Ok guys, I need some real experience here. No bench tuners please. This is my 3rd time on the dyno with this car. I wasn't that dissapointed by the performance actually. It works out to about 317tq and 290hp at the crank. Since it is stock heads and an EVO III turbo that was on a car rated at 266hp, I'd say it is right where it should be. The car is used for road/race and is going to Watkins Glen first second week in May! I've got to straighten this out !

The pink lines are after a little "leaning" out. Boost was also raised as shown.

The data NOT attached, is that I'm getting knock at 5100+

93 octane. Here is the timing:

3960rpm 8.5adv
4192rpm 8.5adv
4512rpm 9.0adv
4816rpm 9.0adv
5104rpm 10.0adv
5384rpm 8.0adv (knock gauge by dsmlink goes to 5 knock sum)
5680rpm 10.0adv
5932rpm 10.5adv (knock sum progresses to 10 by ~6300rpm)
6200rpm 11.5adv
6432rpm 11.5adv
6632rpm 12.0adv (chip is set for 16deg max at wot, so I'm being retarded by 4deg)

I pulled the plugs after the runs attached. White! starting on #4, and getting whiter to #1. We all know #1 is the leanest....And since I knew I had detonation this wasn't a surprise.
So #1 is knocking. WHY ?
The KNOCK occurred regardless of fuel. Even with the PIG rich blue line AF and low boost (17psi), it stilled knocked. It isn't "phantom" because it is only @ WOT above ~5100rpm. Also you can see the boost is falling off, even when turned up !?
The temps were COLD, and it also knocked on the way home in below freezing temps!

What I did:
1.) As mentioned above, pulled the NGK BPR6EKN plugs. White as described above. Replaced with BPR7EIX, which is the NGK Iridium plug replacement for the Evo MR (one colder). Made sense to me. Thought the plugs could be too hot, causing detontation. NO CHANGE.

2.) Leak tested the entire intake system to 30psi. NO LEAKS.

3.) Then I got real clever and thought... What would cause my boost to fall off, and keep too much heat in the combustion chamber ? A PLUGGED CAT. I took the CATCO stainless cat off, and it is just fine, you can even see light through it, and no holes are plugged. After the cat, it is 3" of clear sailing to the tailpipe. I don't think this could be causing too much backpressure ? (answer please!)

So if it isn't plugs, or intake leak, or exhaust, then it must be that #1, and #2 are just not getting enough fuel. This I can believe.... So... I have a 190lph pump, and greddy 660's in there.

If it is #1, and #2 starving, do I

1.) Do the pump wire mod
2.) New fuel rail
3.) B&M fuel pressure regulator
4.) Other ?

Hope someone can help me, and maybe I'll help someone else with the same problem.

Mods:

Autometer - bezel, a-pillar, oil temp, pressure, boost, EGT. Powerstop cross-drilled rotors. Apexi Air Filter. Hahn Upper IC Piping. 1G BOV. Yonaka Bar/Plate Front Mount intercooler. Custom aluminum intercooler ducting. 3" SS Turboback (RNR/VRSEXHAUST) with Dynomax SS muffler SS Catco Cat . AFC-II. SBR MBR. Evo III 16g Turbo - Ported. 190lph. ACT 2100, XACT. Ported exhaust manifold. MSD 8.5mm. Evo external oil housing with Earls cooler. Pocketlogger, dsmchips ecu, Quaife!!! Dejon 1g BOV mod. Greddy 660cc.

Stage II SlowBoy Race Engine Serial # SBR 208 rated at 600hp
- Ross 8.5:1 forged pistons
- Eagle forged rods
- Clevite main/rod bearings
- ARP head/rod bolts
- Cometic head gasket
- Blocked oil squirters


-Jaraxle

Here we go. Pink is after some tuning obviously !

