can we get pictures.....

welcome to the club!

Something tells me it was bad injector O-rings that caused it.
Happened to me once (only luckily it didn't get to a fire)

I've replace injectors but didn't have new o-rings at the time, so I though old ones will hold for a while. BIG mistake.

I started the car and let it warm up. After about 5 min, I saw something sparcle in the intake manifold cavity, so I look closer, and... a whole pool of fuel !

I think the whole town heard me screaming "SHUT IT DOWN !!!!!" to my friend, who was in the car....

hahah ever see broken arrow, towards the end when the guy gets in the chopper to start it and deke (travolta) screams "CUT THE POWER!!!" and he starts it and it explodes... thats what that reminded me of

It was not an injector o-ring.
I went and looked again today. all of the injectors look fine.
The harnesses to #1 &#2 are burned.

This was not a fuel fed fire. The fire never got more than about 4 inches high and it was electrical components, wiring, and throttle cable shielding that was burning...

Besides, this is a fresh motor including o-rings on the injectors.

ok.. here are some pics. the cam I was using sucks so I will have to find a better cam and try again.

pic 1
pic 2
pic 3
pic 4
pic 5
pic 6
pic 7
pic 8

Its really hard to see just how much or little damage was done in those pics. All of the powder from the extinguisher doesn't help either.

if i were you i would wash off that fire extinguisher powder

when mine caught fire it sat for a lil while before i could get parts to fix it. everywhere that fire ext powder was it corroded real bad.

Thanks, I'll wash it really well when I get home.

My friend just got a '96 Talon TSi and he was smelling fuel from somewhere near the hood so I took a look at it and discovered that the hose to the fuel rail was corroded and halfway torn off where the clamp tightens it. It was (looked like) a 1/4" rubber hose, I thought the fuel lines were suppose to be stainless steel pipes.

Originally posted by direw0lf
Well... I got my Eclipse back on the road.
The bad thing is, on my frist really drive in the car, it caught on fire. ...It started with my gas pedal getting hard to push and then getting stuck.

Click to expand...

I don't usually go out on a limb but this sounds like a common problem VW's suffered some number of years ago. Back yard mechanics have hazards with forgotten or short cut assembly processes.

Lemme guess, you left a major ground wire off that connects the engine to the body. When this happens the best electrical connection is through the accelerator cable(s)which will get so hot they will set anything on fire they touch. When it started getting stiff you should have reached for the key but you didn't know.

As I recall there is 1 or 2 small braided leads attached to the intake manifold and also a major brown(?) harness ground that attaches to the firewall(?).

You may still be able to check this with an inductive ammeter placed over the throttle cable where it traverses the manifold. Have someone turn the key on an off while you watch the ammeter needle for movement. It may need more load so you could turn the heater fan and A/c on to see what paths are being used. You might even be able to use a volt meter (digital preferred here) with one lead on the engine and the other on the body.

I don't know if the battery ground cable is attached to the body before it terminates on the engine.

This has happened on other cars as well, a lot of makers no longer ground the exhaust which can cause radio noise so if you had a ground there it would have used the pipe as a path. The gear shift cables are isolated with plastic or rubber bushings so they probably didn't suffer any damage but on car that are not will see damage also.

Let us know what you find, if this is correct you will have to replace the throttle cable(s).

Cheers,
GTM

Man... You hit the nail on the head.
Its funny that you tell me this after we have already figured most of it out. You put the final piece into the puzzle.

After a good cleaning of the engine compartment we discovered that the coil and transistor were undamaged and that any parts that were damaged were due to drippage of the foam covering from the throttle cables. So had figured out that it was an electrical fire that started with the throttle cable. We were looking for a wire that had possibly shorted against the throttle cable. The ground thing makes perfect sense and fits the situation perfectly. Thanks a lot.

As far as pulling the car over as soon as the throttle started sticking. I pulled over just as soon as I was able. I was in a heavy traffic area but it was no more than one minute between it sticking and my pulling over and turning the car off.

Yeah, I would say the throttle cable will need replacement. There is not much left of it.. or nothing left of the protective covering anyway. That's one of the ways we were able to determine where the damage came from. It was the most heavily damaged and vacuum lines in close proximity to the cable were unburned.

There really would have been no fire to speak of if the fuel return line hadn't been touching the throttle cable. And all things considered, the fire was very minimal. I think I'll need to replace maybe two of the injector pig tails, a couple vacuum lines, the short fuel return line, spark plug wires, and the throttle cables.

