The Central Hub for DSM Community and Information

For 1990-1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, Plymouth Laser, and Galant VR-4 Owners. This is where the DSM platform history is documented and archived. Log in to help us in our mission, and to remove most ads from the browsing experience.

Post a Question

9 month long problem - no start

Please Support STM Tuned

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

scorpion66

scorpion66

15+ Year Contributor
47
0
Nov 9, 2006
Wichita Falls, Texas
I have spent over 9 months trying to figure out whats wrong with this car, and I'm at my wits end. One of my mechanic friends refuses to help anymore and just wants me to give up, and the other is agitated and thinks I should put it in a shop. I'm really close to doing that, but before I do, I wanted to run this by you all and see if anyone had any ideas.

I'll try to summarize with bullet notes at the bottom incase ya dont feel like reading a book.

Details:
1996 GS Eclipse, 128k miles, all stock except air intake and a msd ignition pack.
recently replaced timing belt and waterpump


Beginning:
Was driving along a highway and caught a glimpse of the battery light flickering a couple times on the dash, then it stopped. Car didn't seem to have any problems. I made a stop, shut the car down, and about 5 minutes later when I got back in the car and went to start, it seemed to fight a little bit. It did start after the second or third try, I didn't really think anything of it, except maybe that the battery was old and needed to be replaced, since there wasnt really any funny noises or anything.
I drove the car home, parked it and went inside. Half an hour later I came out to take the car to autozone to have the batt checked and possiby replaced if need be. Went to turn the car on, but no go. It would turn over again and again, but never actually start.
It didn't sound like it was cranking wildly or anything.
I figured I'd take the battery in with my other car and have it checked after a couple more tries. Found out the battery was shot. They said they didn't know how it was even turning the car over. I got a new batt, took it home, and just for the hell of it, popped it in and tried it one more time. Nothing. It turned over just like before but the car didnt start.
I did notice at this point that the check engine light did NOT come on with the rest of the dummy lights when I turn the key to the on position. I even tried to get a code from it by turning the key on and off. Nothing. I know the CEL was working the day before. I pulled the dash out real quick and checked the CEL bulb, it was fine, but just to be sure I swapped it with a bulb that was definately working. replaced everything and checked again. Still no CEL.
I popped the hood and checked the connections to the ECU, they all seemed fine.




After talking with a couple people over the span of months, this is what I have done so far:
Had the angel positioning sensor and coilpack tested - both ok. Replaced the ECU. Replaced the plugs and wires during all this after noticing a couple cracks in the old wires. (yes they are gapped correctly)




I had a friend come over at one point and give me a hand, he said he checked for spark and it was getting spark. He also said he checked for pressure in the fuel rail and it seemed fine.

I went ahead and put the new ecu in, and still nothing, not even a CEL. I went and checked for spark, I don't know if maybe I did it wrong, but I didn't see it sparking.
There was however pressure in the fuel rail.

I spoke with another friend and he said that while checking all those things is surely helpful, he doubts I will find the problem there. He basically said that because there is no start-up CEL that there is likely no communication with the ECU. He couldnt think of anything specifically that would prevent it other than the ECU not getting the power and grounds it needs.
He suggested checking the entire 12v system, especially any grounds near the ECU.
Thats a pretty large task though, especially for me not having any wiring diagrams. I really dont want to be blindly poking around in there and mess anything else up in the process.



Summary:
- 1996 GS Eclipse, 128k miles
- stock except air intake and a msd ignition pack
- recently replaced timing belt and waterpump
- new plugs and wires
- fuel pressure - ok
- Won't start, but turns over fine (not wildly spinning though)
- No Check Engine Light at startup
- No CEL codes
- Checked CEL bulb and swapped with working bulb - no effect
- Checked angel positioning sensor and coilpack - both checked out ok
- Replaced ECU - no effect
- Can not determine that there is spark (need help here)
- Believe that the problem resides in ECU wiring (need help here)


