new engine broken in wrong QUICK REPLY

1gcrazy · Dec 15, 2006

Ok so i'm buying this guys shortblock. Its bored 20 over with a Wiseco/Eagle combo and Federal Mogul bearings, all arp, oil pump and balance shafts removed. Stock crank. He says a Mitsu Tech built it back in Texas where hes from. Motors got right at 1762 miles on it. All for 1000 shipped.
He's leaving for Iraq tomorrow and I need to know whether this is cool very very quickly.
He told me the engine made 422 at 26psi on pump gas. I asked him when the dyno was done and he said right at about 200 miles...
I was a bit ok with it but I can't tell whether its because i want to get my car running or not.
He told me that the tech who built it says the engine needed to be broken in the way it was meant to be driven daily. I assume he drove it like he stole it.
So basically in my mind is i'm buying a built motor for a grand shipped that was hardly broken in, maybe right maybe wrong....
I believe we're going through paypal so if its messed up i can always recourse.
WOULD YOU BUY IT?

Dan97gst · Dec 15, 2006

I think if it was me I would pass. I would say that doing a dyno at only 200 miles is way to soon on a newly built motor. The price is def. a plus, but maybe it is so low for a reason. Sounds to me like it has been ragged out all ready.

1gcrazy · Dec 15, 2006

Well what are the downsides of the engine? I mean if it made 422hp and didn't break...?

syclone · Dec 15, 2006

my question would be why did he pull out a nearly new well built engine making over 400 hp?

andymoraitis · Dec 15, 2006

Actually, it's highly recommended to break in motors with ZERO miles on the dyno. For street break-ins, hard acceleration and deceleration under boost are the best way to seat the rings. I broke my motor in that way as do many of the members of this site. Easy break-ins are great if you like blowby. Have a read for yourself:

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

To address your issue as to whether you should buy the motor, I'd want to see it run before buying. I'd pass but that's just me.

Good luck,

Andy

95AWD6Bolt · Dec 15, 2006

I was once told that you should break it in as your going to drive it every day. Of course this was for big block chevy engines but i dont see why the same wouldnt apply here.

Pirrofab · Dec 15, 2006

yes u have to take it easy on the engine however it is also recommended to drive at varying rpms under varying load to seat the rings.if u could hear it run it would be alot better for peice of mind... but if its a full engine for that price i would go for it... the turbo and im sure some of the parts can land u your money back if something is a miss (assuming its an upgraded turbo as hes running 26psi??) does he have a copy of the dynosheet??motors should not be thrashed on though until after 500- 1500 miles... some new car break in periods require 1000 miles

andymoraitis · Dec 15, 2006

BleedingSilver said:
yes u have to take it easy on the engine however it is also recommended to drive at varying rpms under varying load to seat the rings.if u could hear it run it would be alot better for peice of mind... but if its a full engine for that price i would go for it... the turbo and im sure some of the parts can land u your money back if something is a miss (assuming its an upgraded turbo as hes running 26psi??) does he have a copy of the dynosheet??motors should not be thrashed on though until after 500- 1500 miles... some new car break in periods require 1000 miles

Horse hockey. If you want blowby go ahead and break it in easy. If you want your motor to seat the rings quickly, you break it in with hard acceleration and deceleration under moderate boost in the first 30 miles.

2gAWDTalon · Dec 15, 2006

Dont forget how importand it is to change the oil after those first 30 miles! And dont use synthetic when your breaking it in. Andy, I also use the
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm theory. You can hear the motor change sound when the rings start to seat.
Taken from the Moto Mans site...

Several factors make the older information on break-in obsolete.

The biggest factor is that engine manufacturers now use a much finer honing pattern in the cylinders than they once did. This in turn changes the break-in requirements, because as you're about to learn, the window of opportunity for achieving an exceptional ring seal is much smaller with
newer engines than it was with the older "rough honed" engines.