Thanks again for the input.

Originally posted by direw0lf
Man... You hit the nail on the head."

What th... you didn't ask before or after.

"After a good cleaning of the engine compartment"

That reminds me of another comment, dry chem fire extinguisher powder is "baking soda" treated with silicon to make it slippery for pressure dispersal. Baking soda is neutral to alkaline in ph and very reactive with aluminum to form aluminum oxide and make nasty spots that can only be polished out. WASH with water NOW!!

"We were looking for a wire that had possibly shorted against the throttle cable. The ground thing makes perfect sense and fits the situation perfectly. Thanks a lot."

You bet! Could have been a lot worse, VWs would sometimes burn to the ground. Frequently you had to cut the 10' tube from the tunnel which required making huge semi-circular cuts and then with hammer and chisel break the tube welds to remove the old one. Once installed you had to braze the new one in the tunnel and do same with the access holes you cut. Was a good paying job when covered by insurance for almost a full day's work if done right to make it water tight.

"As far as pulling the car over as soon as the throttle started sticking. I pulled over just as soon as I was able. I was in a heavy traffic area but it was no more than one minute between it sticking and my pulling over and turning the car off."

Sequence is key, clutch, neutral and coast while blowing horn wildly and lots of animated hand motions.

One thing for certain is the charging system works... or did until the fire.

"Thanks again for the input.

Click to expand...

"

I've been there and done that, even had a throttle cable get warm so added extra grounds. My 94 Caravan has 3-4 of these small braid grounds but only held in place by clips which are easy to pull off. All to cut corners of welding a nut to the body, making an eyelet on a wire, and installing a bolt which would probably cost them 25¢ whereas this cost them 10¢. When you see well made braided ground straps at the wrecking yard, grab them they are good for eliminating rf noise from hood, trunk, doors, and exhaust system.

So let this be a lesson to all of you to not overlook the innocent looking engine grounds when your battery cable does not have an extra terminal that goes to the body before it attaches to the engine.

Cheers,
GTM

So would it be a good idea to get a car stereo type terminal for the negative post of the battery (the ones with connections for 2 or 3 2 guage wires) and run a 2Guage wire straight to the chassis? As well as running a few extra ground straps?

I checked, there was one ground strap from the intake to the firewall but I did not see the harness ground you were talking about. Im sure its there somwhere. I didn't put the engine back together by myself. I had help. I'm fairly proficient when it comes to things mechanical but am no mechanic. I can do a job once I've seen it done or assisted at least once. I prefer it that way for my own peace of mind.

the reason I thought the timing of your post was funny:

I had just come back inside to post a message describing the burned throttle cable and that I was sure a short of some kind had set it to blaze (not having seen your post as of that time). And low and behold, I didn't need to make the post because my question was answered ahead of time.
that was really cool.

Originally posted by direw0lf
So would it be a good idea to get a car stereo type terminal for the negative post of the battery (the ones with connections for 2 or 3 2 guage wires)"

I don't like the idea of running a heavy wire to the radio chassis, should something fail it's going to try and use it for a major current carrier. Poof goes the radio.




"and run a 2Guage wire straight to the chassis? As well as running a few extra ground straps?"

If you mean from the negative battery post to a chassis (body) ground this would not hurt. The main gound battery cable is obviously heavy enough for the starter but with no secondary ground to the body it has to find another path for the charging system to work. You have a bolt on the battery post terminal so add a another short cable to the body. Then add a decent braided strap from the engine to the body.


" I checked, there was one ground strap from the intake to the firewall but I did not see the harness ground you were talking about. Im sure its there somwhere. I didn't put the engine back together by myself. I had help. I'm fairly proficient when it comes to things mechanical but am no mechanic."

The one strap I have seen on my son's car is way too small for a 90-120 amp alt. I'll have to look on his car for that brown wire and see where it is but I'm pretty confident it's there and I'm not confusing it with another car.

" I can do a job once I've seen it done or assisted at least once. I prefer it that way for my own peace of mind."

Sometimes that's like the blind leading the blind. or each thinks the other did some aspect of the job at hand without checking each other. My son assured me he had tightened down the heater hoses but I didn't check... drove 30 miles and it popped off on the freeway with the temp screaming towards peg. Grrrr

" And low and behold, I didn't need to make the post because my question was answered ahead of time. that was really cool."

Click to expand...

I usually visit the board a couple times a day, however, it's late night when I get to see the posts where I can contribute. Yours must have been pushed off the page for I didn't see it until this evening or I could have replied sooner. This bugs me for I could have saved you a couple days of hunting for answers, sorry.