Aside from the suggestion to check the wiring, I am completely out of ideas. And I fear I may have to put the car into a shop, and pray that they don't take me for every penny I have. I can't stand putting a car in for work when I don't have an idea of what the problem is. Do any of you guys have any thoughts, suggestions, or even questions? Maybe theres something I missed?
Keep in mind I am not a mechanic, so be gentle;) Thanks for all your time.
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
To test spark, take out any spark plug (doesn't matter which one). Put the spark plug back in the spark plug wire boot. Using some object (like pliers) so that you are not physically touching the spark plug, wire, or the engine at all. You can use pliers to hold the boot. Touch the spark plug to the engine block or any other good ground. Also make sure that were you are grounding is NO WHERE NEAR THE SPARK PLUG WELL that you pulled it from. The exhaust manifold or engine hoist point should do just fine. Have a friend crank the engine a few times. You should see a spark, the darker it is, the easier it is to see. When he is done. Also smell the spark plugs well, you should smell gas. If you got spark and you got gas (provided the gas is good). Then you problem lies in air flow control or compression.
 
Upvote0
laserspeeddemon said:
To test spark, take out any spark plug (doesn't matter which one). Put the spark plug back in the spark plug wire boot. Using some object (like pliers) so that you are not physically touching the spark plug, wire, or the engine at all. You can use pliers to hold the boot. Touch the spark plug to the engine block or any other good ground. Also make sure that were you are grounding is NO WHERE NEAR THE SPARK PLUG WELL that you pulled it from. The exhaust manifold or engine hoist point should do just fine. Have a friend crank the engine a few times. You should see a spark, the darker it is, the easier it is to see. When he is done. Also smell the spark plugs well, you should smell gas. If you got spark and you got gas (provided the gas is good). Then you problem lies in air flow control or compression.
Click to expand...


Plan on doing this in a bit, so thanks in advance.

Assuming there is no spark. Where do I go/check next?
 
Upvote0
Say you find that there is no spark. Find someone with a running 2g N/T (should be easy considering the numbr of turbo vs N/T).

One part at a time swa[ your igntion components on his/yours car. The point is not to get yours to work, but to get his to not work. Since yours may have more then points of failure. I don't know enough about N/T 2gs, so I can only go so far.

If you do have spark... compression check.
 
Upvote0
gonna have to wait to spark check till tomorrow, got a big storm rolling in.

thanks for the info, will definately reply here as I progress.
 
Upvote0
Just out of curiosity did you try to start the car with starting fluid. If it didn't start then you definitately know its a spark problem. If it did it would be a injector problem, i had the same problem with my 95 gsx i tried everything and nothing would work finally i took my injectors out blew threw them with a pressure hose (don't ask just i was running out of options) took a half a cup of gas dumped it in the intake pipe screwed it shut got mad coz gas was coming out smic ran in to the car turned that mug on and it started slowly i stepped on the gas peddle like it was a deadly spider and what do you know vroom baby.

Anyway the moral of the story is some problems are as simplier than they look.
 
Upvote0
Afroclipse said:
Just out of curiosity did you try to start the car with starting fluid. If it didn't start then you definitately know its a spark problem. If it did it would be a injector problem, i had the same problem with my 95 gsx i tried everything and nothing would work finally i took my injectors out blew threw them with a pressure hose (don't ask just i was running out of options) took a half a cup of gas dumped it in the intake pipe screwed it shut got mad coz gas was coming out smic ran in to the car turned that mug on and it started slowly i stepped on the gas peddle like it was a deadly spider and what do you know vroom baby.

Anyway the moral of the story is some problems are as simplier than they look.
Click to expand...


Sounds like a beautiful thing if it were that simple, but this is definately not a fuel problem. Everything is pointing to electrical. Though I do wish you were right.

I managed to test for spark inbetween rain sessions, there is no spark, and I can smell gas in the well.

The CAS works, the coilpack tested fine, the ECU is fine. The plugs and wires are brand new and plugs are gapped correctly.
But even still, the fact that there is no check engine light at startup leads me to believe that the ECU is not getting power, or is unable to communicate. Am I right in assuming this? That would prevent there form being any spark, correct?