I ran into simlar problems before the 2.0 grenaded and my situation was linked to insufficient fuel supply for the amount of boost I was running (26psi) on the 190 pump. Since your boost levels are not high enough to cause these types of issues and your plugs are reading lean, I would look into the following:

1. Check voltage to the fuel pump and re-wire if necessary.
2. Make sure the stock FPR is still functioning correctly and rising at a 1:1 rate

Based on your setup, there's NO way you should be running out an injector that flows close to 700cc on an EVO III at 17psi. If you determine that the pump voltage is off, you can try a re-wire, but you may decide to put in a 255 and an FPR for better control, especially if you want to squeeze the EVO III to it's potential. You may also want to have a look at this page for equalizing fuel flow on the rail:

http://www.stevetek.com/R-FuelSys.html

Please dig into the above and let us know what you find.

Andy

Do you have any airflow numbers from this run?

Also, I would like to see the actual log, but I don't have DSMLink so it would have to be put in a text format. Also, is this the DSMLink calculated AFR or are you getting this from a wideband O2?

For starters I would defently rewire the fp. Pump flow is directly related to voltage and from the factory you will only see 11 to 12 volts. The stock fuel rail will support alot more hp then your putting down. A B&M regulator is useless all it does is allows you to increase the base fuel pressure, it doesn't fix the problem with the stock return overrun condition that happens with larger pumps. If you descide to go with the 255 pump (which shouldn't be needed for the kind of hp your making) get a proper fpr such as aeromotive. As for the plugs, it was a good idea to switch to the 7's for the kind of boost you are running. If I read your post correctly you are using an safc to tune? The above poster refers that you are using Dsmlink, if you are can you post the logs. Is that air/fuel ratio done with a wideband, it doesn't seem to be very linear. Were both pulls knocking at the same point as the "tuned" run starts to go abit lean ~5100 rpms where you say your knocking. If your running 93 have you tried a slightly less agressive air/fuel ratio ~11 to 1? Your going to be losing power up top with retarding the timing by 4 deg. Somethings defently up. Last year I ran my evoIII at 18 psi & on 94 with an 11 to 1 I have zero knock and have added 2 deg of timing from 6000 rpms up.

Congrats on all of your mods this far....

Definitely get the rewire done.
There is a guy on eBay that sells Fuel Pump Rewire Kits pretty cheap.
Here's a link. <a href = http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZhx260095>Fuel Pump Rewire Kit</a>
I bought that same kit, and it is top notch with instructions.
I emailed a few questions to him, and he responded quickly.

I bet the voltage is droping off up top causing the lean problem.
This is exactly why we are supposed to rewire our stockers just to run 16psi on the T-25.

Get an Aeromotive AFPR.
Fuel Injector Clinic sells a pretty reasonalbly priced AFPR kit with all the connections you will need to install the system and dial in your base pressure to 43.5psi.
Here's the example. <a href = http://www.fuelinjectorclinic.com/cart/AERO_FPKIT1.htm>FIC AFPR Kit</a>
I pieced my AFPR kit together with some Braided line and Black Anodized AN Fittings.
Summit racing has a ton of different AFPR's, and they can get one to you in a day or two.
They also sell all of the AN fittings that you could possibly want.

daren_p said:

If I read your post correctly you are using an safc to tune? The above poster refers that you are using Dsmlink, if you are can you post the logs.

Click to expand...

I saw the indication that he had a SAFC-II also, but he also says that he is getting his knock sum from DSMLink????

Simple reading comprehension would reveal that he is running an SAFC II and a DSMchips Chipped ECU.

I suggest straightening out the AFR curve first thing.

Yes I have dsmchips. Sorry I did state dsmlink. Mental slip. Anyhow, if you look at the A/F scale it is from 10.2 to 12.4. Yes with a NEW wideband on the dyno. This is a tight range, and when viewed in excel, it isn't squished like that (x-axis) and looking bad. However, I did tune out the 4200rpm dip.The blue line is LOW boost, and RICH. There was still knock, same timing. So it doesn't seem I'm running low on fuel ! 190lph seems to be up to the task. The spark plugs showed detonation (duh - 10 sum count), not lean. I'm thinking I had a bad tank of gas !? I'm going to try and get a splash of c-100 tonight. I talked with 2 Fluid Dynamics engineers today about the fuel rail. They asked me the inner diameter of the fuel rail and the total diameter of the injector exit holes (for one injector). Based on that, they can tell me the needed internal fuel rail plenum to cause ZERO pressure loss across 4->1 injectors. However, you guys are telling me the injector rail (which by the way may be a 1g fuel rail) shouldn't be a problem. SBR put on a 1g fuel rail because they said the greddy 660cc's wouldn't clear the 2g fuel rail. This has got me thinking.
More feedback please !
Look how rich that blue line is !