Hopefully you are armed with enough info you can bag the parts from a wrecking yard and be running by Sunday.

Cheers,
GTM

1G's have two main grounding wires both look to be about 6 ga. One runs from the battery negative terminal to a bolt on the transmission into the block. The other runs from the battery negative terminal to the firewall a few inches away BUT the factory doesn't strip the paint from that grounding point so the main chassis ground current runs through a single 6mm bolt into a fricken nut welded to the firewall. When I pulled mine the threads were starting to get crusty and I can only assume the threads in the nut would be too. I cleaned the bolt and striped the paint from the firewall where the connector contacts it.
I'm also leary of the charging wiring. The alternator grounds through the mounting brackets and after a few years none of them are going to have clean surfaces. the B+ lead from the alternator also looks to be 6 ga and takes round about path back to the battery. It's not exactly what I would use to push 75A around. Since I just dropped in a stereo that could suck down an additional 130A on top of the normal current, I've changed the main chassis ground to 2 ga and I'll direct ground the alternator and upgrade the B+ once I find someone to rewire one for 100A output.

Steve

Originally posted by steve
1G's have two main grounding wires both look to be about 6 ga.
...
It's not exactly whay I would use to push 75A around. Since I just dropped in a stereo that could suck down an additional 130A on top of the normal current, The main chassis ground is now 2 ga and I'll direct ground the alternator and upgrade the B+ once I find someone to rewire one for 100A output. Steve

Click to expand...

Good stuff in there Steve. I do think the engine ground is more like a #2, a #6 would be enough for the Alt. at 80A. I can't remember and don't know where my yach design bible or my machinist handbook are. The info should be available on the Internet.

I've seen specs of 80A and a 120A alt. though it didn't specify year or models. My Caravan LE with dual air/heat uses a 120 which might be made to fit if you drill out the pivot bolt from 8mm to 10mm. It might also take a longer adjustment bracket to swing the frame below the water pump inlet. I have a spare 120A that I can take measurments if you are interested. You might luck out and find a bigger stator to jump from the 80A to 100A but you are still limited with the amount of air getting pumped through the frame since these jobbies have no fan. You could put a forced cold air duct into the back which might keep it cool enough. Still I'd opt for the larger design if you are running a 1000w amplifier for the radio. You might even find some police cruisers are running 150-160A units but they ain't gonna be cheap.

Cheers,
GTM

The only thing that will slow me down in getting the car back on the road are the throttle cables. It looks like Im going to have to buy them off the trader. Everything else seems pretty easy to come by. But I can't find the cables.

Great thread - good stuff about redoing factory grounds - here's a harness fire thread form DSMTALK - can't help but think poor grounding is related to this problem too...

FIRE HAZARD

The most amazing thing is that the bastards don't want to take responsibility for anything - if it's crankwalk or 1G catching on fire..
I just ran the car really hard all the way to the shop, checked the harness - the #### was hot as hell and the plastic wrap was all soft from the heat. The injectors harness is mounted dirrectly on the intake manifold, but it seems like it's the power transistor and the ignition coil harness that might cause the problem and its plastic wrap ignite first (and burn the fuel return line). Either relocating the coil and the transistor to the firewall (which would require custom spark plug wires) or protecting the harness with some fireproof sleeve might help. I think I'll do both - before the ##### burns to the ground...

The main harness. It splits on the passenger side of the intake manifold (and goes to the TB, O2 and coolant sensors), then it runs behind the intake manifold and goes to the injectors, power transistor and the coil (+ the knock sensor and A/C and part of it is attached to the firewall and goes to the FPS and the PCS). The spot where it seems to catch on fire is where the wiring from the power transistor, the coil and the injectors meet, the harness is some 3-4" off the firewall at that spot. Personally, I think it's the part of the wiring from the coil and the transistor that ignites (since it's less protected than the main harness) and most likely burns the soft vacuum line that goes to the fuel pressure regulator. Seems like the best protection might be firesleeving made by Talor (used for spark plug wires) that withstands long term exposure to 500' and comes in 5/16-7/8" ID ($9.69-12.99 /1'). Even if the harness ignites inside the sleeving, the fire wouldn't have enough oxygen to burn and wouldn't spread. I think that's what I'm going to do..