If thats the case I guess my next step is to check the power in and ground wires to the ECU, and possibly the wire from ecu to ignition? Possibly the harness partially melted?
All this sound about right? am I missing anything?

Anyone have a diagram of the ECU pin out for a 96 GS eclipse?

also, I know better than to touch the ecu itself with a tester for fear of frying something, but it would be ok to test the current on the harness, 12v to ground correct?


The only other question is, can anyone think of anything else that would cause all of the following:
Normal turn over but no start
no spark
no CEL dummy light at startup

Maybe a fail safe? a sensor? anything?
 
Upvote0
Did you check both Cam and Crank angle sensors, usually they send the signal to the ECU to get it to spark.
The Crank sensor is on the lower back side of the engine close to the timing belt above the oil filter
The Cam sensor is on the right side of the head.

Also check your ASD relay its on the drivers side, underneath the hood. The fuel pump relay is on the far left, and the ASD is the one just to the right of that.
 
Upvote0
Oneavenger said:
Did you check both Cam and Crank angle sensors, usually they send the signal to the ECU to get it to spark.
The Crank sensor is on the lower back side of the engine close to the timing belt above the oil filter
The Cam sensor is on the right side of the head.

Also check your ASD relay its on the drivers side, underneath the hood. The fuel pump relay is on the far left, and the ASD is the one just to the right of that.
Click to expand...

Checked the crank sensor and the cam sensor, both were fine.

The fuel pump relay, if the fuel pumps working and I have fuel pressure in the rail, that would be fine wouldnt it?

The ASD relay I haven't checked. Would that cause a no CEL startup?
 
Upvote0
Just to be safe, I changed out both the ASD and the FP relays, still nothing. keep the suggestions coming.




Also, I read somewhere that some imports require the ECU to recieve 11v before it powers up. This is a chrysler engine/ecu so that wouldn't apply I assume. BUT just for ha-ha's, how would I test the voltage reaching the ECU to make sure it is in fact recieving the proper voltage?

And again, does anyone have the pinout diagram for the 96 gs eclipse ecu?
 
Upvote0
Still no solution for this one.:beatentodeath:

I got an email from another website, someone suggested I check something called an ICM.
I assume that is the Ignition control module?

Next question: isn't an ICM on the 96 eclipse the same thing as the coilpack?


Anyone else have any suggestions?
 
Upvote0
Hey man the best suggestion I have for you is go through each fuse box extremely througly. The one under the hood sounds like the one where there is a blown fuse. In my 420A Eclipse there is a fuse that goes directly to the ECU. Its a big fuse. Just check them all. A simple fuse can cause the worst problems man. Good luck man. :dsm:
 
Upvote0
Don't stray from the spark issue. I don't the ECU is the problem. We need to find a Chilitons or Haynes for the 2g N/T ignition wiring diagram. In the 1gs, the Ignition Module is made of two components. The Igntion packs and the tranistor. The Packs are easy to find, they have the spark plugs coming out of them. the transistor will either have a harness to connect to the module or connect via wires (which would still utilize a harness).

See if you can find it. I'm don't know the 420A as well, so I don't know exactly where it is.
 
Upvote0
I suggest starting with the fuses. That's the easiest thing here.

Now, you said you're getting spark. Have you checked all 4 plugs? When my ingition went bad I got spark on two cylinders, but the other two I did not (bad coils on two cylinders, although mine was a 4G63).

Now, the ICM is seperate from the coil pack, IIRC. It's been over a year since I've had my 2GNT, so I can't recall the location (and DSM3D is down).

This is what the ICM should look like though.
You must be logged in to view this image or video.


The ICM is like the transistor unit on the 4G63's. It tells the coils when to fire. I strongly suggest testing this. Off the top of my head, I don't know which pins to test, nor their values, but a search should produce some results.
 
Upvote0
laserspeeddemon said:
The way I test things is taking a part of a running car and putting my part on the other car. If the other car won't start (and my does) then I know that is the problem.
Click to expand...