-Jaraxle

Race day in less than a month!

I put in 5 gallons of C-100 Unleaded Race Gas. The results are attached. NO KNOCK (according to boost gauge). FULL ignition timing (according to OBDII logger). Although it does fall off to 15.5, but that may be intentional (Andy?) by dsmchips ECU. This means I'm not picking up some mechanical knock, or other freakish event. I may have had a bad tank of gas. I won't know until I burn through this tank of gas now. Any more thoughts would be appreciated, including the limits of the stock fuel rail plenum (ie: #1 is lean, but #4 is not).
I was also thinking of a valve problem, causing heat to build up in the engine. I know I'm reaching, but I'm just preparing myself for if the next tank of 93 is "bad".


-Jaraxle

And no one mentioned the boost fall-off !

HighPSI TSi Guy said:

Simple reading comprehension would reveal that he is running an SAFC II and a DSMchips Chipped ECU.

Click to expand...

The original post mentioned a chip, DSMLink and an SAFC-II.......

I'm not going to give tuning advise until I find out exactly what is being used to tune the vehicle.

Drop the cocky attitude.

Jonas,

The fact that octane cleared up the knock tells us that it was real knock. Also, the chips are not calibrated to drop timing unless you're hitting enough knock on the ECU for timing retard (10 counts on a 2G). I would talk to Jeff about why you show 15.5 instead of 16.

As far as the fuel supply, I've never heard of Denso 660's not fitting in a 2G fuel rail. I think another thing that needs to be looked at is whether you have a 2G FPR on a 1G rail. Again, I don't know if this is an issue or not, but make some phone calls and see what you can dig up. Also, you still need to to get back to the basics and find out if the fuel pump is getting enough voltage, or if the FPR is dying on you.

If we don't know that, we can guess all day and not get anywhere. Drop us a line and let us know what you find.

Andy

spyderturbo007 - please don't leave me hanging cause of personallity issues. I have a dsmchips ecu for 660cc denso's, 16deg max timing. I use the AFC-II to fine tune, which I did end up taking -13% on the high end to get the red line on the charts (from -8% for the blue lines). Let me know if you guys need my afc-II settings.

I must be ignorant here or something. If the car was running that rich (in the 10's @ high rpm), doesn't that imply that the fuel pump is A-ok, and keeping up with the 289hp ? Or could just #1 be falling on it's face, and overall the car is still rich ?
Doing another datalog, after the C-100 mixed in somemore, showed 16deg solid past 6k rpm. The 15.5 might be from the MAC tools obdII logger. Not what most people use.

If the pump wasn't keeping up, wouldn't the car be leaning out ? I've read about people with that issue.
Has anyone made these kind of #'s (or better of course) with a 3" turbo-back with a CAT. Although the cat is good, maybe it still is just too much of a restriction. I was going to look into the EGR tonight. Perhaps it is "blowing" open and causing hot gases to enter the intake, thus causing knock. That actually makes sense to me.
Thanks for all your inputs. I'm set for a track-day event, and don't want to loose the dough !
Please keep this going with ideas, or experiences, or suggestions.

-Jaraxle

kinda off topic, but it looks like the richer afr at lower rpms helped your spool and low end power/torque. just a suggestion. its obvious you gained power where it matters, but it would probably be nice to pick that lower end hp back up. maybe take it down to 11.4-11.6 or something as a compro between richness and power. I know people say leaner=power, but a richer afr might be what you need in this case.

My vote is for a bad tank of gas, your fuel pump isn't close to maxxed yet and the Rail isn't even an Issue.

Just as a side note you said they installed a 1g rail on your car, what fpr are you running? The 1g & 2g have different bolt spacing, so did they mod your 2g fpr or are you now using a 1g, which has a base of 37 psi compared to the 43 psi of a 2g?

I'm curious, I realize the data in the compressed excel format will make the graph look worse but you are varying 2.2 air/fuel ratio. With my wideband I maybe vary .5, is this just because your using the safc I wouldn't think so but...?