I broke my freshly built 6 bolt in on 10 psi with lots of acceleration and deacceleration and in boost, boost helps seat the rings. Chaged the oil right around 30 miles to get any material out. I was running 20+ pounds of boost on my SCM5031e shorly there after. Motor is a good motor.

adrian2627 · Dec 15, 2006

the metals they use today with rings (chrome moly, etc.) are alot different nowadays. like andy said, break it in hard for the rings to seat and you'll be good. I broke-in my built 7 bolt back then and all i got from it were blow-bys and such.

lenny 15 · Dec 15, 2006

what about the turbo, does this break in method hurt the turbo?

evilredGS · Dec 15, 2006

Before I totaled my 96 (hit a wandering stray horse in the middle of the night) I would call one of my cop friends and use the highway as a test track. 10 miles of mostly straight beautiful 4 lane pavement.. virtually zero traffic after about midnight.

It was great.

As for your usage, my grandpa has used our local airport's runway on occasion (small airport). Most small "private" airports wont care as long as you respect the runway.

Lunch_Box · Dec 15, 2006

I agree with the moto tune method but have a question. With the material rings are made from doesn't it make it a lot easier to seat the rings properly?

andymoraitis · Dec 15, 2006

Lunch_Box said:
I agree with the moto tune method but have a question. With the material rings are made from doesn't it make it a lot easier to seat the rings properly?

Sure, that's why the first 30 miles manage to take care of almost 85-90% of the seating process. The rest happens in the next 1000 or so miles although my compression had pretty much peaked at about 1500 miles. At that point I switched to synthetic and it went up just a hair more.

Lenny: There's always a chance that shavings from the motor could be fed through the turbo. I broke my stroker in with the turbo I was running and it did nothing to it, but if I was running something high dollar I would have probably picked up a spare turbo to run just for the first few hundred miles. Some people insist that you need to use a different turbo and some don't. Experience varies so it's really tough to call.

1gcrazy · Dec 15, 2006

Well i appreciate the chime in from the wisemen. That makes up my mind on whether I want it or not. But now the problem is TIME. He's leaving for Iraq in like 22 hours and I havn't sent any cash from paypal...
The only other condition i'm worried about NOW is the amount of boost he ran it at...I guess its fine. Its either this shortblock today or this guys selling another shortblock on RMDSM but he wont answer his pm's and i'm afraid it might be sold.

92awddsm · Dec 15, 2006

Lunch_Box said:
I agree with the moto tune method but have a question. With the material rings are made from doesn't it make it a lot easier to seat the rings properly?

Actually, todays rings are thinner and have a much harder face than those of yesteryear so seating them is not as easy. With a mild break in, chances are the rings will never seat completely.

Just for clarification, most big engine builders dyno their engines before they ever go out the door. During the dyno, the engine is broken in and tuned so the consumer doesnt have to deal with it. And something else to consider, how many all out drag cars have you ever seen putting around while breaking in an engine? Probably none because most of them are nowhere close to being street legal. (Imagination kicks in) Could you imagine pulling up to a light beside John Force and smoking him because he is breaking in his engine? :tease:

shaunman1979 · Dec 15, 2006

When I built my 548 CI Stroker for my pro street Charger, the only break in time I had on that was about an hour or so of running so I could tune the motor. That thing only runs at WOT. Given its a bracket motor and wont last me forever but I have had no problems with it yet. I just hope for a few good seasons, then onto a new motor.

eric91gst · Dec 15, 2006

andymoraitis said:
Horse hockey. If you want blowby go ahead and break it in easy. If you want your motor to seat the rings quickly, you break it in with hard acceleration and deceleration under moderate boost in the first 30 miles.

- Hey andy, I was just wondering for how long did you warm your car up and how many times you did this before taking it out to break it in hard for the first initial drive?
- didnt mean to hijack this guys thread.
-thanks

1gcrazy · Dec 15, 2006

eric91gst said:
didnt mean to hijack this guys thread.
-thanks

YOU JERK!!

haha Just kiddin
Good question though.