I really appreciate the things you've helped me here with lately, and I mean no disrespect; but I have to disagree here. My '91 Talon was running fine, until the transmission crapped out. The car sat for a few months. When I hooked the battery back up, the car wouldn't start. The ECU had gone bad, but somehow the part that went bad, sent a surge throughout my car. This in turn, fried my SAFC, Ingition coils, transistor pack, and alternator.

Had I swapped things out one at a time, it would have taken me forever (think of all the combinations of swapped parts until I got it right). A bit of talking on the boards, and lots of time, I was able to identify bad parts one at a time. I had nowhere to really begin looking on my car, as it had been running before.

The things a car needs to start (the basics): fuel, spark, and air.
He's already stated that he has fuel pressure.
We assume that he's getting air (it's a non-turbo with no MAF, just an AIT; even if that's bad, it'll still run)
Now, we're assuming from what he's said, that there is spark.

There's more to it than just spark though. If the coils go bad, they may still spark, just not at the right times or with enough force. I say let's start by checking the fuses, and then move onto the coil pack and transistor pack/ICM.

That's my $.02
 
Upvote0
Yours is one of extreme cases, yes it would have taken a long time, but if done right is an excellent way to diagnois problem, even multiple problems. Here is something I should have mentioned before, which may clear a few things up.

If you find a part fails on this test, meaning it makes the working donor car stop working, DO NOT TAKE IT OFF THE DONOR CAR! Find the part in question some other way, if you car doesn't work still, then find the next part that fails, and so on. This way, you can check the functionality of ALOT of parts, but you can only do it one at a time. This method is more effective on less complex parts, for example a relay would be ok, but the head would not. More tests would be needed to determine if there was a problem with the head (namely compression).

I do not find your statment disrespectful in anyway. One great thing about the DSM community is that we have a great desire to share knowledge, where one method doesn't work another DSMers method might. This is simply my own method. It was worked many times in the past.

My method I found very useful. My wife's 93 Eclipse GS was having problems starting. the Eclipse had a complete 6-bolt power train conversion from a 90 DSM, even the wiring harness were pulled and installed in the 93. When the car start acting up, I replaced the usual suspect. After those were eliminated as the source of failure I used my 90 Talon as a donor car. One part at a time, I pulled it off the Talon and put it on to the Eclipse. I also put the part from the Eclipse onto the Talon. If the Talon started, then I knew the part was good, I would then swap it back. In the end I narrowed the problem down to a single wire which went into the starter/charger wiring harness. I simply bypassed it with the installation of a push-button starter. Keep in mind that the problem was NOT spark, fuel, are even air/compression. It was a starter wiring problem and as such would not likely be the soure of failure here.
 
Upvote0
I completely understand what you're saying, and in theory it is an excellent way to diagnose problems. Though in my situation, it wasn't. At the time and to my knowledge, there were no running 1G Turbo DSM's in the Rocky Mount area. When I bought mine, there were only two. Mine being one, another being the one I just bought. There was one in the process of being put together, to my knowledge, it is currently the only running one.
Until next year.

I have a very helpful friend on another site, who has a really in-depth shop manual (software version) and it gives him tests for most of these sensors. That's the only reason I ever got mine to start again.


To relate to the problem you stated in your previous post, nothing was missing for your car to run. Though it never turned over (I'm assuming), that would be a different issue. Glad you got it solved though.

Edit: I used to be a PC tech. The way we worked if we couldn't figure something out was, strip the unit down to its basic parts, and build it back up piece by piece. Then you will be able to determine the cause of failure.
 
Upvote0
I once travelled to Northern MD to help someone I never met to help him with a no-start. We got down to the CAS and ECU. Both of those turned my car into a no start situation. He replaced them and the car started fine. To bad you ain't got nobody like me around.
 
Upvote0
hm... I might call upon your assistance when I get ready to reassemble my AWD.

I had people who helped point me in the right direction, but none willing to come on sight (or knew where I lived for that matter, it's in the country). So, my help was limited, to say the least. Not to mention how bad the wiring is on the FWD, and the ECT no longer has wires going to it (but it used to start right up).
 
