would you really use the following line?

The sharp corners and edges really clash with the curviness of the body kit. I think you should remove it and find a new wing that flows better with the body kit.

I understand your point, and as well-articulated as it is, it is wrong. This site, as Ludachris has made a point of on several occasions, is geared for the performance tuner. A quote from the rules:

PERFORMANCE IS KING HERE - asking questions about body kits and loud blow off valves will give the impression that you're not here for performance. This site was built to encourage modifying DSMs to go faster, not look or sound faster. Though we have a forum available for these types of non-performance questions, we ask that you make an effort to keep your questions and discussions performance related. If you're not here to learn how to make your DSM perform better, we ask that you consider using other forums better suited to your needs.

I believe this says all that needs to be stated.

PERFORMANCE IS KING HERE - asking questions about body kits and loud blow off valves will give the impression that you're not here for performance.

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Last time I checked, the name of this section is non-performance mods. This is exactly what it says.

Non-Performance Mods (Interior/Exterior)
All discussions that aren't performance related; body kits, conversions, lighting, alarms, car audio, etc.

While I agree that performance dominates the rest of the site, what reason would performance have to dominate a non-performance section? Considering that the subtitle of the section name clearly states, body kits, conversions, lighting, alarms, and car audio. It is safe to say that there is no reason for a person to even TRY and insinuate that they are here for performance. Thus, your point; about these subjects giving the impression that you are not here for performance, is irrelevant.

Almost no DSM enthusiasts whom I know actually consider a naturally aspirated eclipse to be a "dsm."

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Redwards, your point is valid. However, no where in my post did I mention Non-Turbo eclipses, or them being DSMs. Although, N/Ts make up for a majority of the exterior mods, I’ve seen my fair share of GST and GSX eclipses with similar mods. It is those that I am referring to.

This is a non-performance forum; therefore N/Ts and 420As have a right to be here. However, this is also a DSM forum. Determining whether 420A eclipse has a right to be on a DSM site or not, is a different discussion entirely. While I can see your point in that it affects the general attitude toward the people with these cars, I never specified the 420A crowd as the target base, or majority. As it stands now, 4G63s and 420As are given the same amount of crap from people about exterior mods, so unless we can get passed that I fail to see the reason to complicate the issue by breaking them down into different groups when they both share the same problem.

My opinion of N/Ts and this forum: As stated numerous times, the name of this forum is Non-Performance mods. It is my belief that Eclipse N/Ts are Non-Performance cars. I cannot see the logic behind the concept that you must have a performance car, to put non-performance mods on it, is that not an oxymoron? N/Ts are prime candidates for Non-Performance mods, why would they not be welcomed here?

DSMTuners, the name means Tuning of Diamond Star Motors. Is an N/T a DSM? No, it’s not, you’ve made one pivotal point by stating that and I have no real legitimate argument against it. However, they are still eclipses and if they do not share the 4G63 heart, they still share its appearance. N/Ts will forever be our cousins, why do we have to hate on them in the ONE place on this forum they can feel welcomed? Also, the title of this forum is not Non-Performance Mods (4G63 Only) Until it is, I think the N/Ts have a right to be here.

I have to agree a little on both sides of the argument. The import industry wouldn't be 1/4 of the size it is now without the body kits, lights, stereos, wings and other things alot of the members here flame. And no matter you like that kind of stuff or not, every consumer benefits from a larger industry due to manufacturer competition. But on the otherhand, yeah, there's alot of tacky,pointless, crap that people are putting on their cars and if they decide to post a related subject on a public forum for the entire world to see...they better be ready for both the positive and negative feedback. If you take other's opinions so seriously and it upsets you so much when someone actually says they don't like your rainbow-brite paintjob or LED exhaust tip, then make the choice to not subject yourself to the public's opinion in the first place or go to a shrink to work on your self-esteem. Freedom of speech is a two-sided street.

Use the NON-Performance section as the rules demand; no body kits, tezziez or Bubb Rubb style shite. Figure it out, people. I have no patience for those that break the rules knowingly (or ignorantly; especially fragrantly in the presence of such well-defined rules). Stop whining, accept that you are not allowed to continue in your rule violation and find the tuning potential of your rig as opposed to the pre-teen catcher that you want.

Originally posted by nutshot
Use the NON-Performance section as the rules demand; no body kits, tezziez or Bubb Rubb style shite. Figure it out, people. I have no patience for those that break the rules knowingly (or ignorantly; especially fragrantly in the presence of such well-defined rules). Stop whining, accept that you are not allowed to continue in your rule violation and find the tuning potential of your rig as opposed to the pre-teen catcher that you want.

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Not that I'm "pro-rice", but where exactly do the rules say that Here's the description of this forum I'm seeing on the front page of the main forums menu:

"Non-Performance Mods (Interior/Exterior)All discussions that aren't performance related; body kits, conversions, lighting, alarms, car audio, etc. "

As far as I'm concerned, that defines this forum as the place for the discussion of ANY non-performance modification. I personally don't have a problem with what is being posted, but who posts it should understand that they may receive both positive AND negative feedback. Hell, what would a "forum" be if everyone had the same opinions and agreed on everything?

*yawn*

This forum, like every forum, and every thread, is like cable. If you don't like whats on, click on something else.

Let me let you all in on a few truths:

There will always be people who would rather look fast, than be fast. Just like there will always be people who would rather be fast than look fast.

DSM's are getting into a price range than a kid out of high school with $3000 saved up form his summer jobs can buy one, spend $1500 and have something that he considers 'original'.

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and only the other guy's stinks.

Ignorance has never and will never be a defense for stupidity.

Do what you want with your car. In the end, its you who has to deal with it. If you are modding your car to please others, you are doing it for the wrong reasons.

Like it or not, DSM's have turned from the semi-sleeper road crushers into the next big punchline because of cars with double decker wings, lime green paint jobs, and kids/people with no common sense.

And most of all:

THIS IS A GODDAMN INTERNET CHAT FORUM. This isn't the real world and it will never be a true depiction of the real world. Most of you will never see anyone else on this forum ever.

Originally posted by nutshot
I understand your point, and as well-articulated as it is, it is wrong. This site, as Ludachris has made a point of on several occasions, is geared for the performance tuner. A quote from the rules:

PERFORMANCE IS KING HERE - asking questions about body kits and loud blow off valves will give the impression that you're not here for performance. This site was built to encourage modifying DSMs to go faster, not look or sound faster. Though we have a forum available for these types of non-performance questions, we ask that you make an effort to keep your questions and discussions performance related. If you're not here to learn how to make your DSM perform better, we ask that you consider using other forums better suited to your needs.

I believe this says all that needs to be stated.

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This being said - no members have the right to drive others out or flame others for posting non-performance discussions in the non-performance forum. Anyone doing so will be subject to account termination. If you don't like cosmetic mods, you'll need to hold your tongue while you're in this forum.

I'm closing this thread now, as the point was made, and everyone should take his advice.