92awddsm · Dec 15, 2006

Get it up to full operating temp, set ignition timing, and adjust biss if needed. Now, change the oil and filter, bring back up to full operating temp, the go drive it. After about 100 miles of moderate to hard driving, bring it back, change the oil and filter again, then go have fun. Switch to synthetic if you wish after 1k miles.

dsmfa9nutter · Dec 15, 2006

Short bursts of "give'er hell" and make those rings seat. However I went to synthetic within 200 miles. No need to run regular oil for very long, most new engines run synthetic from day one. This was during breakin on my cutlass with a 455 big block, mobil 1 synthetic 10w-30+mobil 1 filter and not one oil related problem so far, few thousand miles down, millions to go. I suggest changing the filter+oil at 5 mile, 50 mile, 100 mile, and 200 mile markers, then the 3000 mile OR 3 month interval. I always end up changing at 3 months just because I don't drive any car I own very far. HAVE TO use a mobil 1 oil filter, there's only 1 other equal to it (K&N), everything else is cardboard in a can. :notgood:

92awddsm · Dec 15, 2006

dsmfa9nutter said:
. No need to run regular oil for very long, most new engines run synthetic from day one. This was during breakin on my cutlass with a 455 big block, mobil 1 synthetic 10w-30+mobil 1 filter and not one oil related problem so far, few thousand miles down, millions to go.

You are comparing apples to oranges here. The olds engine uses high tension thick rings which will seat at the blink of an eye. The 4g63 uses a low tension, thin ring package which is very hard to seat. To break it down a little more, your engine uses a top and second compression ring which are thicker that the oil control ring in the 4g63. Using synthetic early will reduce the chances of the ring seating fully.

As for engines using synthetic from day one, have you ever been into one of these engines? I have torn down a 97 vette ls1 and an evo VIII engine(to name a couple), both with synthetic, and both with thin, low tension rings and neither ever seated fully. From my professional experience, I would never run any synthetic oil in a fresh engine. Even most oil manufacturers do not recommend synthetic oils in an engine for the first 1k miles. This became very obvious when I spent some time doing r&d for the Ethyl Corporation. For those that dont know, the Ethyl corporation is a company that produces several of the oil and fuel additives that are on the market today.

eric91gst · Dec 16, 2006

one last question before I piss off 1gcrazy. What specific brand of non-synthetic oil and filter did you guys use to break in your engines before switching to synthetic?
-thanks

andymoraitis · Dec 16, 2006

Keith very very smart. When a former professional machinist opens his mouth it's a good idea to listen.

Thanks for the education and for explaining the difference in todays ring material harness pal.

zerocoolok · Dec 16, 2006

taken from Royal Purple:

Since we are talking so much about the power potential of synthetic lubricants, we decided to find out Royal Purple's stance on some longstanding questions about its products. We spoke with Patrick Burris, Royal Purple's motorsports marketing coordinator.

Sport Truck - Why do engine builders commonly tell us not to break in a new motor using synthetic motor oil?

Patrick Burris - To allow for proper break-in of the engine, Royal Purple recommends waiting until the manufacturer's first scheduled oil change or a minimum of 2,000 miles in new gasoline engines. Allow 8,000 to 10,0000 miles before using Royal Purple in diesel engines. Royal Purple's high film strength will not allow the piston rings to scuff the cylinder walls. Until the piston rings form a seal in the cylinder, the engine will consume oil and not perform as well as it should.

Sport Truck - How come many drivetrain shops recommend not putting synthetic fluid into the differential?

Patrick Burris - I don't know for sure, but it is most likely they had some differential failures when synthetic lubricants first came out. With today's test standards and additive technology, this should not happen as long as the correct viscosity and GL rating is used. Fact is, a properly formulated gear oil will protect the gearset whether the base oil is mineral or synthetic. Nowadays, GM and Ford trucks and performance rear-wheel-drive cars come factory-filled with synthetic gear oil.

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new engine broken in wrong QUICK REPLY

1gcrazy

Dan97gst

1gcrazy

syclone

andymoraitis

95AWD6Bolt

Pirrofab

andymoraitis

2gAWDTalon

adrian2627

lenny 15

evilredGS

Lunch_Box

andymoraitis

1gcrazy

92awddsm

shaunman1979

eric91gst

1gcrazy

92awddsm

dsmfa9nutter

92awddsm

eric91gst

andymoraitis

zerocoolok

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