Just trying to point out which harness to check (not a 1G owner so...), here are two shots of the engine from a '90 Talon (thanks RRE).
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/...irewall-1g2.jpg
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/...firewall-1g.jpg
Can you see the harness in either of these? I suspect that's it to the left of the catchcan in the 1st photo (firewall-1g2.jpg)... ?

Here's a better shot of the area: http://www.vfaq.com/proj-pics/FPR/FPR-17.jpg

Also I bought a fire extinguisher today, would I have enough time to pop my trunk, get the extinguisher, and put out the fire as soon as I smelled something?

Lastly, I'm probably not going to insulate the wiring because it may make matters worse. What if insulating it (which is what shielding will do) actually makes heat build up more on the inside? Is the heat coming from the engine bay? Or from the harness wires itself due to improper wires size or poor connection?

I think what I will do is pull out the shielding around the drivers side pop up headlight to increase air circulation in the engine bay. I'm hoping this will lower

No I haven't seen it in 90's but I have in 91 on. Im not saying it cant happen so be careful.
As far as time. no time. first time it happened to me the first sign was belt squealing (guess the heat caused slack) then I smelled coolant. from there I thought great im overheating. but the mustang I raced comes up from behind screaming and pointing to the bottom of the car. Look in the rear view and see flaming chunks of my car. step on the breaks. no breaks. so im down shifting and pulling the e break to stop.
get out, pop the hood. It looked like the pits of hell. The extinguisher did NOTHING to tame the fire. I just had to close the hood and watch her burn to the ground.
the whole story is on here somewhere if you guys want me to find it.

engine bay temps to the effected area.

here is a link for the tape taboo is referring to (from www.summitracing.com) this link here is thermo tec fire tape (what im going to order i think). i dont want my 1g going a blaze!!

http://store.summitracing.com/defau...=13&s=131

here is the link with all types of fire retarding products from summit.

http://store.summitracing.com/defau...=13&s=131

hey taboo let me know how yours comes out when you do it. if i get mine done ill post some pics when its finished (and when i find the exact part i need to fire proof)

I've found out an interesting fact: 3K VR4s cought on fire indicate the fire originated in exactly the same (ignition coil/power transistor) area as on our cars (although 3K VRs have the coil and transistor on the opposite side - by the battery). One might conclude it's a ignition coil or power transistor failure/malfunction causing the harness to overheat (due to greatly increased resistance when grounded) to the point where it actually ignite. Incorporating a fuse to the ignition coil/power transistor circuit and/or thermosleeving the harness might be aa effective solution to the problem.

Yes, that's exactly where the fire seems to originate (even on 3K VR4s). In my opinion, it's the coil and power transistor harness (split off the main harness) that tends to ignite - due to its relatively soft plastic sleeve. We have a spare harness and a few coils in the shop and I could possibly try to simulate the wiring overload to see what happens. From what AWDkitkat said, the car seems to start running like crap right before it catches on fire - which might be possibly caused by one of the coild shorting out and the car running on just two cylinders. I'll also study the factory circuit, since the fuse-based protection seems to be the best solution (rather than counting on the thermosleeving containing the fire inside and ending up with severely damaged harness).

Originally posted by BUCK
Great thread - good stuff about redoing factory grounds - here's a harness fire thread form DSMTALK - can't help but think poor grounding is related to this problem too...

Click to expand...

It sure sounds like it could be related though I did not read everything. Too many possibilities to immediately grasp why this should be happening.

This is a general statement and not directed or weighted more at DSM's than any other product.
Without a doubt the single greatest problem I'v encountered are the test / check circuits which will run positve current one moment and negative current the next as components are tested and cycled for operation. I can't help but observe that opportunities for secondary grounds closer to the components would reduce the potential for fires should an overload occur. Some of this has to do with the fact it's mounted on plastic and thus insulated requires grounds at other locations. When adding components great care must be observed that these conditional grounds don't actually have positive current at some time in their cycles. For this reason it's a lot safer to add your own ground rather than the first thing that comes along.

Cheers,
GTM

i work at www.shinewire.com , they allowed me to fabricate ground all new grounds, i used air core flat copper nickle plated copper cables, the cabe comes from a company called instron and is used in a high voltage/current jewlery arc welder. very good stuff. the design allows heat to escape from the cabe, it equals out to about 4 gauge. ill let you know how they work out, and post pics. ive seen better than stock ground wires at summit, but they are pricey for what they are. the ones i made would take them to town.

when i was doing my head install, i was discusted with the pitiful stock grounds, they are tiny. and when you start adding tons of electronics and strereo stuff, that cannot be good.