I would like to see the log along with airflow numbers if that is possible. Also, if you could post your high throttle Ne Points along with the corresponding SAFC-II correction factors, that would help as well.

You have verified that your TPS is reading at or near, 100%? What gap are you running on your plugs?

I know for a fact and have proof that just a 190 isn't enough fuel to supply a 19-20 psi on a evoIII near redline...rewired the 190 and it doesn't lean out up top any more. I couldn't run it below 19 psi so I don't know about 17psi

rewire it and call me in the morning

Knock is back after another 93 octane tank. If the 190 wasn't keeping up, would my A/F as read by the wideband be that rich ? Am I missing something ?

-Jaraxle

I have a 190 and I too was getting knock that I couldn't seem to tune out until I finally got my chip. Now I'm
Edit: I see you're chipped already so I dunno.

DSMers,
Thanks guys for trying to help out with this. The devil is in the details ! I believe I know exactly what is going on now. I'm posting to help others.
So a final recap:

1.) No boost leak (checked first thing)
2,.) Replaced BPR6KEN with BRR7EIX (one colder, good idea, but not the problem)
3.) Added 5 gallons of C-100 to 1/2 tank of 93. Knock goes away, and timing goes to 100% ( this is the single most important step in the diagnosis, it removes mechanical / strange electrical issues in ONE shot)
3.) Fuel was NOT running lean, as I titled the post. This was shown through the wideband charts. I mislead with the title though, and my ramblings. I could make the car as rich or lean as I wanted with the AFC-II (plus dsmchips ecu). If it was, then adding fuel would not have changed the A/F on the wideband chart attached. So we are NOT running lean. Plugs read DETONTATION, not lean.
4.) Fuel rail will NOT run out at 300hp. (ie: #1 lean and #4 fine) don't bark up that tree.
5.) Knock is not created by EGR "issues". EGR was fine.
6.) Checked base timing. DEAD ON. (factory 5deg)

So what was the devilish detail ? SOOT on the bumper. Caked black combustion chamber. Took a peep when I was checking the timing on the #1 cylinder. This carbon buildup starts because your running rich. Then it causes hot spots that cause detonation. The detontation causes the timing to be retarded, which results in more carbon buildup. This evil cycle continues until your bumper is black, and you've got about 12 deg of timing at WOT !!!!

So why rich in the first place, starting this evil path ?
The AFC-II is not setup correctly. I have the low set at 10% and the high at 50% throttle position. The low throttle points are all -5% I believe. The HI start at -1% and vary until -13% from 5k to 6k, then -8% from 6.5k on. This provided a good fuel curve at WOT as shown by the red line in the charts.
So the long term fuel trims can't be correct from -5% at 10% throttle, and then -1% at 50% throttle. So I'm having a BAD rich "spell" at mid throttle positions. Got me into a world of trouble!
I'd love some recommendations, unless this should start out as a new post.
I do have a dsmchips ecu, programmed for the denso 660's.

Does the ECU go into OPEN LOOP at only 100% throttle ? 90% ? 80% ?
If so, I was thinking of changing my hi throttle point to 100,90,80 (whatever you guys say), and my low throttle point as close to that as possible. The ecu can sort out closed loop operation with the LTFT as long as it isn't getting confused like it is now. For WOT, I obviously have my AFC-II curve figured out.
My next step is to clean those chambers out, possibly add water injection, and install the 4-piston wilwoods sitting in a box in the garage ! First thing first, get the AFC-II setup right !

AFC-II settings ?

Thanks guys !
Jaraxle

Seafoam it, send Jeff the specs for a custom chip we discussed on the phone and see what happens. I've NEVER trusted the AFC and if I can run 22-24psi with zero knock on a much more aggressive tune than you have, it tells me that maybe you need to give my recommendation a shot. At best, it fixes everything and at worst, it cost you twenty bucks.

Just a thought,

Andy

Set your Throttle points to 30-35% and 80%

Would it be nuts to set the low at 80 and the hi at 90 ?
The ecu is chipped for the injectors, so it should sort everything out on it's own during closed loop.
Only WOT AFC settings I care about.
Thoughts ?

-Jaraxle