Upvote0
Couple of the replies here went along with the first thing I said, about a friend testing it for me and saying there was spark. I later went out and checked again after talking with laser. There is NO spark, on any of the 4.


scorpion66 said:
Sounds like a beautiful thing if it were that simple, but this is definately not a fuel problem. Everything is pointing to electrical. Though I do wish you were right.

I managed to test for spark inbetween rain sessions, there is no spark, and I can smell gas in the well.
Click to expand...



I dunno why I let him tell me that without seeing it for myself, but needless to say, I won't be letting him work under my hood again any time soon. LoL. Anyway, back on track.

The ICM, I looked through every page of my Haynes Manual, I can't find a single reference to an ICM. In a little bit when I put the baby down for a nap I'll go outside and take a look-see for it. Anyone know where this beast is? And thanks Mikelb, the picture will help in tracking it down.


No one has really said anything about the non-existant check engine light at startup. That kinda bothers me because I have a feeling whatever is causing that CEL not to light up at startup is the same thing causing the car not to start. I could be completely wrong, and I am willing to pursue almost any idea you guys throw at me. Even if it means rechecking some of the stuff again, but I sure would feel a lot better if someone could come up with some things that could cause the CEL not to light at startup for me to check also.

As for the fuses, I will set aside time to recheck all the fuses again tomorrow, as well as pull the box off its mount to check all the wiring beneath thoroughly.

Laser: I really wish I knew someone with a 2g that would let me test parts on. But I'm fairly new to texas, and dont have a whole lot of friends here yet. Car has been out of comission for almost half the time I have been here. Hard to meet anyone when ya got no ride to take to the local meets.

I'd really love to fix this without putting the car in a shop if at all possible. But to be realistic, I'm gonna set a time limit on it. I've already been messing with her for 9+ months now. When my tax return check comes in, shes going into the local shop, and I'll have to pray that they don't take me for an arm and a leg. That could be anywhere from a week to 4 weeks, knowing the US government. So if ya guys got any ideas, even if they seem far fetched, pop em on here. The worst that can happen is it not fix the problem. I'm currently not working, so I usually have a ton of time to check things on the car. :thumb:
 
Upvote0
BTW guys, thanks for all the help you have already offered. If I could getcha all into the same bar, I'd buy ya all a couple rounds. Great to have friendly people to talk to.
 
Upvote0
ok, new info for the car. Possibly tracked down the problem, need some input before I start tearing all of the wiring harness apart.

I used my multimeter to test the ecu plug ends of the harness. I was under the impression that there should be 1 constant 12v, and 1-2 12v with the key in the on position. Sound about right?

Well try this: I tested every single wire, about 75% of them read 12v and 4-5 of them read between 8-9v

My assumption is that somewhere along the harness, the wires are melted together, a 12v connected to a bunch of sensor wires that shouldnt have any juice. this most likely fried the original ECU, or at the very least is causing the no start. Sound reasonable?



IF I go out there and start checking and DO find that the harness is melted together, what other damage, if any can I expect? possibly fried sensors? damaged engine components? obviously I'd need to repair or replace the harness. What kinda price can I be expecting to replace it? or better yet, anyone have a harness on a parts car thats not hacked to pieces?
 
Upvote0
Add Value - Be Respectful - No Trolling - No Misinformation - Participate Often!

Similar threads

pur97tsifwd
  • Question
No start problem
Replies
1
Views
554
turbo24
cj062989
  • Question
No-start problem
Replies
4
Views
910
LiquidX
LiquidX
laser90
  • Question
No start problem
Replies
4
Views
720
laser90
laser90
bunkaking16
  • Question
No Start Problem
Replies
6
Views
798
bunkaking16
bunkaking16
  • Question
No start problem
Replies
5
Views
641
selmerguy
Boosted Fabrication
ECM Tuning
ExtremePSI
FIBA Motorsport
Fuel Injector Clinic
Innovation Products
Jacks Transmissions
JNZ Tuning
Kiggly Racing
Morrison Fabrications
Rix Racing
RockAuto
STM Tuned
Support Vendors who Support the DSM Community

Latest posts

Build Thread Updates

Vendor Updates

Latest Classifieds

Back
Top